Haggle Bard - Mississippi Queen

[quitzquizar]

Well i was interested in making up a haggle bard, because having shard bank is a great way to get more money selling and saving money buying certain items (potions, etc) for other characters. So I planned my bard around this build to see how it worked out.

As you get very high levels in bard that haggle skill works wonders, if you can approach 100 haggle which i believe would be 50% in selling/buying (200 haggle would be free hehe), you can greatly help your bank account balance.

Now saying that, i found that a normal high charisma bard of this build is still fine with haggle without gimping it in the enhancement department, and your opinions would be appreciated.

To me, picking the negotiator feat before level 20 (changing it out when your bard is complete) and picking haggle skill point bonus also isn't good. Once you reach level 20 anyone can change their bard into a haggle bard after a while with some enhancement changes and a feat change. Until then, your bard is still great with the haggle skill, and having 50 haggle or 44 haggle isnt a huge difference.

So what i did, and i think it worked great. Play your bard as a regular bard, ignoring the extra feats/enhancements that give you the +6 extra haggle (+4 haggle enhancements/negotiator skill,etc). Feats are hard to come by anyway and you will benefit much more from a quicken feat, or extend during your bards life than +2 haggle. Those extra 4 enhancement points do much better in another bard area. MM a quickened disco ball, or +2 haggle.. tough choice..

Then once you hit high levels you can haggle bard your way to that buying/selling machine that you can use to supply endless potions/wands to your other players. Im sure many do this anyway, but just giving some advice to those who want to make a high haggle bard.. a medium haggle bard does just fine and you won't really notice much difference when you reach like 50-60 haggling, and instead you have 44-54 haggle. And then when you hit level 20ish, you can re-arrange what you want if you really want to try and reach 83-90 haggling.

I totally regretted taking negotiator feat instead of a all-game worthwhile feat like quicken/extend. I quickly put my +4 haggle enhancements into something else to help my bard survive until the point where he could approach higher levels. I did lear a lot from this post on building a haggle bard and the skills and such to take. With someone with a shared bank account, i think any newer player should have a nice haggle bard to increase your profit on items and to buy cheaper things for your other characters (bags, potions, wands, etc).

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

Well i was interested in making up a haggle bard, because having shard bank is a great way to get more money selling and saving money buying certain items (potions, etc) for other characters. So I planned my bard around this build to see how it worked out.

I will disagree that you wouldnt notice the differences in haggle. For all the stuff you buy and sell in this game, every haggle point truly does make quite a difference.

There's many more build options/gear available now that wasnt available back when Mississippee was originally built. There's nothing wrong at all leaving haggle feats/enhancements etc out of your build until you reach 20.

I support building quicken/maximize instead of haggle stuff as well. However, I've done very fine without either. It's all in what your goals are. I love seeing all the different ways people build spellsinger bards based off of Mississippee.

I haven't regretted a single move with Mississippee, and if I had a chance to do it again, I'd do it the exact same way.

[Quikster]

Much easier to reach uber high haggle nowadays. Crowd control is still a fun and effective way to mitigate damage for many, and even though Turbine has sought to nerf CC seemingly each opportunity they get, I still find myself having a blast hitting my spells and healing my parties. Spellsinger II is really nice.

I didnt want to tie down my melee bard with any haggle feats/enhancements/gear.

So you are spot on, just depends what you want to do and what gear you go after.

Very understandable. Taking all the haggle stuff does stifle melee possibilities. My haggle bard isnt my melee, I have 2 others for that. My hagglebard is just that, my hagglebard, though it can melee as well. If I ever get around to crafting a hitpoint item ill hover right around 500 HP buffed. Just wanted people to know that hagglebard =! spellsinger persay. Not that spellsingers suck, just wanted people to know that they can make a warchanter and have a good haggle. Heck my max str melee warchanter haggles up into the 60's as well.

[Quikster]

I will disagree that you wouldnt notice the differences in haggle. For all the stuff you buy and sell in this game, every haggle point truly does make quite a difference.

There's many more build options/gear available now that wasnt available back when Mississippee was originally built. There's nothing wrong at all leaving haggle feats/enhancements etc out of your build until you reach 20.

I support building quicken/maximize instead of haggle stuff as well. However, I've done very fine without either. It's all in what your goals are. I love seeing all the different ways people build spellsinger bards based off of Mississippee.

I haven't regretted a single move with Mississippee, and if I had a chance to do it again, I'd do it the exact same way.

Yeah it doesnt matter that much. Ive played from 1 to cap with haggle feats/enhancements. Its just not that big of a deal. To some respecing is more costly then it is to others. You can go either way.

