Haggle Bard - Mississippi Queen

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

Yes but Turbine seriously nerfed CC recently. You can build a "CC God," that's surely what Mississippee was always about, but you definitely need a dps element to your game now because Turbine screwed CC up bad. We are hoping they expand the CC options for bards, but its not looking good.

Mississippee was always ok though because she starts with a 16 strength anyway... so its just about playing around with some of the feats/enhancements/gear

[Maelodic]

Yes but Turbine seriously nerfed CC recently. You can build a "CC God," that's surely what Mississippee was always about, but you definitely need a dps element to your game now because Turbine screwed CC up bad. We are hoping they expand the CC options for bards, but its not looking good.

Mississippee was always ok though because she starts with a 16 strength anyway... so its just about playing around with some of the feats/enhancements/gear

So for drow (seeing as I'm cheap and don't have 32 points, and I can't stand anything that isn't elven or halfling) the stats would be:

15 str
14 con
18 cha

Right?

It's a bit tight without 32 point builds, because drows do not have a ton of synergy with their enhancements- halflings have heros companion and can help with that and elves have falchion enhancements, but with 28 pt builds, you can't build either of those with 18 starter CHA, and since healing and CC is my focus, there's a problem with that.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

So for drow (seeing as I'm cheap and don't have 32 points, and I can't stand anything that isn't elven or halfling) the stats would be:

15 str
14 con
18 cha

Right?

It's a bit tight without 32 point builds, because drows do not have a ton of synergy with their enhancements- halflings have heros companion and can help with that and elves have falchion enhancements, but with 28 pt builds, you can't build either of those with 18 starter CHA, and since healing and CC is my focus, there's a problem with that.

You are going to hate me . Just warning ya... but human is the best choice. That extra feat is huge. You get Human Versatility which can close off the 28 point disadvantage. HV can boost your to hit/damage on the dps side and your umd/perform on the heal/cc sides. HV all the way maxed on your build for the win. Usually human is boring, I'll be first to admit it, but on a bard, it pimps your bard out better than any other option when you are talking about creating a well rounded high cha bard. More haggle, more umd more perform more feats.

[Maelodic]

You are going to hate me . Just warning ya... but human is the best choice. That extra feat is huge. You get Human Versatility which can close off the 28 point disadvantage. HV can boost your to hit/damage on the dps side and your umd/perform on the heal/cc sides. HV all the way maxed on your build for the win. Usually human is boring, I'll be first to admit it, but on a bard, it pimps your bard out better than any other option when you are talking about creating a well rounded high cha bard. More haggle, more umd more perform more feats.

Ugh, I do hate everything ever right now. 14 str, 14 con, 18 CHA then?

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

Ugh, I do hate everything ever right now. 14 str, 14 con, 18 CHA then?

You can roll drow, but you'll thank me later ya didn't

As a human bard, you're spells will have a higher DC if you use your extra human bonus feat on spell focus: enchantment than the racial +1 cha a drow gets. In addition human grants you healing amplification and about 50 more hit points by end game. On a CC bard, that's a game changer.

I'd recommend using the Mississippee Queen II template I provided. Just swap out quicken feat for spell focus: enchantment feat. Later on (waaay later on), after you loot a bunch of high end gear, you may very well want to feat swap back to Quicken.

End game Stats to shoot for on a 28pt Mississippee Queen II Crowd Control haggle bard:
32 STR: 14 base + 2 tome + 6 item + 3 abishai + 1 human + 1 exceptional + 1 lotd (+ 2 rage + 2 yugo)
28 CON: 14 base + 2 tome + 3 exceptional + 6 item + 1 lotd ( + 2 rage)
46 CHA: 18 base + 5 levels + 2 tome + 3 enhancement + 1 human + 3 exceptional + 7 item + 1 lotd + 2 ship buff + 2 capstone (+ 2 yugo)

Thats exactly -2 strength from a tweaked out 32 point build of the same ilk.

Anywho, that's my case going human over drow. If you are really insistent going drow, the bard community may give you some tips (or I can) to get you set up. Another possible path is going half elf.

Any way you go, you MUST start in really enjoying your bard. If you dont know exactly why you have chosen the path you took, ask questions or stop building him. Enjoying your bard is your NUMBER ONE, most Uberlicious item you'll ever find for your bard God. And that's the straight up.

[Maelodic]

You can roll drow, but you'll thank me later ya didn't

As a human bard, you're spells will have a higher DC if you use your extra human bonus feat on spell focus: enchantment than the racial +1 cha a drow gets. In addition human grants you healing amplification and about 50 more hit points by end game. On a CC bard, that's a game changer.

