Haggle Bard - Mississippi Queen

[x1372]

Well, my bard that's mostly following this build is finally 50k xp away from hitting level 20.

For the most part, its been a good run. Definitely fun playing the crowd control role, especially from levels 4-16 or so. The last few levels, however, have become a bit frustrating.

What's currently been bothering me most is my crowd control. I've been running Amrath a lot lately... and what the heck is with the will saves there? I swear nothing ever dances in a dancing ball unless it rolls a nat 1, and the only effect glitterdust or mind fog ever have is to draw aggro to me (though a few rogues commented on loving that, go figure).

I've also been looking at my DCs. I currently can hit 32 with my dreamspitter equipped on my 6th level enchantments. Now I look at my fascinate, having recently acquired a Bard's cloak. Unbuffed (and who doesn't keep GH on themselves?) my Fascinate has a DC that's random from... 54 to 73. Makes me wonder why I even bother with any crowd control but fascinate and Otto's Irresistible Dance. A monster that needs a 20 to save against a minimum DC fascinate could save on a 2 from my mass charm monster.

Still though, when I'm playing in areas where the monsters don't have insane will saves, I'm ripping things apart. Recently did an elite run of Acid Wit, and the party took virtually no damage from most of the enemies who danced away in the doorways. In fact, none of us suffered a single hit from the vengeance-seekers, due to overlapping dancing ball/glitterdust/mind fog.

It feels sad to be reduced to a buffbot with a stack of healing scrolls for some of the raids... but then, sometimes that's exactly what's needed. 75% Wand and Scroll mastery is enough to make my cleric jealous sometimes.

Still need a head of good fortune and Tier 3 on my greensteel goggles, and a greensteel weapon (luckily I got +1 exceptional cha on my dragontouched armor)... but my haggle's getting up there.


Remember to take advantage of the succubus hunting game that's back in the marketplace... even if you (as usual) only trigger the +1 psionic skills bonus, its well worth the 1000 gold.

*edit* One other question - if I wanted to keep lingering song at 2 or 3, what should I get rid of, without sacrificing haggle?

[Anderei]

In the top levels 17-20 I mostly took the role of a healer.

I've lingering song only at I, this more than enough. you got 22 songs per rest! Dont tell me you run our of songs... While Lingering is useful at lower lever, it start to be kind of superflous at upper. 5 minutes per song is more than enough to reapply them every 5 minutes in case of quests where the next shrine is maybe 10 minutes away.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

Well, my bard that's mostly following this build is finally 50k xp away from hitting level 20.

For the most part, its been a good run. Definitely fun playing the crowd control role, especially from levels 4-16 or so. The last few levels, however, have become a bit frustrating.

What's currently been bothering me most is my crowd control. I've been running Amrath a lot lately... and what the heck is with the will saves there? I swear nothing ever dances in a dancing ball unless it rolls a nat 1, and the only effect glitterdust or mind fog ever have is to draw aggro to me (though a few rogues commented on loving that, go figure).

*edit* One other question - if I wanted to keep lingering song at 2 or 3, what should I get rid of, without sacrificing haggle?

Amrath is definately a tough area for ANY caster/bard that assumes a CC role. Believe it or not enervate scrolls can mean the difference even for a bard. Yet, I see so few bards going to them. Another great thing about enervate scrolls is that if the monster doesnt see you... they dont aggro on you after hitting them with the spell. Mass charm monster, mass suggestion & suggestion song work as well, especially if they are enervated.

The sad truth is Turbine hasnt given us CC bards very many spells to use, and blanket immunities and ridiculously high saving areas such as Amrath cause problems. However, theres a plus side. Most new content Turbine has made CC friendly. Even epic content bards are in high demand for their high quality fascinate and ottos irrisistable.

One nice present will definitely come your way, the awesome CC focused bard capstone. The +2 CHA and +2 increase to spell pen and DC checks are critical and designed to boost effectiveness. It's definitely nice and tailor-fit for this build..

As for lingering song.... not much you can give up besides haggle. I wouldnt touch your healing enhancements. Personally, I wouldnt push lingering song. Shouldnt be needed you have plenty of songs... so song duration extension is just not very necessary.

[Samadhi]

In the top levels 17-20 I mostly took the role of a healer.

I've lingering song only at I, this more than enough. you got 22 songs per rest! Dont tell me you run our of songs... While Lingering is useful at lower lever, it start to be kind of superflous at upper. 5 minutes per song is more than enough to reapply them every 5 minutes in case of quests where the next shrine is maybe 10 minutes away.