Oh and to the poster you responded to. I have extend on my bard, and have never really felt I needed quicken. I went the maximize route instead. But to each his own.

[Luxx0r]

First of all: Thank you Leslie for this great build!!!!

I just got to level 14 with my little bard and I'm having a blast playing it.

But also I got lots of doubts for the next levels and I would love some comments on things that caught my eyes looking this thread.

Enhancements section:

Arrrrggggg!!! So many and so few points ;(

I just took a look to your last build and all this questions came to my mind:

-Not Human Adaptability IV or Song magic IV: ok, maybe the effect is too little to spend 4 points, but missing Song Magic IV seems as a hit to the healing part.
-Not Bard Charisma III: auch! It's very expensive but it seems wort it, or maybe not?
-Inspired attack III: is this really needed? Inspired damage, I have no doubt, but attack bonus at double enhancement point cost?
-On the other hand: Scroll and wand mastery IV, the last 15% costs 4 points so... am I going to spend so many scrolls and wands to really value it?
-No lingering song: I like this one, but I clearly see that there is not too much spare room. Thinking in the spellsong vigor, it appears to me as a good idea, but maybe I'm just a lazy and slow player.

Spells section:

Some spells I really don't understand:

-Glitterdust: When do you cast this and what are trying to obtain with it? (ok, I just not tried it so my ignorance can come from this)
-Break enchantment: There is the freedom song, so I don't really know for what you use this
-Greater dispel magic: Same as above, where and whom cast you this on? there are not too many good level 5 spells, so maybe it's the lesser evil
-Mind fog: the last one. I really I'm unable to understand this one, you cast a fog that lowers Will save but mob gets a will save to negate, so if it's going to fail a will save, would not it be better to cast a suggestion or something more dangerous?

Well that was lotsa doubts from an aspiring bard in training

[Nephilia]

-Glitterdust: When do you cast this and what are trying to obtain with it? (ok, I just not tried it so my ignorance can come from this)

Is the only bard spell effective against undead! its effect is to turn ghosts/wraits visible and blind all mobs as well!

-Mind fog: the last one. I really I'm unable to understand this one, you cast a fog that lowers Will save but mob gets a will save to negate, so if it's going to fail a will save, would not it be better to cast a suggestion or something more dangerous?

Like Simbol of persuasion mobs have to roll a save each time they enter in the fog!
and a -10 will could means even that undead should not reduce to half damage from mass healing spell

[Backley]

-Not Human Adaptability IV or Song magic IV: ok, maybe the effect is too little to spend 4 points, but missing Song Magic IV seems as a hit to the healing part.

I took Human Adaptability IV, just cause I'm a Haggle maniac. Only fit in Song Magic III.

-Not Bard Charisma III: auch! It's very expensive but it seems wort it, or maybe not?

I took Bard Charisma III.

-Inspired attack III: is this really needed? Inspired damage, I have no doubt, but attack bonus at double enhancement point cost?

I don't think Inspired Attack is needed at all. Only took Inspired Attack I because it is required for Spell Singer.

Note that other bards' Inspire Courage will over-write yours if they have more Inspired Attack than you do, even if their Inspire Damage and/or duration is lower than yours. You re-singing does not work either (your song is ignored).

-On the other hand: Scroll and wand mastery IV, the last 15% costs 4 points so... am I going to spend so many scrolls and wands to really value it?

You will use hundreds of Heal scrolls per month. Very worth it.

-No lingering song: I like this one, but I clearly see that there is not too much spare room. Thinking in the spellsong vigor, it appears to me as a good idea, but maybe I'm just a lazy and slow player.

I took Lingering Song II.

-Glitterdust: When do you cast this and what are trying to obtain with it? (ok, I just not tried it so my ignorance can come from this)

I took this, but hardly ever use it. If/when they finish fixing the 'dancing or knocked-down mobs move around if they are blinded' bugs, I would probably use it much more. Sneak attacks for your rogue friends and 50% miss chance for everyone is nice.

-Break enchantment: There is the freedom song, so I don't really know for what you use this

Song of Freedom is single-target, Friend-only. I use Break Enchantment to clear enemy firewalls/blade barriers/ice storms.

-Greater dispel magic: Same as above, where and whom cast you this on? there are not too many good level 5 spells, so maybe it's the lesser evil

Dispel Death Ward on the big skelle in Reclaiming Memories and then one whack with a Disruption weapon kills it. Stuff like that. And yes, no other useful level 5 spells. (summon monster up to VI can be purchased on scrolls, and Shadow Walk doesn't stack with/is slower than Haste).

-Mind fog: the last one. I really I'm unable to understand this one, you cast a fog that lowers Will save but mob gets a will save to negate, so if it's going to fail a will save, would not it be better to cast a suggestion or something more dangerous?

