Haggle Bard - Mississippi Queen

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

I think you should make the best bard you can

I saw your build back in November '09, and was going to comment. Not trying to negatively critique your build (honest)... but why did you go 6 CON on a drow?

With the **** that spellsingers take (me included) for low hit points (I took 14 CON, so 350ish hp), I cant imagine 6 CON what that would feel like on the battlefield...

I am pretty sure you are going to say you are able to survive (so many dont realize how resilient spellsingers can be) but I'm truly interested. The reason Im asking you this in this thread is because I'd like to see if I can draw correlations.

[Valindria]

As for the negotiator and haggle feats, purely optional. However, I have no doubt that those feats have served me far greater than any other feats I could have chosen.

I am pretty sure negotiator and haggle would be the two easiest feats to dump if you wanted to explore either more HP or higher will save.

This is a very flexible build. There many ways you can take it. Most people I've helped out change a few things, and I actually recommend that strongly. To be successful your bard MUST fit around your playstyle... actually it must BE your playstyle.

Unless you never plan to take your bard out of town, almost any feats are better then negotiator and SF:haggle.

Play style has little to do with it. Sure you can get by with out the feats I mentioned, but you can definitely get by getting 1.25% less gold from vendors when you Haggle is already miles above other classes. Not to mention haggle doesn't help with the AH. Well I guess it kinda of does having more money, always helps with the AH. I mean it doesn't help with selling Items in the AH.

The thing I do like about your build is you take those feats pretty late in the game. Basically if I was playing the bard I would have my haggle 5-9 points lower and when I was using the "Haggle bot" portion I would respec in the haggle feats and enhancements. I don't know. I don't want to bash it too much, just my thoughts.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

you can definitely get by getting 1.25% less gold from vendors when you Haggle is already miles above other classes.

When you consider that I buy thousands of scrolls and other healing supplies a week for guild clerics and friends (and myself of course), it really adds up.

Your math is slightly incorrect, because my haggle (without the 2 haggle feats) + Haggle III + Negotiator allows me to jump from 76 to 81 haggle, thats one haggle level higher. 76 Haggle and 80 haggle are milestones.

What Haggle III + Negotiator really gives you:

BUYING: I am buying at 80% of Base Item Value, 3% LESS (after rep quest bonus at a BROKER Level 9+ weapons) WITH SF:Haggle & Negotiator.

SELLING: I am selling at 32.50% of Base Item Value at a VENDOR, putting it only .50% less then a BROKER (33%)! Taking both feats allow me to sell 1% MORE with SF: Haggle & Negotiator..

With all the farming a hardcore player can achieve, even if you WEREN'T helping your guildies out, that's one heck of a lot of extra plat. I would say if you are funding a fairly large guild, there's real benefit to going this route.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

If you are in this just for yourself, and arent going to field a stable of toons and/or arent going to play often, it is a valid option to swap out SF:Haggle & Negotiator to something that will help you in action, in the quests. If you go this route, I would definitely go toughness at level 1 (You benefit from a total of 3 hitpoints). The second feat is totally YOU. Whatever you'd like to focus on.

If you are going to put a good amount of TIME into your toons and this game, and especially if you will be helping your guild buy supplies, this build AS IS will be the most profitable option.

There are actually several good reasons to go either way, but ONLY YOU can decide which is best

[RyuneT]

Hey there Leslie! Firstly, thanks for making this awesome guide. You know its rocking when its got 16 pages worth of stuff.

I'm a fairly new player, started as a cleric, at lvl 10 now and looking to start a bard as I'm more of a support kinda guy. (Only cleric in a guild of friends, thus the bard allows me to heal and cc some up to mid levels at least)

I'd like a suggestion on which kind of bard to finally decide upon. I've been reading too many different schools of thought and am a little confused. I know I definately want a spellsinger CHA based bard with decent/good cc and healing abilities. Initially looked at the heavy repeating crossbow human bard and seemed like the simplest to build, but after looking at the possibility of a fighter splash for the feats I'm rethinking again. The feats I will choose will likely be more casting based (Spell Pen, SF:Enchantment, Etc.) as opposed to DMG/ATK based ones (Point Blank, Rapid Reload, Etc.). Is the bard capstone worth going pure?