I have at least lingering song III on all of my bards, and I prioritize IV when it is possible. It isn't about running out of songs (usually; although I do a pretty good job of this when playing a heavy fascinate role). It is about the time spent singing to reapply them instead of contributing in better ways.
What else do you spend AP on? I am only trying to guess one of my bards' total AP expenditures off the top of my head - but we are talking maxed songs incl. to hit, warchanter + prereqs, maxed healing line, human imp recovery, human adaptability, 2-3 tiers of Cha as appropriate, maybe some spell pen not sure. What else do you need?

(Not saying lingering song is necessary - but invariably, the bards I see that don't have long songs, tend to be the bards that don't pay attention and need to be reminded to re-sing).

[Anderei]

What else do you spend AP on? I am only trying to guess one of my bards' total AP expenditures off the top of my head - but we are talking maxed songs incl. to hit, warchanter + prereqs, maxed healing line, human imp recovery, human adaptability, 2-3 tiers of Cha as appropriate, maybe some spell pen not sure. What else do you need?

(Not saying lingering song is necessary - but invariably, the bards I see that don't have long songs, tend to be the bards that don't pay attention and need to be reminded to re-sing).

Maxing Haggling eats up APs, Haggle IV, Cha III, Versality IV, Adaptility CHA
Songs +Damage and +Hit max is obviously necessray.
Then you Max out Healing.
Some (un)necessary Prereqs for Spellsigner
And then my APs were all gone already. Lingering I was all I could fit in.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

the bards I see that don't have long songs, tend to be the bards that don't pay attention and need to be reminded to re-sing).

I have never been able to tie these two together conclusively. I have had to request bard songs from bards that take lingering song just as often, so I fail to see the correlation Sam. Are you saying you've never forgotten to re-song?

If anything, a bard would be paying more attention because he's applying his songs a bit more often. Let's review the cost/value. 20, 40, 60 & 80% longer songs, respectively. So for TEN action points you dont even get double the song length. Just not enough bang for the buck in my book. To call all bards that dont push lingering song up to IV aloof I think is a bit of a stretch. I have no problem keeping buffs up for quest entirety.

Longer songs are purely optional, and never more than a fringe quality of life benefit... especially on a spell singer. Spellsong Trance is a notable exception. This is a very short song that has great value for any blue bar toon. Spellsingers have the time to sing however... Pure Spellsinger DPS is not that insane where 3 seconds cant be invested to sing a tune.

On a virtuoso bard however lingering song actually synergizes with what they are about (they get 10% longer songs due to their specialty. The specialty + lingering song stacks.) Warchanters that can bring serious DPS to the table I can also see dipping into lingering song.

I do agree Sam there is some room in this build for Lingering song, especially if you drop haggle enhancements. Hey, at least you are cognizant about the importance of buffs in the first place. But to minimize the healing or spell penetration enhancements (which I use often) just to lengthen songs that I have no problem singing was simply not in the cards for me.

One thing we may be able to agree on is this. Bards that don't pay attention to songs/buffs probably shouldn't be bards in the first place.

[Anderei]

How can you easily be reminded of songs? Cast Good Hope and GH on yourself (which should you anyway).

Since Insprie Courage and GH override Good Hope, when Inspire Courage expires (and you forgot to reapply when it was short before end) you see a nice glow, a have nice phoooooow-sound when Good Hope gets auto-reapplied.

[Zenako]

Depending on your actual CHA stats and tomes, you can often avoid spending points on an odd number push via enhancements. That could be 6 AP (CHA III) to spend elsewhere. A 35 CHA is no better in general than a 34 would be (barring stat damage...). So look closely at things like that as well.

End game scenarios, Fascinate can be very powerful, but also can be very dangerous if you mess up after drawing all that attention.

[Anderei]

18 base + 5 levels + 3 Enhancement + 6 item + 3/2/1 exceptional + 1 adaption + + 2 capstone + 1 litany.

Everything (i can think of) yields an even number.

[Zenako]

18 base + 5 levels + 3 Enhancement + 6 item + 3/2/1 exceptional + 1 adaption + + 2 capstone + 1 litany.

Everything (i can think of) yields an even number.

Inherent Bonus from Tomes....

[x1372]

Actually, I've been a big fan of enervation lately. Have enervation guard on my dragontouched armor, and the dreamspitter has its own level drain effect on crit (with its increase in DCs and greater evil outsider bane I've been using that more than my GSP/Sup Pot 6 set in amrath). I should definitely look into getting some scrolls for that.

Come to think of it, that brings up two more questions.

I have enough UMD to hit a heal scroll 100% of the time with GH on. I currently carry raise dead, heal, and reconstruct scrolls. What other ones should I start bringing along that are really worth having? I'm kinda strapped for inventory space currently but I'm sure I can swap some things around, or barring that just stop carrying some of my trash. Haven't used my banishing or smiting crossbows in at least 5 levels.