1 higher DC than Otto's Sphere of Dancing and they have to fail each time they enter. Stack 'em up.

[Luxx0r]

-snip-

Thanks for all the tips and info, most of them I didn't know.

*runs to mind-fog-dance-to-death enemies*

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

First of all: Thank you Leslie for this great build!!!! ...snip...

You're welcomed Luxx Beckley did a fantastic job answering your questions. I'll add a few things as well.

Human Versatility is your haggle and UMD. You dont need it for the UMD because your UMD is already the uber. However to eek out all the haggle possible, naturally HV IV one of the things to max.

Song magic III is fine. IV is not necessary imo. Quicken/maximize or Quicken/empower healing make great combos.

Bard CHA II or III? Only even numbers matter. So this is reliant solely on the other gear you find and/or craft. So, CHA II may be all you need.

Scroll and wand mastery IV. I love it. Its just guaranteed that you will use scrolls. This ones a non negotiable in my opi.

Lingering song. Meh. If you keep your eye on the ball, this ones almost always useless. This one's a quality of life issue, and a very popular one at that.. I consider it unnecessary, but understand it's justification.

Glitterdust is great. Very underused. It's a great spell to stack on top of your other CC... makes a great door stop spell. Works in so many different ways and on so many different mobs, even undead.

Mindfog's weakness is of course its a will save. Thats ok, its another will save they need to make. I love to stack my CC. And Mindfog makes Ottos (and any other will based spell) just a tad bit more dangerous, and that makes it worthy enough to earn a spot in my arsenal of spells.

[brian14]

Do you actually wear your +6 CHA skills greensteel item? As opposed to just putting it on when haggling?

If the former, what exactly is this item? Along same notes, what non-GS accessories in your opinion should Bard 20 have while adventuring -- and conversely what space does it leave for GS?

[Tuney]

I would personaly keep it on , it is 150 extra SP not gained anywhere. Single shard it is 3 clicks of level 16 haste and Air guard (Which I find useful) or a free res clicky and the guard... meh. Double shard It is a Lightning strike guard which is always fun to see go off.

Also usful if/when you die or get neg leveled and need to eather use 'high level scrolls' for some reason.

[brian14]

So WHICH item is it? Boots, belt, helm?

[Tuney]

My bard at 20 uses Air guard cha helm , Fire GS HP/Dex Item , One of the bard necks , Epic cloak of Night/Epic Phalarian Mirror cloak , an Amarath belt, Matching ring ToD ring , Kormor's ring , the giant hold Gloves and +6 dex boots...

I think that is what I am going to use... if I ever get back to 20 hehe

[Samadhi]

You're welcomed Luxx Beckley did a fantastic job answering your questions. I'll add a few things as well.

Human Versatility is your haggle and UMD. You dont need it for the UMD because your UMD is already the uber. However to eek out all the haggle possible, naturally HV IV one of the things to max.

Song magic III is fine. IV is not necessary imo. Quicken/maximize or Quicken/empower healing make great combos.

Bard CHA II or III? Only even numbers matter. So this is reliant solely on the other gear you find and/or craft. So, CHA II may be all you need.

Scroll and wand mastery IV. I love it. Its just guaranteed that you will use scrolls. This ones a non negotiable in my opi.

Lingering song. Meh. If you keep your eye on the ball, this ones almost always useless. This one's a quality of life issue, and a very popular one at that.. I consider it unnecessary, but understand it's justification.

Glitterdust is great. Very underused. It's a great spell to stack on top of your other CC... makes a great door stop spell. Works in so many different ways and on so many different mobs, even undead.

Mindfog's weakness is of course its a will save. Thats ok, its another will save they need to make. I love to stack my CC. And Mindfog makes Ottos (and any other will based spell) just a tad bit more dangerous, and that makes it worthy enough to earn a spot in my arsenal of spells.

Have to disagree with two points here.

Lingering Song - I am in the minority on this one, I am well aware, but consider the typical TOD end fight is X minutes. The difference between having a maxed out inspire courage (no need to resing; therefore allowing more time fight/heal/kitesully/etc) versus having to resing (which usually means lower DPS b/c I AM kiting sully and therefore can't spend the time to resing) is worth noting. Again, quality of life issue is a good way to phrase it, and I am well aware I'm in the minority opinion on this one, but I consider longer songs one of the strongest reasons to go pure anymore - especially with even more songs available, there just isn't enough time to spend singing when other things need done.