I'd recommend using the Mississippee Queen II template I provided. Just swap out quicken feat for spell focus: enchantment feat. Later on (waaay later on), after you loot a bunch of high end gear, you may very well want to feat swap back to Quicken.

End game Stats to shoot for on a 28pt Mississippee Queen II Crowd Control haggle bard:
32 STR: 14 base + 2 tome + 6 item + 3 abishai + 1 human + 1 exceptional + 1 lotd (+ 2 rage + 2 yugo)
28 CON: 14 base + 2 tome + 3 exceptional + 6 item + 1 lotd ( + 2 rage)
46 CHA: 18 base + 5 levels + 2 tome + 3 enhancement + 1 human + 3 exceptional + 7 item + 1 lotd + 2 ship buff + 2 capstone (+ 2 yugo)

Thats exactly -2 strength from a tweaked out 32 point build of the same ilk.

Anywho, that's my case going human over drow. If you are really insistent going drow, the bard community may give you some tips (or I can) to get you set up. Another possible path is going half elf.

Any way you go, you MUST start in really enjoying your bard. If you dont know exactly why you have chosen the path you took, ask questions or stop building him. Enjoying your bard is your NUMBER ONE, most Uberlicious item you'll ever find for your bard God. And that's the straight up.

So I guess being hesitant to start leveling it is a problem, eh? The whole "The best crowd control is death" thing keeps going through my mind.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

So I guess being hesitant to start leveling it is a problem, eh? The whole "The best crowd control is death" thing keeps going through my mind.

Nope. Being hesitant is a wise reaction when building any toon. Being hesitant means you arent certain, and are seeking more knowledge. Thats a very good thing.

Sometimes you just have to roll what makes the best sense to you and play it. If you have fun playing to its strengths, you'll have a blast. Make changes as you go, and fit your playstyle around the game mechanics like a glove. Multitasking on a bard, the razzle dazzle of crowd control, the healing game... it's all still there.

Mississippee uses crowd control as my main weapon, she always did. I used it so much in the early and mid levels that it became her "way of life." Only recently, with changes to CC, have I taken my melee game more seriously.

Healing and crowd control are still what I do most of the time on Mississippee.

[Luxx0r]

Mississippee uses crowd control as my main weapon, she always did. I used it so much in the early and mid levels that it became her "way of life." Only recently, with changes to CC, have I taken my melee game more seriously.

What changes are you talking about? I just read the same idea around the forums, but in actual play, I can not find any significant difference.

I use one of your old Missisippi builds*, and I have been around CCing in epics (ok, just in the easy carnival ones, but I'm cheap so I don't run much more than that) with great sucess...

*Talking about old builds: should I change Empower healing for Maximize? The most elemental logic makes think that that is the way to go, but I also don't cast Greater Shout, I carry around with Heroe's Feast (I don't know why but I like this spell, and yeah I know it's not a great one). So Maximize and chage to GS, or just stay the way I'm now EH & HF?

[Maelodic]

Nope. Being hesitant is a wise reaction when building any toon. Being hesitant means you arent certain, and are seeking more knowledge. Thats a very good thing.

Sometimes you just have to roll what makes the best sense to you and play it. If you have fun playing to its strengths, you'll have a blast. Make changes as you go, and fit your playstyle around the game mechanics like a glove. Multitasking on a bard, the razzle dazzle of crowd control, the healing game... it's all still there.

Mississippee uses crowd control as my main weapon, she always did. I used it so much in the early and mid levels that it became her "way of life." Only recently, with changes to CC, have I taken my melee game more seriously.

Healing and crowd control are still what I do most of the time on Mississippee.

I don't know, I'm just trying to hit cap once so I know what I'm up against. I may or may not roll this toon after I hit cap on my wizard (which is the first I enjoy enough to really want to go higher with him), I'm just dreading rolling yet another toon to give up on it. I've gotten like 20 toons to level 7, I swear.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

What changes are you talking about? I just read the same idea around the forums, but in actual play, I can not find any significant difference.

I use one of your old Missisippi builds*, and I have been around CCing in epics (ok, just in the easy carnival ones, but I'm cheap so I don't run much more than that) with great sucess...

*Talking about old builds: should I change Empower healing for Maximize? The most elemental logic makes think that that is the way to go, but I also don't cast Greater Shout, I carry around with Heroe's Feast (I don't know why but I like this spell, and yeah I know it's not a great one). So Maximize and chage to GS, or just stay the way I'm now EH & HF?

The changes are basically how long the CC lasts (half on CC spells), and the change to OID to make it resistible. In a DDO bard's world, thats a lot of change. Me personally? I've changed my CC game very little, but the fun factor for me has diminished. There are too few CC options for bards that work at end game. This is why a lot of bards have made their voices heard on a several popular bard threads recently.