Also, for my dragontouched armor, I currently have Resist +5, +1 Exceptional Charisma, and Enervation Guard. I'm pretty happy with it... but should I consider swapping any of the runes? Is there something much better I could get for any of them?

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

I have enough UMD to hit a heal scroll 100% of the time with GH on. I currently carry raise dead, heal, and reconstruct scrolls. What other ones should I start bringing along that are really worth having? I'm kinda strapped for inventory space currently but I'm sure I can swap some things around, or barring that just stop carrying some of my trash. Haven't used my banishing or smiting crossbows in at least 5 levels.

Also, for my dragontouched armor, I currently have Resist +5, +1 Exceptional Charisma, and Enervation Guard. I'm pretty happy with it... but should I consider swapping any of the runes? Is there something much better I could get for any of them?

Scrolls. Well for one thing, 100 teleport scrolls is a staple on my bard. Like American Express, I dont leave home without it I like cure mass mod scrolls. I use these when Im in mana conservation mode, in between battles, and sometimes even in battles that dont require the much more potent mana healing. Resto & greater resto scrolls. Fire Shield scrolls are amongst my favorite. Works GREAT in the Shroud parts 4 & 5. And anyplace where fire or cold is extremely painful.

That's a really nice robe. Enervation guard is great because if something gets too close to you, they get level drained and really gives them nill chance to save against whatever you want to hit them with. Irresistible dance is normally what they get hit with if they invade my space... but depending on the monster, a hold monster would be even better if it lands because now its auto-critable. Then, dual burst heavy picks of puncturing ftw. Doesnt matter that you arent specced for TWF, you'll hit every time.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

Fascinate can be very powerful, but also can be very dangerous if you mess up after drawing all that attention.

This is where haste, diplomacy and a cleaving frenzied barbarian comes in handy!

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

A 35 CHA is no better in general than a 34 would be (barring stat damage...). So look closely at things like that as well.

You are so right about this. In fact, looking over my haggle math, I forgot to add my cha tome so I just adjusted it. 85 haggle with only a +1 cha tome. Booya.

[Zenako]

This is where haste, diplomacy and a cleaving frenzied barbarian comes in handy!

Personally it is more like Haste, Displacement, Stoneskin, Blur (in case I run out of time on the Displacement), (all other relevant buffs and songs) and then Diplo and the powerful DPS allies.

However those last two are often in short supply when soloing....
at least until I convince some of the mobs to work for me instead of against me...

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

Personally it is more like Haste, Displacement, Stoneskin, Blur (in case I run out of time on the Displacement), (all other relevant buffs and songs) and then Diplo and the powerful DPS allies.

However those last two are often in short supply when soloing....
at least until I convince some of the mobs to work for me instead of against me...

Ok fine, fine To be technical, Haste, blur, displacement, stoneskin (wand), then diplo then Run Forest, Run... to your closest melees. (bark and recitation can come in handy too) And, if you are in a dangerous area, if you need to hit ALL these buffs while you are already on the run, you are in big trouble. In other words most of these buffs should already be active before you fascinate in a tough area, so that you hit maybe one buff, if any, and you are outa there ...

Bard AC = buff stacking.

[Samadhi]

Maxing Haggling eats up APs, Haggle IV, Cha III, Versality IV, Adaptility CHA
Songs +Damage and +Hit max is obviously necessray.
Then you Max out Healing.
Some (un)necessary Prereqs for Spellsigner
And then my APs were all gone already. Lingering I was all I could fit in.

Ok - so between haggle (10 AP) and human versatility (another 10 AP - which I assume is also being used for haggle?) you have more than enough AP to spare that, if you wanted to work in the entire lingering song line, you could do it with a lot of AP to spare.

I know this is a haggle-bard thread - in a game where money is so easy to make, however, I never found the need to prioritize haggle to that *extreme* maxed-or-nothing extent over my in game capabilities, as opposed to just having a max haggle on a high Cha bard and an item. And although not vastly prevalent, there are times that I am not available to re-sing. I might be kiting reaver's in EVoN6. I might be kiting the Orthon in TowerP1. I may be in a PUG that is about to wipe and I need to be healing Is Lingering song mandatory? Of course not. I just have also found nothing better to spend the AP on in most circumstances, for the times Lingering is good (and it is always convenient).

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

Ok - so between haggle (10 AP) and human versatility (another 10 AP - which I assume is also being used for haggle?) you have more than enough AP to spare that, if you wanted to work in the entire lingering song line, you could do it with a lot of AP to spare.

