Haggle Bard - Mississippi Queen

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

If you are building a warchanter, it is very important to understand you are NOT an elite fighter. You will always be a generalist, but with careful planning, you can master the art of fighting and still be able to buff and heal. Bards are extremely versatile and underplayed in DDO. By learning to properly buff (you can stoneskin (wands), barkskin(pots), blur(wands), and displace yourself), you can be LAST MAN/WOMAN STANDING on a regular basis. Your defenses as a melee are second to none. UMD can really help you out and truly make you do things most melees could only dream they could do. Sadly many warchanters are terribly underpowered, and I believe the main reason for that is just a horrible selection of warchanter builds available on this forum.

There is an exception. Check out Borror0's excellent warchanter build, "Barrok Z'rro - Dwarf TWF Warchanter w/ fighter splash" right here http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=172958. High hp (for a bard), high saves, high umd, very smart melee feats.

[WorldTraveler]

Thanks for the response and the help. I'm the type to do a lot of studying in the compendiums and forums and hours tweaking
on the planner to see what I think might work best. Especially when I haven't played a character type. Was just wondering
if you had seen the build in Sigtrent's thread I linked to and what you thought about how it compares in different areas to
the one you posted. Particularly in respect to a good achievable haggle score on a toon that is easy to level up. That
warchanter build doesn't list enhancements taken and has no spare feats for the spell pen your's has.

[hannika]

If you are building a warchanter, it is very important to understand you are NOT an elite fighter. You will always be a generalist

...*sputters* excuse me? o.O don't tell ppl that their bard is going to be gimp, it's only as gimp as you make it. ya there are a lot of weak bards and even weak warchanter bards but don't make it seem like one's STUCK with being second string.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

...*sputters*

Abi, what I said is the truth. Read it again. A bard IS a generalist. Learning how to master a specific role is imperative when playing a bard. I have learned how to master haggle, crowd control, healing and buffing which were the goals of this build.

I also stated that their were a lack of quality bard builds on this forum for a very long time, and that it, in part, may be contributing to lackluster bard builds we BOTH agree we have witnessed in the game.

So dont be upset, instead, why dont you offer to help WorldTraveler out? You are one of the 2 best battle bards I've seen on Ghallanda when it comes to DPS AND defending yourself with proper buffs. But their is an art to what you do. There is a methodology. Posting one of your builds (or at least a similar build) would be a benefit to the bard community.

I love the bard class. There is no reason bards should be "stuck" in any way. But there IS A NEED, for GOOD, CLEAR information, in order to avoid making a mistake. And THAT has been the goal of this thread. I prefer to keep this thread informative, Abi.

[hannika]

a bard CAN BE a generalist doesn't HAVE to be. i just scoffed at the notion that a bard CANT be a dps machine. that it's "very important to know you are NOT an elite fighter and will ALWAYS be a generalist." simply not the case, if you want a generalist jack of all trades bard that's what you make, if that dude's looking to build a warchanter there are other options and builds than a generalist (and mediocre dps) bard. i just sputtered at the blatent pidgeon holeing.

[EinarMal]

a bard CAN BE a generalist doesn't HAVE to be. i just scoffed at the notion that a bard CANT be a dps machine. that it's "very important to know you are NOT an elite fighter and will ALWAYS be a generalist." simply not the case, if you want a generalist jack of all trades bard that's what you make, if that dude's looking to build a warchanter there are other options and builds than a generalist (and mediocre dps) bard. i just sputtered at the blatent pidgeon holeing.

No offense but he is correct to a degree. Even the most maxed out damage warchanter is far behind the very top DPS builds (assuming your not singing your songs in the corner).

It is simple math really, Bards can only increase their DPS through feats and songs (which everyone can take). Rangers get FE damage on top + tempest, paladin's have divine favor + might + zeal + smites, Barbarians rage, and next mod fighters will be right up at the top of the heap.

So sputter away but you are at least 20% behind the best DPS builds on a Bard. Every bonus you get stacks with all the full BAB classes, and they have every feat that you have (or more).

Now that is not to say that Warchanters don't do solid DPS, but elite level not really (and yes I have done all the DPS calculations and all the builds).

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

i just sputtered at the blatent pidgeon holeing.

Abi, as already recognized, you may have good DPS, but without your buffs, even "your" DPS will not be on the same level as other properly built DPS specialists such as fighters, barbarians, and rangers. As you should know, and you know that I know the same, it is your defensive and offensive buffs that allow your durability. All the sputtering in Kansas wont change that fact.

That is why I recommended for you to post a warchanter build of your own, and show a complete warchanter blueprint including your methodology of how you do what you do. Many of the warchanter builds on this forum are just not very verbose on how to build and play an effective warchanter.

