Haggle Bard - Mississippi Queen

[Quikster]

[COLOR=Yellow] I'd like to hear from High-CHA warchanters (I see you! ). What would you change?

Mine is basically a max cha warchanter 34 pt human bard. TR'd from drow bard.

All haggle feats/enhancements, past life bard. All the rest of my build points went to str/con. I usually run around 28 str and 420 hp's. Haggle currently maxes out at 97 with buffs i get myself (I use a second acct for bard song and monk buff when I'm buying a lot) I need a few more pieces of gear to hit 100.

Not my favorite bard to dps with, though I do melee raid bosses etc with her. Once I can finally make my SoS epic Ill prolly melee a bit more with her.

Not much different from your original build other than I went warchanter.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

Mine is basically a max cha warchanter 34 pt human bard. TR'd from drow bard.

All haggle feats/enhancements, past life bard. All the rest of my build points went to str/con. I usually run around 28 str and 420 hp's. Haggle currently maxes out at 97 with buffs i get myself (I use a second acct for bard song and monk buff when I'm buying a lot) I need a few more pieces of gear to hit 100.

Not my favorite bard to dps with, though I do melee raid bosses etc with her. Once I can finally make my SoS epic Ill prolly melee a bit more with her.

Not much different from your original build other than I went warchanter.

Awesome! Thanks for your insight Quik.

[Zenako]

Leslie, not only will the next tier of PrE's be kicking in, but we might also need to see how the new races factor into the equation. Half Orc Warchanter? Half Elf Spell Singer? Until all the racial perks and enhancement options are known, we might be sitting on an entire paradigm shift for what makes the best XYZ build.

El has dropped a few hints to date, enough to whet the curousity, but not enough to really plan around.

A Half Orc Warchanter has a sort of visceral appeal to it, even if it is not uber... especially if you could substitute Intimidate for Haggle when dealing with those pesky wimpy vendors...

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

Leslie, not only will the next tier of PrE's be kicking in, but we might also need to see how the new races factor into the equation. Half Orc Warchanter? Half Elf Spell Singer? Until all the racial perks and enhancement options are known, we might be sitting on an entire paradigm shift for what makes the best XYZ build.

El has dropped a few hints to date, enough to whet the curousity, but not enough to really plan around.

A Half Orc Warchanter has a sort of visceral appeal to it, even if it is not uber... especially if you could substitute Intimidate for Haggle when dealing with those pesky wimpy vendors...

Haha. Yeah, Im in no rush to be the 1st to BUILD. I will be amongst the first the PLAN. Its all about the implemenation, so I will wait to until release AND until after I play around with everything before I make any concrete decisions.

The Mississippee King build I just posted was just a mockup, a first draft. Just throwing something on paper. Also would like the community to weigh in on it as well, but not until AFTER we get more facts. I will not post it in its own thread until a bit after U7 releases.

A final version will probably be heavier on the haggle (just because haggle bards are supposed to be gimp and I love breaking thru the tall tales and watching self proclaimed elite arm chair generals eat their words!!)

Like all of my bard builds, it will focus on FUN, be EASY for anyone to build, and be a master at one or two different functions, all while needing very little-hard-to-get gear to play.

Thanks to the Dev team's hard work, U7 is going to be an exciting time for bards, come on El crack on that whip!!

[Aschbart]

I have not read the entire thread so forgive me if I'm posting a idea someone else brought up before:

There is one thing that I didn't like about the original build, and that is that there are not enough AP to max out Inspire Attack on top of all the other stuff. So I took a close look, and decided that Virtuoso might be easier to fit in, as with Negotiator we've alrady packed a prereq feat. Also, the Virtuoso Enthrall will help to get past Will saves, so you could stack Enthrall, then Mind Fog, and then throw whatever distraction you wa....

ooooh pretty!



