Definitive Cleric Turning Thread

**cinoaz** · 12-30-2008, 02:09 AM

This post is a first in a series of post about Turn Undead. You can view the second post here.

I decided to research this to it's fullest, using actual equipment and actual numbers:

Given:
Cleric lvl 16
Chr mod is +7

Edit: I haven't equipped the Radiant Server Set yet, so I don't know what "Exceptional Bonus" this provides for turn undead.

Items:

Seraphim Helm (Sacred and Hallowed)
Lorriks Shield (+2 to Turn level, +2 to damage and +4 to Max HD Turned)
Gauntlets of Eternity (+2 to Turn level, +2 to damage and +4 to Max HD Turned)
Edit: New item Drops from the Spire quest in Deleras Graveyard. Same bonuses as Gauntlets of Eternity for Turn Undead Checks, but they don't stack with the Gauntlets.

Basically the same bonus at a lower level for Turn Undead that is, the Gauntlets have other bonuses worth getting IMO
Seek Eternal Rest (+4 to level)

First I was lead to believe that the items stacked for the Turn Undead calculation, but, my numbers were not adding up. So, I decided to settle the issue once and for all. Below are my findings, what stacks with what, and a conclusion about Turning Undead in DDO.

Wearing Nothing at all:

(Combat): You roll to see how effective your turn undead is. You roll a 9 : you hit foes up to 18 hit dice.

9 [roll] + 7 [CHR Mod] = 16--> Check table table says 16 (Cleric Level) + 2(From Roll per Table) = 18 Max HD <- Calculation works

Helm Only (+2 to both Effective level and Max Hit Die)

(Combat): You roll to see how effective your turn undead is. You roll a 12 : you hit foes up to 23 hit dice.

12 [roll] + 7 [CHR Mod] = 19--> Check table table says 16(Cleric Level) + 2 (Helm's Effective Level Increase) + 3 (Per Table) = 21 + 2 (Helm Bonus) = 23 Max HD <- Calculation works

Shield Only (+2 to both Effective level and Max Hit Die)

(Combat): You roll to see how effective your turn undead is. You roll a 16 : you hit foes up to 24 hit dice.

16 [roll] + 7 [CHR Mod] = 23--> Check table table says 16(Cleric Level) + 2 (Shield Effective Level Increase) + 4 (Per Table) = 22 + 2 (shield Bonus) = 24 Max HD <-
Calculation works

Gauntlets Only (+2 to both Effective level and Max Hit Die) (Or new Deleras Item)

(Combat): You roll to see how effective your turn undead is. You roll a 14 : you hit foes up to 23 hit dice.

14 [roll] + 7 [CHR Mod] = 21--> Check table table says 16(Cleric Level) + 2 (Gauntlet Effective Level Increase) + 3 (Per Table) = 21 + 2 (Gauntlet Bonus) = 23 Max HD
<- Calculation works

SER

(Combat): You roll to see how effective your turn undead is. You roll a 15 : you hit foes up to 24 hit dice.

15 [roll] + 7 [CHR Mod] = 22--> Check table table says 16(Cleric Level) + 4 (Per Table) = 20 + 4 (SER Bonus) = 24 Max HD <- Calculation works

Now for some Combo numbers

Gauntlet(or New Delera's Item) and Helm

(Combat): You roll to see how effective your turn undead is. You roll a 14 : you hit foes up to 23 hit dice.

14 [roll] + 7 [CHR Mod] = 21--> Check table table says 16(Cleric Level) + 2 (Gauntlet/Helm Effective Level Increase) + 3 (Per Table) = 21 + 2 (Gauntlet/Helm Bonus) = 23 Max HD <- Either the Gauntlet or Helm is being used, since they are both the same bonuses, it's obvious they don't stack.

Gauntlet and Lorriks

(Combat): You roll to see how effective your turn undead is. You roll a 9 : you hit foes up to 22 hit dice.

9 [roll] + 7 [CHR Mod] = 16--> Check table table says 16(Cleric Level) + 2 (Gauntlet/Lorrik Effective Level Increase) + 2 (Per Table) = 20 + 2 (Gauntlet/Lorrik Bonus) = 22 Max HD <- Either Gauntlet or Lorriks Shield is being applied, since they are both the same bonuses, it's obvious they don't stack.

