TYRS PALADIUM - A Premier Dungeons & Dragons Online Guild
No Drama. Cameraderie. TEAM Focus. That's the TYRS way. If that's your style, come join us!
Research our Guild here: Read our official Recruitment thread | Sign up here: Tyrs Guild Website! | GHALLANDA GUILD LEADERS: Join the Fellowship!
Thank you Veriss. Side note, you can subscribe to the thread so when it updates it pops up in your control panel. What I do is simply come to the bard thread and sort by VIEW. As of this date, it sits on top of the list, thanks mainly to many in the bard community over the last few years.
Last edited by LeslieWest_GuitarGod; 08-15-2010 at 03:31 AM.
TYRS PALADIUM - A Premier Dungeons & Dragons Online Guild
No Drama. Cameraderie. TEAM Focus. That's the TYRS way. If that's your style, come join us!
Research our Guild here: Read our official Recruitment thread | Sign up here: Tyrs Guild Website! | GHALLANDA GUILD LEADERS: Join the Fellowship!
Hey thanks for the build by the way am running one atm level 8 now close to level 9 only difference is I didnt take the haggle skill feats, i took toughness and one of the spell casting ones earlier.
TYRS PALADIUM - A Premier Dungeons & Dragons Online Guild
No Drama. Cameraderie. TEAM Focus. That's the TYRS way. If that's your style, come join us!
Research our Guild here: Read our official Recruitment thread | Sign up here: Tyrs Guild Website! | GHALLANDA GUILD LEADERS: Join the Fellowship!
Thankyou LeslieWest for this outstanding post, +1 to you for your passion and community spirit. I just spent all day reading it (I feel like I should get a completionist feat) and found it quite informative. Unfortunately, it didn't answer the question I have.
It seems that a bard dedicated to Haggle should be able to get all bard-specific Haggle bonuses by level 13: the last Enhancement, Bard Haggle IV, is available at at level 12 and the last spell, Greater Heroism, at level 13. After that it is skill points and the capstone.
The capstone will give +2 to Charisma, which should give +1 to Haggle. Unless I am mistaken this is the only Haggle benefit the Capstone gives.
If these 7 levels were put into Rogue, she could get +4 Haggle from the Rogue Skill Boost while still putting Skill Points into Haggle just like a Bard.
So, why not multi-class bard13/rogue7?
I am sure if I am missing something you are the person to know what it is. I look forward to your insight.
Kutath: 6rogue/2ranger .
roll models: The Stainless Steel Rat, Fafhyrd the Grey Mouser, Garrett
Savoring the first run, for it will never happen again.
1. Rouge Skill boost does not stack with Human Versitility (HV gives +5)
2. 13/7 would make a terrrbile bard. While I think it is a bad idea to make a bard that takes the Haggle feats, instead of making the best bard you can and having a high haggle as a bonus, a 20 bard here could at least CC and Heal amost as good as a pure spell singer.
So overall 13/7 loses 2 to haggle (+1 capstone +1 HV) and doesn't gain much.
First off, I'd like to thank you for your kind words and for reading the entire thread, thats no short order any longer!! Kudos!
Well, in order to gain level 6 spells (I will never build a bard without ottos irresistible dance or mass mod wounds), you must acquire bard level 16. As far as why go pure? Crowd Control. The capstone was synergistic to what I was shooting for with Mississippee. I wanted to specialize in heal (in a "go green" mana efficient way), haggle, and crowd control. Haggle for my guild and I, heal for my party and I, and CC for my party and so that I can have fun playing her.
A human max cha bard offers the highest haggle, period. As Val mentions, HV and rogue boost doesnt stack. In this instance HV > rogue in all matters pertaining to a bard.
IF you plan to specialize in these three aspects, there is no better formulation than pure human high cha spellsinger. If you plan on CC'ing period, there is nothing better than pure. The capstone is that good.