I only have a 28pt build at the moment and was thinking of the possibility of going drow for more stats. I was thinking either I ditch the heavy repeating crossbow and pick up raipiers/shortswords along with weapon finesse but I'll be extremely starved on feats. Once I get my 32pt build unlocked I'm definately rerolling again.

So at the end of the day I'm just asking for an opinion on whether it would be better to build a -
1) Human, Pure Bard, Heavy Repeating Crossbow, Healing/CC Spellsinger, Capstone
2) Human, Bard splash Fighter, Heavy Repeating Crossbow, Healing/CC Spellsinger
3) Drow, Pure Bard, Heavy Repeating Crossbow, Healing/CC Spellsinger, Capstone
4) Drow, Bard splash Fighter, Heavy Repeating Crossbow, Healing/CC Spellsinger
5) Drow, Pure Bard, Rapier/Shortsword, Healing/CC Spellsinger, Capstone
6) Drow, Bard splash Fighter, Rapier/Shortsword, Healing/CC Spellsinger

I know this all boils down to personal preference but just wondering if it would be a major difference in Healing/CC vs DMG output between all these builds. Definately haggle and UMD are gonna be of a decent level and optimised as far as possible. Still a fairly new player thus haggle does not have a huge impact for me to build around it but rather for it to supplement this 'jack of all trades' build.

[BoBoDaClown]

Hey there Leslie! Firstly, thanks for making this awesome guide. You know its rocking when its got 16 pages worth of stuff.

I'm a fairly new player, started as a cleric, at lvl 10 now and looking to start a bard as I'm more of a support kinda guy. (Only cleric in a guild of friends, thus the bard allows me to heal and cc some up to mid levels at least)

I'd like a suggestion on which kind of bard to finally decide upon. I've been reading too many different schools of thought and am a little confused. I know I definately want a spellsinger CHA based bard with decent/good cc and healing abilities. Initially looked at the heavy repeating crossbow human bard and seemed like the simplest to build, but after looking at the possibility of a fighter splash for the feats I'm rethinking again. The feats I will choose will likely be more casting based (Spell Pen, SF:Enchantment, Etc.) as opposed to DMG/ATK based ones (Point Blank, Rapid Reload, Etc.). Is the bard capstone worth going pure?

I only have a 28pt build at the moment and was thinking of the possibility of going drow for more stats. I was thinking either I ditch the heavy repeating crossbow and pick up raipiers/shortswords along with weapon finesse but I'll be extremely starved on feats. Once I get my 32pt build unlocked I'm definately rerolling again.

So at the end of the day I'm just asking for an opinion on whether it would be better to build a -
1) Human, Pure Bard, Heavy Repeating Crossbow, Healing/CC Spellsinger, Capstone
2) Human, Bard splash Fighter, Heavy Repeating Crossbow, Healing/CC Spellsinger
3) Drow, Pure Bard, Heavy Repeating Crossbow, Healing/CC Spellsinger, Capstone
4) Drow, Bard splash Fighter, Heavy Repeating Crossbow, Healing/CC Spellsinger
5) Drow, Pure Bard, Rapier/Shortsword, Healing/CC Spellsinger, Capstone
6) Drow, Bard splash Fighter, Rapier/Shortsword, Healing/CC Spellsinger

I know this all boils down to personal preference but just wondering if it would be a major difference in Healing/CC vs DMG output between all these builds. Definately haggle and UMD are gonna be of a decent level and optimised as far as possible. Still a fairly new player thus haggle does not have a huge impact for me to build around it but rather for it to supplement this 'jack of all trades' build.

1) Human, Pure Bard.
No Repeater, unless you want to for RP reasons. Saves you a feat and makes you a better combatant by going at it with a two hander (use Master's Touch). Start with 18 Cha. 14Str 14Con.(assuming 28pt build - other wise more con/str).
Feats:
1) Extend
1) Toughness
3) Emp Heal/Maximise
6) Spell Foc 1
9) Spell Foc 2
12) Spell Pen
15) Spell Pen
18) Heighten.

This gives you a CC bard who can heal - what you asked for. Also allows better dps, via str. and THF.

Hope that helps.

And yes - 'pure' is very important for CC.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

Hey there Leslie! Firstly, thanks for making this awesome guide. You know its rocking when its got 16 pages worth of stuff.