Helm and Lorriks

(Combat): You roll to see how effective your turn undead is. You roll a 16 : you hit foes up to 24 hit dice.

16 [roll] + 7 [CHR Mod] = 23 --> Check table table says 16(Cleric Level) + 2 (Helm/Lorrik Effective Level Increase) + 4 (Per Table) = 22 + 2 (Helm/Lorrik Bonus) = 24 Max HD <- Either Helm or Lorriks Shield is being applied, since they are both the same bonuses, it's obvious they don't stack.

Now throw SER into the Mix

SER and Gauntlet

(Combat): You roll to see how effective your turn undead is. You roll a 19 : you hit foes up to 28 hit dice.

19 [roll] + 7 [CHR Mod] = 26 --> Check table table says 16(Cleric Level) + 2 (Gauntlet Effective Level Increase) + 4 (Per Table) = 22 + 2 (Gauntlet Bonus) + 4 (SER Bonus) = 28 Max HD <- So, it seems, SER stacks with the Gauntlets

Let's check out Max HD turned

(Combat): You roll for turning damage. You roll a 6 : 39 total hit dice of enemies can be turned..

6 [roll] + 16 (Cleric Level) + 2 (Gauntlets Effective Cleric level bonus) + 7 (CHR Mod) + 4 (SER) + 4 (Gauntlets Total HD) = 39 HD

So, it seems, SER and Gauntlets stack for both Max HD Creature and Max HD turned

SER and Helm

(Combat): You roll to see how effective your turn undead is. You roll a 12 : you hit foes up to 27 hit dice.

12 [roll] + 7 [CHR Mod] = 19 --> Check table table says 16(Cleric Level) + 2 (Helm Effective Level Increase) + 3 (Per Table) = 21 + 2 (Helm Bonus) + 4 (SER Bonus) = 28 Max HD <- So, it seems, SER stacks with the Gauntlets

(Combat): You roll for turning damage. You roll a 10 : 39 total hit dice of enemies can be turned.

10 [roll] + 16 (Cleric Level) + 2 Helm Effective Cleric level bonus) + 7 (CHR Mod) + 4 (SER) = 39 HD
Yep, calculation works out.

So, the end result, the ONLY thing that stacks are Highest Bonus, Plus Feats and Enhancements if you have them.

Knowing this, you want items that have:

1. An Effective Cleric Bonus
2. A Max HD Turned Bonus
3. Total HD Turned Bonus

The only two items that are in game that have all three bonuses are:

1. Gauntlets of Eternity (Reaver Drop)
2. Lorriks Shield (Hound Drop)

A final option is the Silver Flame Shield out of Temple of Vol. That gives you a +6 to your effective Turning level.

Now, the question would be, If you have both the Gauntlets and the Silver Flame shield equipped, and you have SER casted which seems to stack with everything, But, the Silver Flame bonus would be larger tha the Gauntlet bonus for Effective Cleric Level and Shield Bonus would be used in lieu of Gauntlet Bonus. But, the Gauntlets still have Max Hit Die and Total Hit Die bonuses, which should still be counted.

The hypothetical calculation could be:

(Combat): You roll to see how effective your turn undead is. You roll a 15 : **your hypothetical** hit foes up to 36 hit dice.

15 [roll] + 7 [CHR Mod] = 22 --> Check table table says 16(Cleric Level) + 6 (Silver Flame Shield Effective Level Increase) + 4 (Per Table) + 4 (Feat and Enhancement bonus) = 30 + 2 (Gauntlet Bonus) + 4 (SER Bonus) = 36 Max HD <- So, the max HD baddie you can turn would be a 36, subtract 4 if you don't have the Feat and Enhancement line, bringing it to 32.

A final thought, So, what can you turn, with, say, a 36 HD turn roll, well, I have no idea.....maybe a skeleton in Delera's on normal.....

Conclusion:

Thus, the debate begins. A cleric's ability to "Turn" undead is greatly reduced due the shear number of undead in encounters. Now a Sorc or Wizard, who has Halt Undead, have no such limitation, just a Will save if that and can immobilize any number of undead in an area.