I'll try to clarify one last time for you Abi, bards that choose to specialize in DPS, AND combine a self buff strategy can OFTEN be the last man/woman standing in any pier 6 brawl. Its an excellent DPS build choice.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

Properly buffed, Mississippee is now hitting a 78 haggle and still hasnt completed her CHA 9 Shroud weapon (due to RL commitments and guild commitments that have kept me out of pounding out the shroud 1-3x a day!!).

At this point, I'd have say that this is the least expensive toon I've ever built. A haggle bard needs very little "elite gear" to perform admirably.

I've seen healing bards gain immense popularity in recent months, and should easily be able to take a round or two of Shroud part 4 if properly equipped. Certainly, you could keep the clerics fully healed while they keep the party healed. When I'm on my other toons, I feel much safer when I see a bard in group, healer or otherwise.

[lOprahl]

If your just trying to bump your thread...you just have to ask


Bumped**

[winsom]

haggle 03 = 13,000 gold
haggle 23 = 11,700

It looks like every 20 points of haggle = 10% savings

I think some people are assuming haggle is worth a lot more than it really is?

If these numbers continue like the above, a character would need Haggle 100 to be able to buy twice as many Wands of CSW as the person with 0 Haggle. A

A Haggle 70 character is profiting 25% more than the Haggle 20 character, if I am right. My non-haggle characters can get close to haggle 20 without too much effort.

Anyone care to submit their high-haggle character's prices for a Wand of CSW?

fyi, my bard 12/rogue4 is perhaps a bit unusual for a bard: ZERO points in haggle!
I didn't think it worthwhile compared to the rogue skills, move silent, jump, etc.

[Strakeln]

haggle 03 = 13,000 gold
haggle 23 = 11,700

It looks like every 20 points of haggle = 10% savings

I think some people are assuming haggle is worth a lot more than it really is?

If these numbers continue like the above, a character would need Haggle 100 to be able to buy twice as many Wands of CSW as the person with 0 Haggle.

Anyone care to submit their high-haggle character's prices for a Wand of CSW?

Low 800pp (8000gp) range, as I recall.

Starts to add up with scrolls. Stack of heal scrolls goes from around 19,500pp to around 12,000pp. That's plat, not gold.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

I didn't think it worthwhile compared to the rogue skills, move silent, jump, etc.

Well, you have a right to your opinion. A haggle bard can provide a great service to his or her guild, friends, and self. A haggle bard is just as important to the economy of a guild as spot and disable is to a rogue. There is no "better." A rogue does what a rogue does and a bard does what a bard does. You buy retail. I buy wholesale. You sell retail. But my store is in Beverly Hills

I built Mississippee pure for a reason. I built her human for a reason. Because of this, her haggle and UMD can reach untouchable numbers. Add a high spell penetration to the skill set, and you have a multi faceted character that, with the right person playing her, can be a life saver for any party. An extremely potent healer, buffer, dance instructor, and hagglebard should make you quite popular to a party or guild.

You bring up a very good point, and have had many ask me if rolling a spellslinger/haggle bard was really worth it. I'll elaborate further in my next post. Then you can decide. Like every build in D&D, its what you want to DO with your toon...

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

Vendors and Tavernkeeps buy and sell at rates based on completion of a specific Reputation Quest. Talk to the City Ward greeter or contact for specific information on Reputation quest (or see full list below). Brokers have varying rates based on minimum level of items in which they deal (eg., ml:2/0 Broker refers to min level 2 weapons/armor brokers and min level 0 clothing/jewelry brokers).

Here is how Haggle impacts the buying and selling price of items, at the different vendors.



Example: A player character with 0 Haggle skill wishes to buy a ml:2 weapon from the Broker. The base value of the weapon is 8,000gp. The ml:2 Broker markup is +25%. So the player can BUY for 125% ItemBaseValue, or 10,000gp. The same player uses another character with 40 Haggle and can BUY the item for 100% base value, or 8,000gp.

Now you know better than to sell your hard earned loot to barkeeps and other similar vendors. Brokers are the way to go. They are the people that pay higher for your junks, err, items. Most importantly, DONT LET Mississippee catch you selling your hard earned "lootz" to the bartenders... Anyone caught doing this will be subject to Mississippee Queen's "MP3 BARD LAW". (15 minutes of listening to the loudest, most obnoxious MP3 files on my hard drive!!! ... at FULL VOLUME!)