My pleasure more then welcomed.

Go human. 18 CHA. Max Human Versatility (helps UMD and haggle if you choose to work those skills). Bobo is right on target with stats. You will be on lookout for a +2 strength tome to get your base strength to 16. This will increase your to-hit and damage output.

The only feat I would recommend against is heighten. This is a very popular choice amongst old school CC'ers. However, I have learned that its largely unnecessary for a CC bard. IMHO, as long as blanket immunities are prevalent in higher level areas, heighten serves too limited a purpose to require using a valuable feat slot for having it. I can easily CC any creature that ISNT immune. And no, I don't have +3 cha tome either (this will also be on your short list of gear). As for what I would replace heighten with? I would probably go Force of Personality instead. That way you beef up your Will Save. That becomes much more valuable than it is for Mississippee, because I'm not in the front line as often as you will be.

Why Greataxe? All you need is Masters touch spell. No feat or enhancement cost and bam, you are now a two handed fighter that can hit hard (no, not as hard as a dps specced fighter or barbarian). Now you can leave your feats open for CC. Taking both CC lines of feats (spell pen and focus) are very important. And you want the bard capstone. Its vital.

Playstyle: One of your biggest assets to your party are BUFFS. You can do what no other class can do with you bard specific songs. USE THEM! Max Inspire Attack & Damage songs (if you are playing with newish players the max attack can come in handy). Inspire Bravery II. Haste, rage, blur, displacement, stoneskin on yourself and party (when applicable). Resist 11 wands, Protection potions, and fireshield scrolls ensure survivability. Secondary job is to generate potent DPS. Divine power in the form of clickies and scrolls can seriously enhance your to-hit. Great for high AC mobs. Debuffing should also a specialty. Haste and a high jump ensures you can jump over trash mobs to get to the back of the line where the rangers/clerics/casters tend to be located.

[RyuneT]

Thanks Bobo and Leslie! I have a much clearer view for the direction of the bard. I guess it isn't all about heavy repeating crossbows or TWF! +1rep to both of you (I hope I know how this works!).

I'll post on the progress of the bard (when I get to it) and I'm sure it'll work out fine. Thanks once again you two!

[BoBoDaClown]

My pleasure more then welcomed.

Go human. 18 CHA. Max Human Versatility (helps UMD and haggle if you choose to work those skills). Bobo is right on target with stats. You will be on lookout for a +2 strength tome to get your base strength to 16. This will increase your to-hit and damage output.

The only feat I would recommend against is heighten. This is a very popular choice amongst old school CC'ers. However, I have learned that its largely unnecessary for a CC bard. IMHO, as long as blanket immunities are prevalent in higher level areas, heighten serves too limited a purpose to require using a valuable feat slot for having it. I can easily CC any creature that ISNT immune. And no, I don't have +3 cha tome either (this will also be on your short list of gear). As for what I would replace heighten with? I would probably go Force of Personality instead. That way you beef up your Will Save. That becomes much more valuable than it is for Mississippee, because I'm not in the front line as often as you will be.

Why Greataxe? All you need is Masters touch spell. No feat or enhancement cost and bam, you are now a two handed fighter that can hit hard (no, not as hard as a dps specced fighter or barbarian). Now you can leave your feats open for CC. Taking both CC lines of feats (spell pen and focus) are very important. And you want the bard capstone. Its vital.

Playstyle: One of your biggest assets to your party are BUFFS. You can do what no other class can do with you bard specific songs. USE THEM! Max Inspire Attack & Damage songs (if you are playing with newish players the max attack can come in handy). Inspire Bravery II. Haste, rage, blur, displacement, stoneskin on yourself and party (when applicable). Resist 11 wands, Protection potions, and fireshield scrolls ensure survivability. Secondary job is to generate potent DPS. Divine power in the form of clickies and scrolls can seriously enhance your to-hit. Great for high AC mobs. Debuffing should also a specialty. Haste and a high jump ensures you can jump over trash mobs to get to the back of the line where the rangers/clerics/casters tend to be located.

Cool. I'm an 'old school CCer" - sounds like retro fashionable or something ;p

Just offering why I have heighten:
+1 DC to Mass Suggest
+2 to Otto's Sphere or Dominate Person

If you use those spells, Heighten is better than Spell Foc.