Now, if melee happens to be one of the aspects you wish to dominate in, this is not the bard for you. You can certainly apply many of the principles (to get a high haggle for instance), but I certainly would pick feats that will increase your DPS and use skills to boost your haggle. Enhancements are the wild card that you could then use to "color" your bard to your liking, increase DPS, increase CC, or increase haggle.
There are some good high cha pure bard builds on this forum that include very decent dps at the cost of some haggle and CC.
Last edited by LeslieWest_GuitarGod; 08-19-2010 at 04:03 PM.
TYRS PALADIUM - A Premier Dungeons & Dragons Online Guild
No Drama. Cameraderie. TEAM Focus. That's the TYRS way. If that's your style, come join us!
Research our Guild here: Read our official Recruitment thread | Sign up here: Tyrs Guild Website! | GHALLANDA GUILD LEADERS: Join the Fellowship!
Kutath: 6rogue/2ranger .
roll models: The Stainless Steel Rat, Fafhyrd the Grey Mouser, Garrett
Savoring the first run, for it will never happen again.
What I want is a high Haggle. If HV and Rogue Boost don't stack, then Mississippi Queen is the way to go. Another clone is born.
Kutath: 6rogue/2ranger .
roll models: The Stainless Steel Rat, Fafhyrd the Grey Mouser, Garrett
Savoring the first run, for it will never happen again.
lol. just remember, to add real value to your party, you'll want to learn to be a highly effective crowd control specialist and healer. You should also possess a dps offense/defense. I use vorpals disputers paralyzers stat damagers etc. My favorite dps technique includes dual burst heavy picks of puncturing in association with the hold monster spell. CC is your first and usually only weapon however.
To protect yourself remember your buffs!!! Stoneskin/displacement go a long, long way to towards helping to procure your survival. When you are in heal mode, invisibility is fantastic, as you remain invisible while you heal.
Last edited by LeslieWest_GuitarGod; 08-20-2010 at 09:22 AM.
TYRS PALADIUM - A Premier Dungeons & Dragons Online Guild
No Drama. Cameraderie. TEAM Focus. That's the TYRS way. If that's your style, come join us!
Research our Guild here: Read our official Recruitment thread | Sign up here: Tyrs Guild Website! | GHALLANDA GUILD LEADERS: Join the Fellowship!
First of all congrats on the very successful thread!
That being said I would like to ask if you or someone has posted a 28 point version of this build (if that is even possible) somewhere in here and if don't mind could you please direct me to it? I have tried but I haven't gotten to half of the thread. ^_^; Thank you!
You are more then welcome!
Check the OP, just placed the starting stats there for you and the rest!
the 28 point version is identical to the 32 point version in every way except strength, so there's nothing wrong making your crowd control/healing/money maka a 28 pointer.
Enjoy!!
TYRS PALADIUM - A Premier Dungeons & Dragons Online Guild
No Drama. Cameraderie. TEAM Focus. That's the TYRS way. If that's your style, come join us!
Research our Guild here: Read our official Recruitment thread | Sign up here: Tyrs Guild Website! | GHALLANDA GUILD LEADERS: Join the Fellowship!
Sweet! Super thanks for the prompt reply! I like this build because it's not only about being a hagglebot but with the right skills (and practice) you can also be an highly effective crowd control specialist and healer. I've been planning to make a mule for ages but heck why make a mule when you can make a Haggle Bard - Mississippi Queen alt?
I've also checked out the Genghis Khan - Warchanter Bard thread and was wondering if you're going to add Gear Recommendations for this build as well?
Last edited by nyaonyao; 08-24-2010 at 05:26 AM.
Get back up there!
This is a great build and all newbie bards should have the chance to see it.
Eyrish TWF Tempest Ranger w/1 Rog/1 Ftr
Tapa Pure Spellsinger CC/Haggle Bard
plus a small army of lowbies.
I'm still new, so bear with me...
from what I understand Warchanters are very desirable the higher up you get in levels. The warchanter builds I have found tend to stress a melee/melee-capable bard build. I don't want to do melee on my bard. If I go for dps, I want the best dps, not 2nd best. I'd much rather be a casting bard who specializes in CC and support healing, which this build seems to support.