To a veteran CC specialist, little has changed. We simply adapt to the game mechanics. For the masses however, I felt I needed to provide an alternative, and answer their call for more hp, more dps options.

Once you get to the end game, I'd say quicken/maximize is the way to go. Max cha builds can even keep empower healing, since it stacks. Depends how much healing you will be doing, and how many choices you want when you do heal. Overhealing can become a big problem if you arent careful.

[Doganpc]

Drow Bards IMO:
Forget about combat and focus on songs & spells, not ideal but you won't feel starved for feats. You also won't have a whole lot to do after you buff the party. With crafting you can make specific ranged weapons (superior beatitude bow anyone?) giving you something to do. Or, Multiclass. Drow get lots of AP since they lack so much racially. Bardbarian, Bardanger and other mixes. More complicated but you can really make something that takes advantage of Drow stats.

My first toon in this game was a virtuoso path Human Bard. I let DDO set all the stats and feats and songs and just played to get a feel for the game. I eventually rerolled that character into Rogue/Wizard who will be true resurrected into a Wizard/Rogue. I have another human bard built along the original you see in this thread. Think I might roll a 14/6 Drow Bard/Ranger, TWF Rapier&Shortswords...

Dogan
Some research to do, cause I really like evasion.

[Valindria]

The changes are basically how long the CC lasts (half on CC spells), and the change to OID to make it resistible. In a DDO bard's world, thats a lot of change. Me personally? I've changed my CC game very little, but the fun factor for me has diminished. There are too few CC options for bards that work at end game. This is why a lot of bards have made their voices heard on a several popular bard threads recently.

What are you talking about? I have seen that mentioned before but the only change I remember is:

◦Otto’s Irresistible Dance: The spell's duration against players has been reduced to 3d3+3 seconds.

Unless I am mistaken it still has no save but a SR check which is the same as before. The only difference is it can not be extended and if you happen to dance (pvp or rare enemy) the duration is shorter. Please let me know what you mean.

[Backley]

What are you talking about? I have seen that mentioned before but the only change I remember is:



Unless I am mistaken it still has no save but a SR check which is the same as before. The only difference is it can not be extended and if you happen to dance (pvp or rare enemy) the duration is shorter. Please let me know what you mean.

The length is half because Metamagic Extend (which all CC Bards had) no-longer works on anything but buffs. So, the only reason to keep Extend is for longer Hastes.

I'm not sure on the 'resistible' comment is about.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

What are you talking about? I have seen that mentioned before but the only change I remember is:

Unless I am mistaken it still has no save but a SR check which is the same as before. The only difference is it can not be extended and if you happen to dance (pvp or rare enemy) the duration is shorter. Please let me know what you mean.

It mainly has to do with the death of extend. But there's more. I'd explain it to ya further in my words, but I'd be repeating much of Aashrym's great work:

Spell Changes -->

Break Enchantment now costs 25 sp. This is the current cost for bards. Please change the bard version to 20 SP to reflect an equal benefit to the changes for other casters.

Detect Secret Doors now costs 10 sp. This is the current cost for bards. Please change the bard version to 5 SP to reflect an equal benefit to the changes for other casters. I don't remember this not costing 10 SP tho, so it might not be so important.

Greater Dispel Magic now costs 30 sp. This is the current cost for bards. Please change the bard version to 25 SP to reflect an equal benefit to the changes for other casters.

Otto's Resistible Dance now costs 10 sp. This is the current cost for bards. Please change the bard version to 5 SP to reflect an equal benefit to the changes for other casters.

Remove Curse now costs 20 sp. This is the current cost for bards. Please change the bard version to 15 SP to reflect an equal benefit to the changes for other casters.

Shadow Walk now costs 30 sp. This is the current cost for bards. Please change the bard version to 25 SP to reflect an equal benefit to the changes for other casters.

Hold Person now costs 15 sp. This is the current cost for bards. Please change the bard version to 10 SP to reflect an equal benefit to the changes for other casters. This is not so useful without autohit/autocrit. A repeat save, single target, drop in melee damage with no spell damage to take advantage makes it low on the want to have list.

Hypnotism: The duration of the spell has been reduced to 6 seconds, and now lowers a target's will save by -3 for 15 seconds. This was a huge nerf for bards, IMO. 6 second mezz with a 15 second debuff kicker is very much a loss. Sleep and Deep Slumber both have lower DC's than hypno after the capstone for a similar effect to the previous. The -3 debuff is pretty poor considering the benefit of using hypnotic pattern from a scroll now that the hypnotic pattern has a fixed duration and auto debuff. Hypnotic pattern also doesn't replace the old hypno because it's not an enchantment. My ability to use SP mezzing was reduced with this change. The mezz is 6 seconds not 8 per in game description. The weakened will is 8 seconds, not 15 per the release notes used in the OP.