While I don't like blanket immunities, all the high level areas have quests where CC is still perfectly valid. However, some of the mobs do have very high saves, which is why i eke out every DC possible by taking all the feats.

While FOP - meh - maybe good at low levels, but it seems very rare that my bard gets hit by will based spells at high levels.

All just opinion of course; it would be boring if we all played the same

[BoBoDaClown]

Thanks Bobo and Leslie! I have a much clearer view for the direction of the bard. I guess it isn't all about heavy repeating crossbows or TWF! +1rep to both of you (I hope I know how this works!).

I'll post on the progress of the bard (when I get to it) and I'm sure it'll work out fine. Thanks once again you two!

All good.

Give MASter's Touch some time. It is buggy - so what it does is creat about five seconds of lag when ou cast it or it come off. This isn't a problem once you hit a certain level (say 7 - when it lasting 14minutes extended - enough time that the lag only hits at shrine time), but can be annoying at level one - when it only lasts 2 minutes extended.

So give it a shot and decide whether or not the lag is bad enough to justify sword and shield until Master's Touch lasts longer for you (it lasts two minutes per level -extended).

You'll understand what I mean when you use it

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

Cool. I'm an 'old school CCer" - sounds like retro fashionable or something ;p

Just offering why I have heighten:
+1 DC to Mass Suggest
+2 to Otto's Sphere or Dominate Person

If you use those spells, Heighten is better than Spell Foc.

While I don't like blanket immunities, all the high level areas have quests where CC is still perfectly valid. However, some of the mobs do have very high saves, which is why i eke out every DC possible by taking all the feats.

While FOP - meh - maybe good at low levels, but it seems very rare that my bard gets hit by will based spells at high levels.

All just opinion of course; it would be boring if we all played the same

Heck yea it would be boring to all play the same Wasn't trying to label you an old time CCer, unless you were tossin around CC since mod 1 or 2 like I was hehe

The only real important thing to understand feat-wise is to to choose based upon how you are playing your bard. The feat which would be most effective in the most situations would be my choice. This is why bards are so much fun for so many people. Bards can be custom-fit to your playstyle so well.

FoP is basically an insurance policy. Like most insurance, you rarely need it, but when you do, it can pay for itself. The higher your CHA modifier gets, the higher your will save gets. I agree fully with Bobo tho, Miss gets hit very seldom with will based spells. If you are working the front line often, swinging a big ole axe, however, you WILL be called upon to save more often then any other spellsinger.

As for heighten, sure, a +1 or +2 is always good, but how often does it come into play? I can't see great value in improving Mass Suggest. Mine hits very well... gets almost everybody. Now Ottos Dancing ball I can see more value. As it is I hit as good as or better than most wizards. But I dont hit everyone, everytime, noone does. Hence I can qualify the value of heighten. If you are going to push CC harder than melee, I can see taking Heighten.

If you want to push your melee more, you can take a feat to enhance your to-hit/DPS. Improved Critical would be beneficial for a huge increase in DPS. All your slashing weapons benefit. Weapon Focus: Slashing adds a +1 to hit for all slashing weapons. That +1 will sometimes mean the difference between a hit and a miss. These melee feats would come in handy early and often. Considerations: Later, if you build a min2 greensteel greataxe, Improved Critical becomes moot because "keen" will replace it (while you are holding the min2 GS greataxe). However WF: Slashing will still give you the +1 to-hit. Decisions, decisions!!

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

One note about Bard THF/Masters Touch. Don't forget that you are proficient in quarterstaffs. Also dont discount their effectiveness. Even though their swing speed has slowed a tad in a recent update, they can still be quite effective. If Masters Touch really effects you negatively in the early levels, just seek out high quality quarterstaffs. Look for as good a prefix or suffix at first, then look for as good a prefix and suffix as you get high enough to wield them.

They make great disrupters, banishers, and smiters. I was using a flaming quarterstaff of disruption for a while when I 1st built my fighter (long before the days of greensteel). Hela fun because it looked different and surely was effective.

Also always have one weapon with the highest + possible when starting out. For example, A plain ole +5 quarterstaff beats a +1 quaterstaff of pure good anyday if the +1 weapon swings and misses.