So a Level 3 caster spell is unbelievably more powerful than a Level 16 Cleric, with Full Turn feat and Enhancements, Epic Loot, and whatever spell bonus you can muster.

To rub more salt into the wound. Once you turn a baddie, it still goes through it's queued attacks even though it's turned. In my testing, I saw a steady 3 attacks by a baddie, after it was turned. Halt Undead has no such *grace period*. So, after I turned a skellie, I proceeded to get attacked 3 times, depending on what those attacks are, could do serious damage.

A caster, who succeeds on a Halt Undead, get's attacked 0 times after the skellie is halted.

Yeah, Turn Undead seems woefully wrong in DDO.

**Fetchi** · 12-30-2008, 11:07 AM

Originally Posted by cinoaz

Yeah, Turn Undead seems woefully wrong in DDO.

I decided to edit my original post because it wasn't very constructive. I just wanted to say good research! I hope that turn undead can be fixed. I have had bad experience with it as well. I don't use it on my capped cleric or paladin. I don't think it's even in my toolbar anymore. =(

**Kalanth** · 01-03-2009, 09:11 PM

That is excellent research. I know that I gave up on Turn Undead with my cleric ages ago because it was useless. It is important to note that when using turn undead the chances of making something just pop are slim and it is more likely that the undead will retreat from the cleric (which is annoying to say the least). These numbers are more insulting when you look at the paladin and wonder just why that was even an option for that class in 3/3.5 D&D.

Honestly, what I would like to see with Turn Undead is a change to how it is in 4th edition which would make it effectively usefull in DDO. A simple attack vs a saving throw and it is treated as an AoE which causes the undead to be pushed back. The damage increases from 1d10 up to 6d10 by end game in 4th as well. This change was made because Wizards realized what DDO players have known for a long time. Past about level 5 turn undead is a rather useless feature to the cleric and just does not cut it as an option.

**Arkat** · 01-04-2009, 12:21 AM

Question to the OP:

Assuming the Silver Flame Shield from the trinket turn in after doing the Abbot is not an option, what would be your ideal (best) equipment setup for Turning Undead?

**DoctorWhofan** · 01-04-2009, 12:25 AM

Good on you, OP!

Cuz turning sucks and I stop trying to get it. THe problem is you CANNOT pick your targets, ala pnp. If I had 24 hitdie of turning power, I'd take out the casters first. Or a orange named.

So, for now, my turns are solely dedicated to DVs. Hundreds of casters thank me so they can cast hold undead.

**Arkat** · 01-04-2009, 12:35 AM

Originally Posted by DoctorWhofan

Good on you, OP!

Cuz turning sucks and I stop trying to get it. THe problem is you CANNOT pick your targets, ala pnp.

Are you suggesting that in PnP you CAN choose which undead you wish to turn?? If you are, that is incorrect (at least under the 3.5 rules). The undead with the lowest hit dice within range of the turn, are affected first. There is no picking and choosing.

If you're not suggesting that, then it would certainly be a nice thing to be able to do but I doubt it will ever happen in DDO.

**cinoaz** · 01-04-2009, 01:01 AM

Originally Posted by Arkat

Question to the OP:

Assuming the Silver Flame Shield from the trinket turn in after doing the Abbot is not an option, what would be your ideal (best) equipment setup for Turning Undead?

So, the end result, the ONLY thing that stacks are Highest Bonus, Plus Feats and Enhancements if you have them.

Knowing this, you want items that have:

1. An Effective Cleric level Bonus
2. A Max HD Turn Bonus
3. Total HD Turn Bonus

The only two items that are in game that have all three bonuses are:

1. Gauntlets of Eternity (Reaver Drop)
2. Lorriks Shield (Hound Drop)

So, depending if you like to run Reaver or Hound Raids, either one of those items, plus having SER casted on yourself, will give you both highest HD affected and Max HD affected.

If you are looking to max out highest HD affected, then the Silver Flame Shield and SER tops it out, but you sacrifice Max HD affected if you go with the Silver Flame Shield, it doesn't boost total HD, just highest HD.

I believe, truly, that DMs realized how nerfed Turn Undead truly was. I suspect that the number of clerics actually using Turn Undead steadily decreased.