So what would be the pros and cons of following this build but going warchanter instead of spellsinger? Also, would drow drastically decrease the haggle? I'm leaning towards building a drow bard for aesthetic reasons.
PrE:
Assuming all you did was change the two haggle feats with Weapon Focus and Power attack you would be down:
Lose:
- SS: +2 bonus to your Concentration and Use Magic Device skills, +100 Spell Points, and the ability to expend a use of Bardic Music to grant yourself and all nearby allies a +1 morale bonus to spell DC's and a 10% morale discount on spell point costs. ( +1 dc on the song is the only thing that would hurt your CC abilities, others are just a nice bonus)
- 5 points for Skill Focus Haggle, and Negotiator
Gain:
- WC: +1 attack +2 damage for Inspire Courage, DR song for 5/- DR.
- Power attack and Weapon focus. I have said it before my problem with this build (and other haggle bards) is unless you plan on never leaving town almost any feat is better then the haggle feats. In most case I would say PA and WF are wasted on a SS, but since you are replacing feats that are worthless in combat, its in the GAIN.
- Pure Bard WC is rare. You can give a party +10/+9 with 2 songs. That's pretty sweet IMO.
Race:
- As a pure bard WC, I would say don't go Drow in this case. Human gives the extra feat and the Human Versitiltiy gives you a bonus to Haggle (when needed) or a bonus in combat.
Every beautiful Queen, needs a dashing, muscular King. It is time to look forward to U7. The King is born.
Many people have asked me how I would turn Mississippee Queen into a warchanter. It is easier than many have thought. Same exact stats, very similar skills. Many want the DC and the spell pen and the haggle and the DPS. Well, you can't be tops in everything, but you can be pretty dang close in the areas you care about. The trick is to know which enhancements are too expensive, and which feats/enhancements can be left in the dust.
I go THF. This seems logical. I forgo the THF feats, leaving all my feats for enhancing my bard abilities and to-hit/damage. I give up glancing blows, and I give up max spell pen, which allows me to build my healing and buffing to levels more impressive than the Queen. I'm also beefing up spell pen enhancements and sneak in a feat at level 18. This build LOVES its meta-magics, and THIS is where his versatility truly shines. Learning WHEN to use WHICH meta-magics to control your healing and CC will be a large part of the fun of this build. Your metas make your buffing, healing & CC better.
I'll put the enhancements I chose up for discussion, since there are more then several very versatile bards that run high CHA warchanters successfully. I'd be interested in hearing some feedback from players of this style of bard.
The biggest surprise to many is how different the Mississippee's play in game, compared to how similar they look on paper. You can bring some DPS pain, but are a buffing and healing machine. You also have a very high spell DC and maintain a respectable Spell Pen. You will be bent to acquire a Torc and to craft a concord opp greensteel item. Once you do this, your healing game skyrockets.
There is tremendous versatility in enhancements. Enhancements can make you king in healing or king at buffing. Its quite impossible to max both as a warchanter so you need to cherry pick what you want. Whatever enhancements you choose, make SURE you are playing to your strengths!
As far as the order of enhancements, they are far from fleshed out. The only ones written in stone would be the first six levels (so you qualify for warchanter PrE). After that focus on the enhancements you feel yous like to build first.