I know this is a haggle-bard thread - in a game where money is so easy to make, however, I never found the need to prioritize haggle to that *extreme* maxed-or-nothing extent over my in game capabilities, as opposed to just having a max haggle on a high Cha bard and an item. And although not vastly prevalent, there are times that I am not available to re-sing. I might be kiting reaver's in EVoN6. I might be kiting the Orthon in TowerP1. I may be in a PUG that is about to wipe and I need to be healing Is Lingering song mandatory? Of course not. I just have also found nothing better to spend the AP on in most circumstances, for the times Lingering is good (and it is always convenient).

Human versatility and haggle are, yes, beneficial to haggle. Did I "max" UMD or Haggle? Believe it or not, I didn't. There are ways to boost haggle up past 90 which I don't see myself shooting for. To go beyond the haggle blueprint in this thread, the gear/time ratio would be ridiculous. As it stands right now, I'm quite comfortable with the math, considering I am quite strong in the CC and healing departments. The haggle stuff stays for me, as I actually serve a role in my guild, any point spread differential is actually quite beneficial for myself and the guild. I have even funded PUG clerics for a job well done in a less then sub-par raid or quest. It's nice to have the extra money laying around...

Human versatility I've used time and again. Boosts UMD though out the life of the build. I don't even need a UMD item anymore. Certainly you can shave off some haggle and HV though, if you choose to go another route, including lingering song. Not a bad option if you understand the true value of your songs.

[x1372]

Well, Ashiala (on Sarlona) is officially level 20. Currently has 36 adjusted CHA and, fully self-buffed, 75 haggle.

No luck yet on getting a head of good fortune, and I've yet to get tier 3 on her greensteel goggles so that can get me up to 79 haggle selfbuffed. Inspire competence, Walk of the Sun, and a House D pot can push that up to 86. I don't see myself trying for more than that, since it would require rare and hard to get gear, a tier 3 greensteel weapon, possibly a +4 CHA tome (ate a +2), and (if going for perfect haggle) TRing as a rogue and then back to bard for their past life feats.

I made the decision to sacrifice the 3rd spell pen enchantment for lingering song 3. I rarely end up having trouble with spell pen, at least with content I've been facing, and to me it seems the lingering song is worth it, especially when dealing with pugs. I may choose to switch it back in a few days though.

I'm still a bit iffy on the survivability of this character though. However, once I get access to Necro 4, I can get a minos helm (at a cost of 25 SP from my wiz 7 hat), and once I hit 1750 favor I'll get a +2 CON tome, both of which will be of significant benefit. I'm certainly not gonna be meleeing Harry anytime soon, but once I get finished I certainly won't be getting one-shotted when I'm not paying attention.

Thanks again for the great guide and helpful advice. Been a long, occasionally hard road to 20, but definitely a fun one.

[Anderei]

Ok - so between haggle (10 AP) and human versatility (another 10 AP - which I assume is also being used for haggle?) you have more than enough AP to spare that, if you wanted to work in the entire lingering song line, you could do it with a lot of AP to spare.

Well you would have let go of the healing enhancements then, I currently cannot login to my hagglebard, but I can tell you, yes it is a close call on the APs. I spent it a little different than the queen build, but more or less it is the same. And human versality 4 is nice, like you go to shared bank, pull all the expensive weapons from your other toon, go to the House D broker, put all your stuff in there and the vendor says 600.000G, you hit greater heroism, 640.000, focus songs, 660.000, versalit5 700.000 (okay the numbers aren't correct and Im not in the mood to make exact math, but everytime I hit the versality button I smiled at the free extra money)

Believe it or not, as a spellsinger who is not holding down his left mouse button through all of the content, resinging every 5 minutes is not a problem. Having a nice SP bar (1300SP), no match against a FvS, but still not bad for a bard either, you do care about enhancements to your spellcasting ability much more than for IMHO rather very optional stuff like lingering. With this build (without toughness) your are not kiting anything anyway.

And believe it or not, for me this toon is not for epic content. I dont mind not going into epics with the hagglebard, after all he is there for haggling, I dont mind not flagging him for ToD, yes altough I had very much fun leveling him to 20, and he is still very welcomed in shroud runs, when pushing him from 19 to 20 I ran mostly with parties who were unable to find a cleric/fvs, and most of them said they didn't believe it at first I can make up as a complete healer but I did and contrary to them even have the bards uber-buffs. his ultimate role is to be a support character for you other mains. I never intend to TR him, he is the hagglebot afterall no use in TRing, I don't want him to be the uber-duber thing, there are other toons for that. I think this is the major personal differences in purpose of a build like this you are not buying through all the pages of discussion.