The following build has all of Bard Charisma, Inspire Attack, Inspire Damage, Human Versatility, Haggle, and Wand & Scroll Mastery maxed, and it can affect Undead and Constructs as well. (note I didn't take any skills, they're obvious anyway):

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.5.1
DDO Character Planner Home Page

Level 20 Neutral Good Human Female
(20 Bard) 
Hit Points: 180
Spell Points: 786 
BAB: 15\15\20\25\25
Fortitude: 8
Reflex: 11
Will: 11

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
(32 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 20)
Strength             16                    16
Dexterity             8                     8
Constitution         14                    14
Intelligence          8                     8
Wisdom                8                     8
Charisma             18                    29

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Skills         Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)            (Level 20)
Level 1 (Bard)
Feat: (Human Bonus) Greater Spell Focus: Enchantment
Feat: (Selected) Spell Focus: Enchantment


Level 2 (Bard)


Level 3 (Bard)
Feat: (Selected) Extend Spell


Level 4 (Bard)


Level 5 (Bard)


Level 6 (Bard)
Feat: (Selected) Negotiator


Level 7 (Bard)


Level 8 (Bard)


Level 9 (Bard)
Feat: (Selected) Empower Healing Spell


Level 10 (Bard)


Level 11 (Bard)


Level 12 (Bard)
Feat: (Selected) Spell Penetration


Level 13 (Bard)


Level 14 (Bard)


Level 15 (Bard)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Spell Penetration


Level 16 (Bard)


Level 17 (Bard)


Level 18 (Bard)
Feat: (Selected) Skill Focus: Haggle


Level 19 (Bard)


Level 20 (Bard)
Enhancement: Bard Extra Song I
Enhancement: Bard Extra Song II
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Attack I
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Attack II
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Attack III
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Damage I
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Damage II
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Damage III
Enhancement: Bard Lingering Song I
Enhancement: Bard Music of Makers
Enhancement: Bard Music of the Dead
Enhancement: Bard Virtuoso I
Enhancement: Bard Musical Prodigy
Enhancement: Human Adaptability Charisma I
Enhancement: Human Versatility I
Enhancement: Human Versatility II
Enhancement: Human Versatility III
Enhancement: Human Versatility IV
Enhancement: Bard Haggle I
Enhancement: Bard Haggle II
Enhancement: Bard Haggle III
Enhancement: Bard Haggle IV
Enhancement: Bard Perform I
Enhancement: Bard Perform II
Enhancement: Bard Charisma I
Enhancement: Bard Charisma II
Enhancement: Bard Charisma III
Enhancement: Bard Wand Mastery I
Enhancement: Bard Wand Mastery II
Enhancement: Bard Wand Mastery III
Enhancement: Bard Wand Mastery IV

P.S.: There's exactly 1 AP left with all these enhancements taken, and I really don't know what to drop when and if I want to incorporate Virtuoso II as well...

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

I have not read the entire thread so forgive me if I'm posting a idea someone else brought up before:

There is one thing that I didn't like about the original build, and that is that there are not enough AP to max out Inspire Attack on top of all the other stuff. So I took a close look, and decided that Virtuoso might be easier to fit in, as with Negotiator we've alrady packed a prereq feat. Also, the Virtuoso Enthrall will help to get past Will saves, so you could stack Enthrall, then Mind Fog, and then throw whatever distraction you wa....

ooooh pretty!

Nicely done! Mississippee Queen would make a great virtuoso build.

However, I prefer the spellsinger pre by a large margin. Also, will saves as is are no problem. Cant remember last time I failed a will save.

Good point on the song line, will be modernizing the enhancements to the new "current game" once U7 drops. Personally, many have just removed a few haggle enhancements (haggle III & IV, just 2 pts of haggle) to fit in max inspire attack.

[LEELOONA]

You stated in another post :

It is? Thanks for the news brief. I started with 17 con. Silly two weapon wabbits (who waste points in dex, hehe)..... With planned gear, fully raged and raid buffed I will tip the scale in the 675-800 hp range. Now, if I shave off 100 points, most pure bards still can't touch that. Most pure bards are in the 300-450 range. I don't care that a pure bard... can... come close. The fact of the matter is most don't. Most are built completely different. (Yes there are 500+ pure bards, but they are quite rare)

Here's what I did

28 CON 17 + 2 tome + 1 litany + 1 human + 1 exceptional + 6 item (+2 insight)
+4 barbarian rage + 2 rage spell + 8 double madstone + 8 scourge + 2 yugo + 2 store = 28+18 = 54 CONSTITUTION