Stats that most anyone can achieve:Code:Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.5.1 DDO Character Planner Home Page Mississippee King Level 20 True Neutral Human Male (20 Bard) Hit Points: 242 Spell Points: 855 BAB: 15\15\20\25\25 Fortitude: 9 Reflex: 12 Will: 12 Starting Abilities Base Stats (32 Point) (Level 1) Strength 16 Dexterity 8 Constitution 14 Intelligence 8 Wisdom 8 Charisma 18 Tomes Used +2 Tome of Strength used at level 7 +2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7 +2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7 +2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7 +2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 7 +2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7 Ending Base Skills Skills (Level 20) Balance 23 Bluff 10 Concentration 26 Diplomacy 28 Disable Device n/a Haggle 33 Heal 0 Hide 0 Intimidate 10 Jump 18 Listen 0 Move Silently 0 Open Lock n/a Perform 33 Repair 0 Search 0 Spot 1 Swim 4 Tumble 1 Use Magic Device 33 Level 1 (Bard) Skill: Balance (+4) Skill: Concentration (+4) Skill: Haggle (+4) Skill: Jump (+3) Skill: Perform (+4) Skill: Tumble (+1) Skill: Use Magic Device (+4) Feat: (Human Bonus) Extend Spell Feat: (Selected) Toughness Feat: (Automatic) Attack Feat: (Automatic) Dismiss Charm Feat: (Automatic) Fascinate Feat: (Automatic) Heroic Durability Feat: (Automatic) Inspire Courage Feat: (Automatic) Light Armor Proficiency Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency: Longsword Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency: Rapier Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency: Shortsword Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency: Shortbow Feat: (Automatic) Shield Proficiency (General) Feat: (Automatic) Simple Weapon Proficiency Feat: (Automatic) Sneak Spell (1): Master's Touch Enhancement: Bard Extra Song I Enhancement: Bard Inspired Bravery I Enhancement: Human Versatility I Enhancement: Bard Song Magic I Level 2 (Bard) Skill: Balance (+1) Skill: Concentration (+1) Skill: Haggle (+1) Skill: Jump (+1) Skill: Perform (+1) Skill: Use Magic Device (+1) Feat: (Automatic) Defensive Fighting Feat: (Automatic) Sunder Feat: (Automatic) Trip Spell (1): Focusing Chant Enhancement: Bard Inspired Damage I Enhancement: Bard Lingering Song I Enhancement: Bard Charisma I Level 3 (Bard) Skill: Balance (+1) Skill: Haggle (+1) Skill: Perform (+1) Skill: Spot (+1) Skill: Use Magic Device (+1) Feat: (Selected) Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons Feat: (Automatic) Inspire Competence Spell (1): Hypnotism Enhancement: Bard Inspired Attack I Enhancement: Racial Toughness I Enhancement: Bard Wand Mastery I Level 4 (Bard) Ability Raise: CHA Skill: Balance (+1) Skill: Concentration (+1) Skill: Haggle (+1) Skill: Jump (+1) Skill: Perform (+1) Skill: Use Magic Device (+1) Spell (2): Rage Spell (2): Glitterdust Enhancement: Human Versatility II Enhancement: Bard Song Magic II Level 5 (Bard) Skill: Balance (+1) Skill: Concentration (+1) Skill: Haggle (+1) Skill: Jump (+1) Skill: Perform (+1) Skill: Use Magic Device (+1) Spell (1): Expeditious Retreat Spell (2): Sonic Blast Enhancement: Bard Inspired Bravery II Enhancement: Human Adaptability Charisma I Level 6 (Bard) Skill: Balance (+1) Skill: Haggle (+1) Skill: Jump (+2) Skill: Perform (+1) Skill: Use Magic Device (+1) Feat: (Selected) Power Attack Feat: (Automatic) Suggestion Enhancement: Bard Warchanter I Level 7 (Bard) Skill: Balance (+1) Skill: Concentration (+1) Skill: Diplomacy (+2) Skill: Perform (+1) Skill: Use Magic Device (+1) Spell (2): Blur Spell (3): Haste Spell (3): Cure Serious Wounds Enhancement: Bard Inspired Damage II Enhancement: Racial Toughness II Level 8 (Bard) Ability Raise: CHA Skill: Concentration (+1) Skill: Diplomacy (+2) Skill: Haggle (+2) Skill: Perform (+1) Skill: Use Magic Device (+1) Feat: (Automatic) Improved Inspire Courage Spell (3): Good Hope Enhancement: Bard Inspired Attack