Suggestion: Duration has been changed to 30 seconds + 2 seconds per level. The shorter duration and lack of extend makes this less attractive for a control effect. Many creatures don't have the ability to deal as much damage as they can take. It's still pretty useful if the affected creature can take aggro or if we can hit a caster with it.

Fear: Cost reduced to 20 sp. Necrotic energy now slightly slows the target's efforts to escape. This is the current cost for bards. Please change the bard version to 15 SP to reflect an equal benefit to the changes for other casters.

Mass Suggestion: The duration has been changed to 30 seconds + 2 seconds per level. Spell resistance now applies. This spell took a fair nerf too. It's still useful, but it's best benefit (bypassing SR) is gone.

Otto’s Irresistible Dance: The spell's duration against players has been reduced to 3d3+3 seconds. Another nerf. The duration on this is pretty low for a high level spell. Fortunately the duration listed there is not accurate. I average about 15 seconds and that's a bit better. According to the SRD this spell should be longer and provoke attacks of opportunity. I would recommend a 3% non stacking chance to doublestrike the target to simulate the AoO DDO doens't have, if possible.

Greater Shout: Cost is now 15 sp. The spell is now affected by Maximize and Empower. The casting animation is now faster. Why do bards pay the same cost for a level 6 bard spell as a mage pays for a level 8 mage spells? The bard version should cost 12 SP and is easily justified by the lower DC which results in less damage and less stuns.

EDIT: Sound burst was missed in the spell pass and costs bards the same for sound burst as it does for greater shout (thank you Cahira). Please consider adjusting this to a base cost of 6 SP to fall in line with other sonic spells.

One of the advantages of playing a bard is a lower cost on casting some spells. Giving everyone else that lower cost takes another advantage away from the bard.


Bards received no extend on offensive spells plus duration nerfs on offensive spells. The debuffs are expensive to apply on top of CC spells.

There is no dot, no better damage because sonic spells didn't get the boost a lot of other damage spells have; they just have a reduced cost. That leaves a poor spell still a poor spell.

Bards used to have the unique advantage of being the only class to have enhancements to sonic damage. Not only is that no longer true now sorcerers actually have a bigger bonus to it than bards. One more advantage lost.

With OID, more mobs have been introduced into the game in recent years that are immune to all mind effects. This is contrary to the whole purpose of Ottos Irresistible Dance. That's all I meant. Either the mob is immune, or the spell is irresistible. It cannot and should not be both. Grant it, its kinda old news, but when you stack the most recent time limit nerf on top of it, it becomes obvious what the intent of the devs are. Decisions like this affect gameplay, and can really take the fizzle out of playing a toon that "specializes" in crowd control.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

The length is half because Metamagic Extend (which all CC Bards had) no-longer works on anything but buffs. So, the only reason to keep Extend is for longer Hastes.

Thanks Backley, should have mentioned that.

[Valindria]

What mobs are immune besides redname and greater?

[Maelodic]

... Well based on that I don't think I'll roll a bard at all. Supergimps haven't made them better than anything else at crowd control, and damage spells don't work as well anymore, at least by comparison. There's less and less reasons to roll a bard. I think for now I'm going to watch and wait and see how this develops for U11.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

What mobs are immune besides redname and greater?

Lets see if I can name a few off the top of my head:
Giants in Prey of the Hunter
Minotaurs in Madstone Crater
Amrath in its entirety

Blanket immunities to mind-affecting spells are straight BS. The blanket immunities for mobs in some areas were changed to allow death effects (to help casters) but charms/compulsions immunities were left on. Total BS.

[NaturalHazard]

... Well based on that I don't think I'll roll a bard at all. Supergimps haven't made them better than anything else at crowd control, and damage spells don't work as well anymore, at least by comparison. There's less and less reasons to roll a bard. I think for now I'm going to watch and wait and see how this develops for U11.

well bards are especially awesome if you run a lot of raids. And CC isnt the only trick in the bards book. If your in a guild a lot of them will thank you for rolling a bard. A bard is one of the best team player classes, but they can also solo pretty well, a lot of people would be supprised.

anyway if you want crowd control and damage spells roll a wizard.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

anyway if you want crowd control and damage spells roll a wizard.

That's pretty much the answer... as much as I'd love to disagree with ya. Far more CC variety, as sad as that sounds.

Now to those who enjoy multitasking and understand CC is only PART of a buffing/healing/curing/melee solution, bards are still quite great and unique.

Bards still are a very useful component to any quest, raid or epic. They still are the ultimate team player.