344 levels, +2 con tome, enhancements
+
320 - fully raged, full madstone, raid buffed, burst/situational con
--------------------
664

Some gear/favor boosts anyone can get

10 - Draconic Vitality (Gianthold Favor)
20 - Minos Legens (Toughness/Heavy Fort Hat)
30 - Greater False Life
45 - Greensteel Item
20 - Yugoloth Potion Secret Effect
--------------------
125

789 burst situational

unrealistic: (boosts like 60 - Triple Scourge Choker Proc is possible but unrealistic, so I stopped at 789)

Whenever someone tells me something is impossible, it better be, because if it isn't, I will gleefully find a way to make it possible.
Now, when's the last time you saw a pure bard of any caliber walking around with this much CON/hitpoints? Mixed builds can do this if they make the time to acquire the gear and synergise.

Very important: This example is in no way meant to demean pure bards. Pure bards can be amazing at what they do. I build and recommend them all the time. However, this is to show that if geared properly, mixed classed bards can be a very, very valuable addition to any party. Personally, HP and DPS in the range I'm working with is worth more than +1 party dps, but thats the uniqueness and beauty of being a bard in my eyes, EVERYONE can have a difference of opinion, and still be great bards.

Leslie, I really like your build as it is.

So my question is the following. How could I get more HP with the Missippee Queen build/gear ? And what are your HP on her, Leslie ?

From what I can see, I would really miss any feat this build offers in order to take thoughness. And the ability raises in charisma, well .. unless I do a lesser reincarnation ...


10 - Draconic Vitality (Gianthold Favor)
20 - Minos Legens (Toughness/Heavy Fort Hat)
30 - Greater False Life
45 - Greensteel Item
--------------------------
105 Hit points equipment + 180 build = 285 hit points

What else could I plan for without loosing to much charisma ?

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

You stated in another post :

Leslie, I really like your build as it is. So my question is the following. How could I get more HP with the Missippee Queen build/gear ?

Yeah, the build I was referring to in that other thread was my warchanter, Genghis Khan. I was just posting his robust HP numbers. Thats a totally different build, built to do massive amounts of melee.

Mississippee Queen was built for totally different reasons. My concept was three-fold:

* One is maximum profit for my guild and myself.
* Two, was to have fun dominating at crowd controlling.
* Three was to be able to heal, taking the place as the party's only healer when requested.

Unlike many spellsingers, Miss is constantly busy setting up the mobs for the melees and doing above average healing wile taking very little damage. She makes an amazing contribution to guild based runs and well behaved pugs. I can use my CC to assist the party or to set up kills myself.

Toughness is really recommended nowadays. (I'd probably shave off the negotiator feat)

There is a ton of gear that can be crafted or found that can boost hit points

Here's a little HP math for you, since you asked --

Con 14 + 3 tome + 6 Item + 3 Exceptional + 1 Litany + 1 Human = 28 CON

120 Bard
020 Heroic
010 Draconic
180 Constitution
030 Racial
030 GFL
045 Greensteel item (or get out to Reavers Refuge and make some elemental HP DT armor! Careful these 2 do NOT stack!!)
022 Toughness
020 Minos Helm
----------
477 Badda bing.

* Greensteel Bracers - Concordiant Opposition (45Hps, +6 WIS)

[LEELOONA]

Nice indeed ! I really like the concept.

I will switch the Feat negotiator (15) for toughness + enhancements Racial toughness II.
I was afraid I would loose to much charisma, for instance with the "wrong" gear, in exchange for more Hit points.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

Nice indeed ! I really like the concept.

I will switch the Feat negotiator (15) for toughness + enhancements Racial toughness II.
I was afraid I would loose to much charisma, for instance with the "wrong" gear, in exchange for more Hit points.

Yeah Mississippee was built for fun & profit, plain & simple!

Enjoy the build!!


PS: FURTHER OPTIONS down the road: definitely don't drop charisma. End game alternatives can even include maximize/quicken for the two spell pen feats. If you start running lots of epics (there's a lot more epic content then there was when I first built Miss!, its hard to argue against maximize/quicken now at end game. Some may opt to ditch extend, allowing you to keep spell pen I. So many ways to go!! Id run with original build first however, with toughness fix. Roll all the way to level 20. Heck you can then TR and go 16 str 16 con 18 cha and build in serious DPS in addition to your CC/Healing/haggling prowess!!)