So, to "reward" people who build a High CHR cleric, the Cleric Capstone uses a Clerics Turn Undead ability to cast the Divine Intervention.

If you build a lvl 16 cleric, but, left CHR out of the build, the Cleric Capstone is useless. If you build a turning cleric, I'm sorry if you did cause I made the same mistake, then those turn undeads can be used for something more than a caster recharge station.

In PnP, Turn Undead is a Divine ability, as undead are the bane of Clerics, their most hated creature, thus, one would believe Clerics would develop the strongest weapon against Undead, and Turn Undead is suppose to do that.

In DDO world, well, I'm going to stop ranting now....

**DoctorWhofan** · 01-04-2009, 04:08 AM

Hmmmm. Well, I guess I had a really cool DM, cuz I got to target of choice for the turn' s first hitdie (as long it was in range) andthing else was passed down to the nearest undead at the DM's discrestion. Must have been a house rule.

**Griphon** · 01-04-2009, 05:10 AM

Kudos to OP

Excellent Research into the Suckage into the Alternate Usage of Divine Vitality.
(C'mon we know all clerics take extra turn feat and enhancements for the DVs or DH! Not the turning.

**Talon_Moonshadow** · 01-04-2009, 09:30 AM

Originally Posted by DoctorWhofan

Hmmmm. Well, I guess I had a really cool DM, cuz I got to target of choice for the turn' s first hitdie (as long it was in range) andthing else was passed down to the nearest undead at the DM's discrestion. Must have been a house rule.

I think the rules say closest first.

**Talon_Moonshadow** · 01-04-2009, 09:40 AM

What I would love to see is for someone to give a definative list of undead HD. And a way to determine just what can be turned in this game.

However.....I disagree with your conclusion that it is useless.
It is very powerful. (Although I will give you annoying)

Madstone.....those giant skellies are very damgerous for some groups. But guess what?! They can be turned! Even on Elite!

There is a huge amount of undead quests in this game. And the power to make a whole mob stop attacking you is very underrated IMO.

But it does depend on the group. And it does take a significant investment for a cleric to be even marginally sucessful at it. (and I have yet to make a Pal who is the slightest bit decent at it)

But I will also give you that there are many things broekn about it in DDO as well.

Monsters running forever to the end of their leash. The attack Cue (I've been lighting bolted to death in the OPrchard so many times, and then watched Arcanes run in terror from my ghost.

)

What seems to me to be inflated HD on all monsters.

Add incorporial undead that flee through walls............especially ones you need to kill to get a gate to open.....etc.

Then there are the other players. No one likes to chase anything........casters think they own your DVs....etc.

Actually, people don't appreciate any form of CC as it is........and turning is right up there with charms and Fear.

Oh, and just tested. Giant skellies in Subterrain CAN BE TURNED!
But only on a very good role, and it seems that prob only one at a time due to such high HD.
(Hard to tell since they beat me up so bad......but I think I turned 2 of them.....or three if you count the one that was turned before and after my use of death pact.......positive that I examined one still hovering over my corpse and it showed that he was indeed cowered......I'm sure he would have fled from me just as soon as he got in a few more attacks on me.....

)

**Aspenor** · 01-04-2009, 10:25 AM

Originally Posted by Talon Moonshadow

I think the rules say closest first.

Rules rules rules....

DM > rules

**Lymnus** · 01-04-2009, 10:34 AM

Originally Posted by Aspenor

Rules rules rules....

DM > rules

DM = rules

**Favis** · 10-21-2009, 02:42 PM

Originally Posted by cinoaz

So a Level 3 caster spell is unbelievably more powerful than a Level 16 Cleric, with Full Turn feat and Enhancements, Epic Loot, and whatever spell bonus you can muster.

Comparing with the lvl 9 spells WB ...

**JOTMON** · 10-21-2009, 04:03 PM

Not many will disagree that a rework of the whole turn undead ability is due.

I realized by level 5 that my turning undead ability was on the steady decline.
Went from Destroying some and fearing the rest to fearing 1 or 2 to no effect.
Eventually even the rest of the party was .. hey stop trying to turn those undead, let the caster halt undead or just heal them because we are better off just fighting these things instead of partially fearing them and having the runaway skelly's aggro everything else down the hall.