SELLING = BASE SELL PERCENTAGE + (0.25% x HAGGLE)
BUYING = [1 - (0.005 x HAGGLE)] x Vendor or Broker Level MARKUP

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

If your just trying to bump your thread...you just have to ask


Bumped**

LOL... I was just continuing my posts... which have been a chronological look-see into playing a spellslinger bard. I guess I wanted to show the effectiveness of healing and spell pen along the way. But, thank you for the bump, much appreciated.

[Riekan]

Les,
I have a question about your initial stat distribution. I understand the maxed Charisma and higher constitution, but why start with a 16 in strength? Are you meleeing with this toon? From the descriptions in the thread, I don't believe you are. So why start with such a high strength instead of evening out some of your other stats? Would it be a complete mistake to go 18 charisma, 18 constitution 8s in everything else?

I'm thinking of starting a haggle bard/spellsinger to replace one of my rogues, and want to not gimp myself on the starting stats.

[Zenako]

Les,
I have a question about your initial stat distribution. I understand the maxed Charisma and higher constitution, but why start with a 16 in strength? Are you meleeing with this toon? From the descriptions in the thread, I don't believe you are. So why start with such a high strength instead of evening out some of your other stats? Would it be a complete mistake to go 18 charisma, 18 constitution 8s in everything else?

I'm thinking of starting a haggle bard/spellsinger to replace one of my rogues, and want to not gimp myself on the starting stats.

Well I can attest that I have a drow haggler with an 8 base STR, and found I was getting encumbered/unable to move when my other toons were dropping off lots of nice stuff to sell (get some cheap +6 STR bracers and addressed that issue). (Was unable to get items out of the mailbox and could not figure out why... until I realized that doing so would have exceeded my carrying capacity.)

To make a good haggler, you will have to get to 16th, so you need to be survivable in quests. One good Ray of Enfeeblement and your toast with min str. Now I purposely went with low str/higher dex (like a 16 IIRC) in order to have some AC at lower levels, decent REF saves and ranged attacks. Even had Weapon Finesse in there too for all my light weapons. (The extra +4 or +5 to hit was important in those lower levels to being a contributing member after songs and spells.) It could also be a liking for Jumping about, a STR based skill.

[Comfortably]

Well, you have a right to your opinion. A haggle bard can provide a great service to his or her guild, friends, and self. A haggle bard is just as important to the economy of a guild as spot and disable is to a rogue.

...a haggle bard is awesome for a guild or group for friends, I myself have 3 capped clerics and although I don't mind buying any scrolls or pots, it's still nice when a guildy bard gets em for me a little cheaper.

*note* If your playing a cleric and not making money your doing something wrong.

[Zenako]

...a haggle bard is awesome for a guild or group for friends, I myself have 3 capped clerics and although I don't mind buying any scrolls or pots, it's still nice when a guildy bard gets em for me a little cheaper.

*note* If your playing a cleric and not making money your doing something wrong.

mmmm a little cheaper, a LITTLE CHEAPER....mmmm

its like wholesale vs retail....just a little cheaper....

such a deal...we can offer you today my fine friend....this fine stack of scrolls for a mere pittance of plat....

Seriously when you combine the synergy of buying and selling with a haggle bard, you can make a serious difference in your cash/plat flow. Sell for 2 to 3 times as much and buy supplies for 50% less amounts to net change of a factor of 6 in effective cash. We have a couple of haggle speced bards (60+) in our guild, and a bunch of other toons with very good haggle scores.

[winsom]

Sell for 2 to 3 times as much and buy supplies for 50% less amounts to net change of a factor of 6 in effective cash. .

That is very exaggerated and untrue. I don't know where you get that figure, but haggle is not even close to that effective at selling. I write this notice because this is the second or third time Ive seen a similar comparison in this thread.

[Strakeln]

That is very exaggerated and untrue. I don't know where you get that figure, but haggle is not even close to that effective at selling. I write this notice because this is the second or third time Ive seen a similar comparison in this thread.

It is very true and not exaggerated at all. http://ddo.enterwiki.net/page/Haggle

Base haggle of 0 sells stuff to the broker at 15% BV. My hagglebot usually sells at around a 78 haggle, which is 34.5% BV. 34.5% / 15% = 2.3.

Taking a look at a more extreme case: compare a no-haggle barbarian with a -2 haggle (6 cha) and compare it to a max haggle bard with 82. That's 14.5% vs 35.5%. 35.5% / 14.5% = 2.45.

When selling to a vendor instead of a broker w/o the rep quest, the extreme case becomes even more extreme: 9.5% vs 30.5%. 30.5% / 9.5% = 3.21

In other words, a high haggle character sells for between 2 to 3 times as much.

If you'd care to contest that, bring out the math.