[NaturalHazard]

I went with this build cause my main is a melee toon i wanted to do something different and experiance a different playstlye, i has bored with meleeing. But at level 10 i find most of the time im just the crack dealer and I join in melee a lot to speed things a lot. Also im the emergency healer when the cleric/fs has an oppsie moment. Oh yeah i have toughness instead of negotiator. I was going to ask if there was anyway to squeeze 2monk or 2 rogue into this build as evasion is nice all that aoe stuff flung around hurts but its prob not viable, first even though bards get reflex as a high save, it prob wont be worth it without considerable investment in dex? Also the loss of the capstone and -2 spell casting levels will hurt spell pen and spell dc too much?

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

I went with this build cause my main is a melee toon i wanted to do something different and experiance a different playstlye, i has bored with meleeing. But at level 10 i find most of the time im just the crack dealer and I join in melee a lot to speed things a lot. Also im the emergency healer when the cleric/fs has an oppsie moment. Oh yeah i have toughness instead of negotiator. I was going to ask if there was anyway to squeeze 2monk or 2 rogue into this build as evasion is nice all that aoe stuff flung around hurts but its prob not viable, first even though bards get reflex as a high save, it prob wont be worth it without considerable investment in dex? Also the loss of the capstone and -2 spell casting levels will hurt spell pen and spell dc too much?

Mississippee Queen is a playstyle choice, as much as its an economic choice. The capstone plays right into one of the main strengths of the build. Miss' main weapon is CC spells. Miss is crowd controlling almost all the time, constantly finding ways to line up the baddies for the tanks to drop. If that's not fun for you, you'll have problems playing this build.

For me, crowd control is like a psychological drug, I can do it for 5 minutes, but my guildies tell me I've been doing it for hours!!

I would never recommend a mix-classed CC build... its never better than the real thing. When you have access to elemental resist/protection pots/wands/scrolls and you can heal, there's much less need for evasion.

As for DPS, I used to use high + quarterstaffs. Carry as nice a vorpal as you can find. Acquire dual burst/puncturing heavy picks for when you are holding mobs. Don't go in like a mor0n. Set em up.. help the rest knock em down. You now have an option to take warchanter, pick up a weapon of your choice and really go to town. CC, Heal, DPS. You need to be an ace at the 1st two to do this build right, but you'll also need to find your way melee wise in some quests. However, the CC in this build will take you all the way into epics with well over 60 fascinate.

By the by, EVERY BARD should understand this (and on a CC bard, you want both to be high):

Your Spell Penetration:

1d20 + caster level + spell penetration bonuses (include feats, enhancements and items)

Your Spell DC:

10 + the level of the spell + your bonus for the relevant ability (Charisma for a Bard)

[NaturalHazard]

ok, i kinda was argueing against my own suggestion there about monk/rogue splash. I love the CC playstlye, but atm most melee's dont like me casting charm suggestion, I the only one I get away with is dancing ball, dance and hypotise. And at the moment at this level things die too fast before i can even throw CC around. Its hella fun when I solo though, nothing is more amusing than turning your enemies against each other or making them dance while you smack them or better yet get their buddy to knock them over the head while they are doing the running man.

Another thing on my tempest im stuffed for space cause i gotta carry round so many weapon sets on my bard its bad, i carry less weapon sets, but still a few and also i got all these **** scrolls and wands as well.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

ok, i kinda was argueing against my own suggestion there about monk/rogue splash. I love the CC playstlye, but atm most melee's dont like me casting charm suggestion, I the only one I get away with is dancing ball, dance and hypotise. And at the moment at this level things die too fast before i can even throw CC around. Its hella fun when I solo though, nothing is more amusing than turning your enemies against each other or making them dance while you smack them or better yet get their buddy to knock them over the head while they are doing the running man.

Another thing on my tempest im stuffed for space cause i gotta carry round so many weapon sets on my bard its bad, i carry less weapon sets, but still a few and also i got all these **** scrolls and wands as well.