A cleric or Paladin should be the bane of things undead, but look at the cleric spells and try and find a good destructive low level spell for skellies as compared to wiz/sorc.

Halt undead.. best undead control spell.. they don't runaround so you have to chase them down, they just stand there, and a cleric doesn't have access to the spell.

I would love to see the halt undead aspect incorporated into the turning. Critfail=Destroyed, FailedSave=Halted, partialsave=feared, Save=no effect.

**cinoaz** · 10-21-2009, 11:12 PM

"I would love to see the halt undead aspect incorporated into the turning. Critfail=Destroyed, FailedSave=Halted, partialsave=feared, Save=no effect. "

Yep, me too. I keep hearing that DDO is PnP. Heck, I assume BorrO would chime in and say how the two are identical, but, they aren't.

Changes needed to be made to make DDO work as a Real Time MMO in comparison to PnP. I would say I understand (although will argue about some) why those changes are made and agree with them in the end.

Turn Undead is one of those things that DDO follows *Precisely* to PnP and that there lies the problem.

Like you said, have Turn Undead be a CHR roll like Halt Undead. Just follow the above example and it works. Each undead gets a roll and go from there.

**Letrii** · 10-22-2009, 06:12 AM

Originally Posted by cinoaz

"I would love to see the halt undead aspect incorporated into the turning. Critfail=Destroyed, FailedSave=Halted, partialsave=feared, Save=no effect. "

Yep, me too. I keep hearing that DDO is PnP. Heck, I assume BorrO would chime in and say how the two are identical, but, they aren't.

Changes needed to be made to make DDO work as a Real Time MMO in comparison to PnP. I would say I understand (although will argue about some) why those changes are made and agree with them in the end.

Turn Undead is one of those things that DDO follows *Precisely* to PnP and that there lies the problem.

Like you said, have Turn Undead be a CHR roll like Halt Undead. Just follow the above example and it works. Each undead gets a roll and go from there.

How can you partially save or are you talking about a secondary save if you fail first one?

**thegreatcthulhu** · 10-22-2009, 09:23 AM

From the perspective of a Paladin, regarding Turn Undead....

I think much of your post reinforces the opinion that Turn Undead is more or less just "ammo" for Divine Light, Divine Might and/or some of the other Paladin enhancement abilities. Hence, I think Turn Undead doubly deserves consideration for improvement, at this point.

(I admit there is a chance of error in my opinion. I have yet to use the Paladin's Hunter of the Dead, mainly due to the lack of potential that Turn Undead already possesses.)

**Shade** · 10-22-2009, 09:53 AM

Originally Posted by cinoaz

A final thought, So, what can you turn, with, say, a 36 HD turn roll, well, I have no idea..

I think this is the part of the post most people missed.

You have no idea.

36 HD is a ton. A basic Deleras Skeleton has 6-10 HD, you can get 3-6 at a time, while fearing all the rest. You can turn almost every undead in the game with that score. And you only have 24 charisma.. A maxed out turn spec cleric can reach 36+ fairly easily, along with having the feats the boost it well beyond your numbers.

Turn undead used to be fairly weak years ago. It was massively boosted a few updates ago.

These days a proper turn spec cleric at about lvl7/8 can solo all of Deleras using primarily turn undead as his primary means of killing.

At lvl20 maxxed out you could clear the entire necropolis on elite without much trouble.

It's balanced so that a cleric heavily spec'd with it will do well. A cleric like yours who has no real specialization in it at all will not do well.

Just the nature of the ability, you have to specialize for it to work well.

Is it worth making a turn spec cleric? No not really, giving the fact any real challenging undead is either immune or has enough turn resistance that it takes too many rolls to kill. But the options is there, and it does work.

I don't have one personally, but a friend of mine has 6 different clerics, one of which is speicalized in turning.. And his turns work fine. Seen them eliminate entire rooms in Littany of the dead.

Re: Halt Undead.
Halt May be better for deleras, giving the no-save feature of it there. But any other dungeon in the game undead have a serious will save, making this spell less likely to land then turn undead. Also iirc - it breaks on damage.. unlike turned undead.

**Favis** · 10-22-2009, 02:20 PM