II Level 9 (Bard) Skill: Haggle (+2) Skill: Perform (+2) Skill: Use Magic Device (+2) Feat: (Selected) Maximize Spell Feat: (Automatic) Inspire Greatness Enhancement: Bard Charisma II Level 10 (Bard) Skill: Balance (+3) Skill: Diplomacy (+1) Skill: Jump (+3) Spell (3): Displacement Spell (4): Cure Critical Wounds Spell (4): Otto's Sphere of Dancing Enhancement: Human Versatility III Enhancement: Bard Energy of the Music I Level 11 (Bard) Skill: Balance (+1) Skill: Concentration (+2) Skill: Diplomacy (+1) Skill: Haggle (+1) Skill: Perform (+1) Skill: Use Magic Device (+1) Spell (4): Freedom of Movement Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery I Enhancement: Bard Improved Spell Penetration I Level 12 (Bard) Ability Raise: CHA Skill: Balance (+1) Skill: Concentration (+2) Skill: Diplomacy (+1) Skill: Haggle (+1) Skill: Perform (+1) Skill: Use Magic Device (+1) Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons (swap for Spell Focus: Enchantment once you complete Min II weapon) Feat: (Automatic) Song of Freedom Enhancement: Bard Inspired Damage III Level 13 (Bard) Skill: Balance (+1) Skill: Concentration (+1) Skill: Diplomacy (+2) Skill: Haggle (+1) Skill: Perform (+1) Skill: Use Magic Device (+1) Spell (5): Greater Heroism Spell (5): Mass Cure Light Wounds Spell (4): Hold Monster Enhancement: Bard Inspired Attack III Level 14 (Bard) Skill: Balance (+1) Skill: Concentration (+1) Skill: Diplomacy (+1) Skill: Haggle (+1) Skill: Jump (+1) Skill: Perform (+1) Skill: Use Magic Device (+1) Spell (5): Mass Suggestion Enhancement: Bard Energy of the Music II Level 15 (Bard) Skill: Balance (+1) Skill: Concentration (+1) Skill: Diplomacy (+1) Skill: Haggle (+1) Skill: Jump (+1) Skill: Perform (+1) Skill: Use Magic Device (+1) Feat: (Selected) Quicken Spell Feat: (Automatic) Inspire Heroics Enhancement: Human Versatility IV Level 16 (Bard) Ability Raise: CHA Skill: Balance (+1) Skill: Concentration (+2) Skill: Diplomacy (+1) Skill: Haggle (+1) Skill: Perform (+1) Skill: Use Magic Device (+1) Spell (1): Remove Fear Spell (6): Mass Cure Moderate Wounds Spell (6): Otto's Irresistable Dance Spell (5): Mind Fog Enhancement: Bard Improved Spell Penetration II Level 17 (Bard) Skill: Balance (+1) Skill: Concentration (+2) Skill: Haggle (+1) Skill: Jump (+1) Skill: Perform (+1) Skill: Use Magic Device (+1) Spell (2): Invisibility Spell (6): Heroes Feast Enhancement: Bard Wand Mastery II Enhancement: Bard Wand Mastery III Level 18 (Bard) Skill: Balance (+1) Skill: Concentration (+1) Skill: Diplomacy (+2) Skill: Haggle (+1) Skill: Perform (+1) Skill: Use Magic Device (+1) Feat: (Selected) Spell Penetration Feat: (Automatic) Mass Suggestion Spell (3): Crushing Despair Level 19 (Bard) Skill: Balance (+1) Skill: Concentration (+1) Skill: Diplomacy (+2) Skill: Haggle (+1) Skill: Perform (+1) Skill: Use Magic Device (+1) Spell (6): Greater Shout Spell (4): Dimension Door Enhancement: Bard Charisma III Level 20 (Bard) Ability Raise: CHA Skill: Balance (+1) Skill: Concentration (+1) Skill: Diplomacy (+2) Skill: Haggle (+1) Skill: Perform (+1) Skill: Use Magic Device (+1) Spell (5): Shadow Walk Enhancement: Bard Musical Prodigy Enhancement: Bard Lyric of Song I Enhancement: Bard Song Magic III
26 STR: 16 base + 2 tome + 6 item (+ 2 rage)
24 CON: 14 base + 2 tome + 6 item ( + 2 rage)
38 CHA: 18 base + 5 levels + 2 tome + 3 enhancement + 1 human + 6 item + 1 ship buff + 2 capstone
Max potential (gear dependant)
30 STR: 16 base + 2 tome + 7 item + 1 lotd (+ 2 rage + 2 yugo)
28 CON: 14 base + 2 tome + 1 enhancement + 6 item + 1 lotd ( + 2 rage + 2 yugo + 2 mineral II weapon)
46 CHA: 18 base + 5 levels + 3 tome + 3 enhancement + 1 human + 3 exceptional + 7 item + 1 lotd + 1 ship buff + 2 capstone (+ 2 yugo)
This build will not be complete until U7 hits. For now, this is just a rough draft, meant to spur discussion. I'd like to hear from High-CHA warchanters (I see you! ). What would you change?