On the magical side of things, be sure to experiment with a hypnotise/sound burst combo. It's a "magical Muhammad Ali" at early levels... and allows you run circles around the baddies.

[Anderei]

I second that, I randomly found a holy quaterstaff of lesser undead bane as a hand down and I owned deleras with the bard *g*

[Anderei]

(oops)

[x1372]

Wanted to say thanks again for the great guide and that my 13 spellsinger is doing great. I've gone slightly off the path temporarily since the low duration of my songs was an issue, but I figure that in the long run I'll go back to removing lingering song.

Just wanted to know, is there a "one-stop post" or something that lists all the commonly bought items, and everything that you can do to make them as cheap as possible? I had to dig through the thread for a while to find the link to the quests that get you discounts for which areas (and thus which adventure packs I needed to purchase).

Also, does the psionic bonus from the market succubi game stack with everything else? I was assuming so, and if so its another way to crank up your haggle for a brief time.

Are there any other hidden or recent +skills boosts that have become available more recently that aren't mentioned in the first post? And does anyone know what the current theoretical max haggle is, if you had literally everything available to you?

[Anderei]

I think the Mississippi hits the theoretical max pretty much. Take a +4 Cha tome, and exceptional charisma from the shroud. However who really has another bard with him to cast competence on him and a monk for the dance so you really hit the maximal max? Normally I pass these two.

The theoretical maxmimum is actually a bit higher:
Having multiple rogue past lives and picking "sneak of the shadows" several times for +1 haggle each time (this however really yields to a toon that hardly can leave the town). And have all past lives for a completionist +2 haggle. However I really don't think this invested time eeeeeeever pays for that few + to haggle.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

Yeah, when I built Mississippee, my goal was building in the highest haggle possible, with the least gear/time invested, and STILL field a toon that is not only playable, but who's CC could raise eyebrows. In other words, fortify the build via stats, feats & enhancements. The mojo is in the CHA. Healing, UMD, & CC all fall into place nicely.

To go beyond the Haggle I've worked into the build is possible now that we've hit level 20 and can TR, but its really just not feasible to me. As Anderei states, TR would be a monumental waste of time for a +2 haggle.

It was important to me to make sure I would not gimp anything important, so I could be effective healing & CC'in at will. That way, any quest that can benefit from healing or CC, I've got a job.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

I had to dig through the thread for a while to find the link to the quests that get you discounts for which areas (and thus which adventure packs I needed to purchase).

Haha, ya know considering all the hits this thread gets, I was thinking of creating a small table of contents.. for meat & potatoe links. Now if I could only find the time!

As for being F2P, I don't know if you've found this on your own, but I also author this handy thread you may find useful. Check it out: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=200595.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

Here's the correct math for a level 20, Human, MAX CHA Bard.

23: Ranks
12: Charisma of 35 (14 for 38 CHA)
15: Haggle +15 item
03: Feat: Skill Focus (Haggle)
02: Feat: Negotiator
04: Enhancement (Haggle IV)
02: Luck Item (head of Good Fortune)
06: Greensteel CHA skills +6 item
----------------------
STANDING: +67 Haggle

I click these buffs in this order, longest buff 1st:

04: Greater Heroism
01: Focusing Chant Spell
05: Enhancement (Human Versatility IV)
----------------------
SELF BUFFED: +77 Haggle


02: Fellow Bard Inspire Competence
02: Monk buff (from Monk feat: Walk of the Sun)
03: House Deneith potion
----------------------
TOTAL: +84 Haggle (My personal max haggle, NO CHA TOME.)

Pushing it further: (+86 Haggle with a 38 CHA = +3 CHA tome) (+88 with a 41 CHA = Greensteel +3 weapon)

[Anderei]

Just for the theory a 1Brd/169Rogue with 4 times rogue skill fokus has +1 haggle compared to a 20Brd, as he can take the bard haggle Enhancement once. Again only theory, wouldn't do it, since out of town a) a useless splash b) a rogue without improved evasion is meh. But maybe something for people who have a pure rogue or a 19/1 rogue laying around they don't want anymore and LR+1 it into a haggle bot.

Edit: Sorry wrong, a pure bard still stays the best haggle (by 1 or 2), since the 19/1 rogue would not have access to bard charisma enhancements.