Scroll Mastery IV vs Song Magic IV - Using scrolls is not mandatory by any stretch of the imagination. I do over 90% of my healing on my bards with my mana, and only use scrolls when **** goes way sour, or for main-tank healing for a marathon. The benefit of having better mana-healing (guaranteed to be in use) over better scroll healing (certainly not guaranteed to be necessary) just makes far more sense. Scroll mastery I? Awesome. Scroll mastery II? Only take it if I am running out of options. Song magic IV? Absolutely on all 3 bards. I find this to be far less negotiable if you are planning on occupying any sort of healer slot. Most endgame healing is done by masses; single target is just too slow; and giving up better masses for higher scroll usage seems like chasing your own tail.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

Have to disagree with two points here.

Lingering Song - quality of life issue is a good way to phrase it

It is. It's nice to have, however so few situations "need" a longer song than whats granted. I prefer to use my points elsewhere.

Scroll Mastery IV vs Song Magic IV -

When posted like Ali vs Frasier, its seams clear, doesnt it I think I'd like to describe my decision in another fashion, in lieu of how you phrased it. For zergers the choice is clear, you'd want Song Magic IV. However if the bard runs in groups that don't tend to zerg, then Wand/Scroll Mastery III and IV garners serious consideration. For example, I STILL carry wands for healing on the run, and lower hp toons. I will also use my scroll resources in guild and GOOD pugs in between fighting. Naturally, Song Magic is where the real healing comes into play. I'd never recommend against taking a single level, however I feel comfortable healing where I'm at with III, and have other points well distributed (in my opinion). If you are playing Epic everyday, then thats another good reason to take Song Magic IV.

Song Magic IV is grand for end game healing, but I'd ensure you really need it. I haven't found the need. If I do add it (and eventually, I can even see doing so), it will not be in place of my maxed out Wand and Scroll Mastery line.

You raised two good points Samadhi.

[muffinlad]

Running a Drow Haggle Bard (no +4 Human Virs), and with House D Potions I go to a 89 Haggle. With the Yugoloth potions, I could squeese out a +2 cha....but they are pretty pricey. Has anyone figured out how much you have to be selling/buing in that 15 min time span to make it worth your while?

muffinhaggler.

[Backley]

Running a Drow Haggle Bard (no +4 Human Virs), and with House D Potions I go to a 89 Haggle. With the Yugoloth potions, I could squeese out a +2 cha....but they are pretty pricey. Has anyone figured out how much you have to be selling/buing in that 15 min time span to make it worth your while?

muffinhaggler.

What's the exact cost at a specific Haggle for one of these Yugoloth potions? I don't have the favor to check myself.

> Essence of Seduction
+2 stacking Charisma
+8 Fortitude save against Poison (+4 after penalty)
-4 Fortitude save

http://ddowiki.com/page/Favor#The_Yugoloth says "for about 900 pp each."

http://ddowiki.com/page/Yugoloth_Mercenary_Potions shows them with a base price of 500pp.

If I assume they are sold like a vendor, where:
Buy Price = (Base Price)*(Store Markup)*(1-0.005*Haggle)

Most Vendors have a Store Markup of 1.2, but the range known to me is 1.0-4.0.
If the "about 900 pp each" figure was with a Haggle of 0, that puts the Store Markup at 1.8

So, with Haggle of 85 (I'm guessing it isn't worth-while to use House D Potions to buy Yugoloth Potions for this example), they should cost you 517.5pp each. Do they?

Essence of Seduction = +2 CHA = +1 Haggle = 0.25% better selling price to Pawn Broker.
517.5pp / 0.0025 = 207,000pp.

You need to sell more than 207,000pp (base price) of items to the Pawn Brokers to break-even on a Yugo pot. So, 17x 12.8kpp base price weapons would do it. A pretty big pile of loot, but possible.

Essence of Seduction = +2 CHA = +1 Haggle = 0.6% better buying price from usual vendors.
517.5pp / 0.006 = 86,250pp.

You need to buy more than 86,250pp (base price) of items from the Vendors to break-even on a Yugo pot. So, 5.25x stacks of 100 Heal scrolls (16.5kpp base price per stack) would do it. Entirely doable.

[NaturalHazard]

what types of armour would you suggest getting for this build, i was getting blue scales im halfway there, but I thought, seems like a waste for this charactor? what are your thoughts?

[Backley]

what types of armour would you suggest getting for this build, i was getting blue scales im halfway there, but I thought, seems like a waste for this charactor? what are your thoughts?

I wear Dragontouched Shroud most of the time (currently just +1 exceptional CON, need to work on it more), but also swap over to Breastplate of Destruction sometimes.

[Zero_Tolerance]

What is the reason for Spell Pen feat at lvl9 in the build on first page? Is this really necessary that early? [if at all]