Last edited by LeslieWest_GuitarGod; 09-10-2010 at 02:42 AM.
TYRS PALADIUM - A Premier Dungeons & Dragons Online Guild
No Drama. Cameraderie. TEAM Focus. That's the TYRS way. If that's your style, come join us!
Research our Guild here: Read our official Recruitment thread | Sign up here: Tyrs Guild Website! | GHALLANDA GUILD LEADERS: Join the Fellowship!
This is my old max-haggle build (now TRs are necessary for max-haggle and I'm not going to invest that much into it).
Code:Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.5.1 DDO Character Planner Home Page Level 20 True Neutral Human Male (20 Bard) Hit Points: 222 Spell Points: 786 BAB: 15\15\20\25\25 Fortitude: 8 Reflex: 11 Will: 11 Starting Feat/Enhancement Abilities Base Stats Modified Stats (32 Point) (Level 1) (Level 20) Strength 16 16 Dexterity 8 8 Constitution 14 14 Intelligence 8 8 Wisdom 8 8 Charisma 18 29 Starting Feat/Enhancement Base Skills Modified Skills Skills (Level 1) (Level 20) Balance 3 22 Concentration 6 25 Haggle 8 41 Jump 6 25 Perform 8 32 Tumble 0 0 (1 pt) Use Magic Device 8 32 Level 1 (Bard) Feat: (Selected) Extend Spell Feat: (Human Bonus) Toughness Level 3 (Bard) Feat: (Selected) Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons Level 6 (Bard) Feat: (Selected) Power Attack Level 9 (Bard) Feat: (Selected) Two Handed Fighting Level 12 (Bard) Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons Level 15 (Bard) Feat: (Selected) Skill Focus: Haggle Level 18 (Bard) Feat: (Selected) Negotiator Enhancement: Bard Inspired Attack III Enhancement: Bard Inspired Bravery II Enhancement: Bard Inspired Damage III Enhancement: Bard Lingering Song III Enhancement: Bard Warchanter I Enhancement: Bard Musical Prodigy Enhancement: Human Adaptability Charisma I Enhancement: Human Versatility IV Enhancement: Racial Toughness II Enhancement: Bard Haggle IV Enhancement: Bard Charisma III Enhancement: Bard Wand Mastery IV
When I was fooling around with the character creation tool this is what I started with with a Human bard before I went drow. I went Drow for aesthetic reasons, and took Weapon Focus: Piercing to stack with the Drow enhancements. Except that in reality piercing weapons aren't very good and I might change it for slashing. I didn't realize you could go THF without the feat (I am a newbie, after all).
My haggle wc drow has 13 STR 14 CON and 19 CHA - I'm envisioning her more as a buffer/cc-er than providing any beneficial DPS - but I might have to reroll and go human for the more balanced stats you posted. Hm....