Yeah, most pugs and even elites will give you mucho **** and try to limit your CC abilities. (This is where being part of a good guild comes in. In my opinion, a good guild allows you to play your toon the was YOU envision it, within reason of course!) However, when you play a CC toon there's a lot you can still use. I stack spells constantly for maximum effect. Enervate scrolls are amusing, especially when they don't aggro the baddies (hint hint). Charming stuff can be used creatively. I use it mainly as a deception technique. However spamming it is usually a recipe for disaster in a full group. It just slows people down, there's no talent in that.

[NaturalHazard]

um you said warchanter is an option? so i could still take that and remain pure bard and do CC as well? plus have high haggle? wish i could have both lol

[Wizzly_Bear]

um you said warchanter is an option? so i could still take that and remain pure bard and do CC as well? plus have high haggle? wish i could have both lol

you can have all of the above - see my most recent post in this thread

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

um you said warchanter is an option? so i could still take that and remain pure bard and do CC as well? plus have high haggle? wish i could have both lol

Absolutely! I wouldnt do anything of the sort until U7 breaks. Spellsinger II is very nice, but Warchanter II might be what the doctor ordered for you!

Check what Quickster says here... Mississippee is thinking (already planned out, one of two ideas I'm throwing around atm) of going this way:

Mine is basically a max cha warchanter 34 pt human bard. TR'd from drow bard.

All haggle feats/enhancements, past life bard. All the rest of my build points went to str/con. I usually run around 28 str and 420 hp's. Haggle currently maxes out at 97 with buffs i get myself (I use a second acct for bard song and monk buff when I'm buying a lot) I need a few more pieces of gear to hit 100.

Not my favorite bard to dps with, though I do melee raid bosses etc with her. Once I can finally make my SoS epic Ill prolly melee a bit more with her.

Not much different from your original build other than I went warchanter.

[NaturalHazard]

Absolutely! I wouldnt do anything of the sort until U7 breaks. Spellsinger II is very nice, but Warchanter II might be what the doctor ordered for you!

Check what Quickster says here, Mississippee is thinking of going this way:

Cool, the good thing about your build base stats is i can change from spellsinger to a warchanter if i want and all i need is one feat change then ehancement swap right?

Sorry you prob have answered this 1 billion times already but do you normally do with missipi on raids like shroud? are you standing back there with the healers all the time or if you dont need to be will you be meleeing harry after you thrown out your buffs?

um if buffed and have over 400 hp should be able to melee harry on norm, if needed, dps wont be great but it will at least help speed things up a little, or it might be safer to stand back and act as a what if things go wrong like one of the healers dc's or something?

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

Cool, the good thing about your build base stats is i can change from spellsinger to a warchanter if i want and all i need is one feat change then ehancement swap right?

Sorry you prob have answered this 1 billion times already but do you normally do with missipi on raids like shroud? are you standing back there with the healers all the time or if you dont need to be will you be meleeing harry after you thrown out your buffs?

It depends who I run with. I have solo healed the Shroud. In the beginning of my bard career I stayed far out of the way and just healed/cc'ed until I learned what I can and cannot do. Then again, I ran shroud when I was level 13. Once I gained more experience tho, I did more CC and more melee. I will hit portals, I will dance whatever I can (not dancing ball, too much lag), I will vorpal, I will hold/dual picks dps, I will find a way to contribute. I fill in the gaps constantly. Massive CC, DPS support.

As a warchanter however, you will be capable of more DPS, and handing out more DPS to your party.

PS: as for a dps weapon vs Harry? As long as you have silver & pure good on the same weapon, you will do more damage than you think. Buff up, dont forget fire shield COLD, fire resist/prot and if you're lucky absorbtion and you are golden. You can then craft concord op and farm torc for a seriously effective contribution.

PSS: I have in no way ruled out spellsinger. I need to play around on Lamma Land and live with spellsinger II pre before I rule it out, its really a nice PrE

[NaturalHazard]

i havent ruled out spell singer either its just that i hate joining groups and getting "your not a warchanter?" and you get the feeling that people are looking at you like your something naughty that the dog has done on the carpet.