Reaver Redux

[Lithic]

I just did a reaver this morning and I have to say I am extremely disapointed with how it was changed. I know this is old news to most, but I personally had only been in one reaver since the change (as a caster), and had been killed early on by my own admitted stupidity hehe. I'm going to try to keep this post civil, but I expect much of my frustration to bleed out into my typing.

Now the old complaint was that casters and clerics were all you needed to beat the raid (and only 1 or 2 of each would do it), while the 9 others would sit on their thumbs and wait for their chests. Melees especially were charitiy cases.

There were many fixes proposed for this, which would have led to a very fun raid using everyone in the party. These included varying the elemental type in the big room, though adding more of them and boosting their power.

Unfortunately whoever changed the reaver raid apparently did everything possible to ruin this quest. First the saves of the elementals seem to have doubled (Even a doubly-enervated elemental would often make a DC 32 Finger of Death save, more than half will waltz through even a spellsung enchantment specced caster's Mind-fogged dancing ball). Second is the elementals in the puzzle room are ALL air elementals. The one room where a melee with a greater elemental bane could actually contribute is now a ping-pong fest (with us as the ball). The only way this quest could be more annoying is to make them all red named (which I expect in the next patch to be honest).

Please bring this quest back to something fun to run every 3 days. Change 33% of the airs into fires, the other 33% into earths. Tell the earth elemetals to forget earthgrabbing a target if it obviously is immune to it. If this was done, then their increased saves wouldnt be a big deal. Alternatively since there is the whole "storm" theme which wouldnt really mesh with fire and earth elementals, you could add other plane of air monsters instead of the hated elementals. Djinni would work, maybe those tripping cats (Bezekira or w/e they are called), some wandering chain lightning/ball lightning/lightning bolt living spells, etc.

[Dirac]

No doubt as most I found the quest prior to the MoD 8 easy, but I often had fun. I'm not going to offer an opinion on the current difficulty of the quest (well, it's harder), but I certainly have not found it fun to do. It is also not fun to form a reaver raid anymore. Since one has to get enough casters and clerics, now it takes long to fill like the other raids. I was in a Reaver that failed to fill last week. That had never happened to me before.

Prior to MoD 8, The Reaver was the one raid in the game for which anyone could put up an LFM, accept anyone that wanted to join, fill in a matter of minutes, and have a very, very good chance of success.

Perhaps this meant that the raid was too easy and the disadvantages were worse than the advantages of having such a raid in the game, I don't know. I don't expect any developers to give answers, or even acknowledge the situation; but I humbly ask one thing.

I would like the data collected on the number of Reaver Runs done in the two months before and after MoD 8. Someone should look at that data and at least ask the question if this is a good or bad thing.

[Lehrman]

I love it. I have considerably more fun blasting them on my caster and blade barrier/symbol of fearing them on my cleric. Its still not very challenging, but its a lot more interesting than before.

[Dirac]

I love it. I have considerably more fun blasting them on my caster and blade barrier/symbol of fearing them on my cleric. Its still not very challenging, but its a lot more interesting than before.

I certainly understand where you are coming from and repect your opinion. Because you find it more fun, are you running the quest more post-MOD 8?

[Uska]

Still running it when I can find the time and while a little harder still havent failed it with any pug I have been in with my cleric even as solo cleric and did a 5 man no problem I do like kyour change ideas though.

[500520]

Am I The Only Who Still Find This Easy? Change your disco balls for solid and acid fogs. Change your FoD for Firewall, Fireball, and Scorching Ray. Have EVERYONE charge ASAP. Clerics should use all the excess mana from charge for Blade Barriers and Cometfalls. If caster gets Reaver aggro just call it out take him out of firewall and shield block with a cleric healing ya while MT gets aggro.

[Thailand_Dan]

It is more difficult, but have they increased the drop rate for tomes? I cannot remember how many times I heard people saying (before the Mod), this is my 100,000th run, and I still haven't pulled a +3 tome. I had run reaver (pre-Mod) about 20 times, always on elite, and only seen one tome drop in that time. Since the Mod, I have actually had a +3 CON drop for me, and seen a +3 STR drop for someone else, both on normal difficulty in 4 or 5 runs.

Maybe it is just variance. Who knows. Anyone else seen evidence of increased drop rate?

I agree, it was great pre-Mod to log on and get running within 5 minutes, and now LFM's are few and far between and take a while to fill. However, maybe this was a trade off the Dev's did to increase the drop rate of tomes. I could see the rationale, "If we are going to start giving out +3 tomes a lot more, lets make it hard enough to where no one in the party can just stand there and wait for the chest. Let's make it where tactics are actually used, and class/lvl/build is actually considered when parties are formed."

My first toon got blooded at level 16. My second, at level 13, and there was a level 10 (if I remember right) in the Tor run with me, who was getting reaver ready. Who knows how many peeps under 10 were buying relics off the AH, and getting blooded even earlier. Could you imagine any party leader for Reaver accepting a level 10 in their group now? The guy would be dead after the first wave of eles.

Just a thought.

[Dirac]

No one has said it is hard. It is harder than it was. I have certatinly been in PUGs that have failed, but I have not taken real statistics.

I have not noticed a change in tome drop rate. I have noticed a huge drop off in LFM's, and increase in difficulty in putting together Reaver raids.

I don't have really strong feelings about this, but I'll offer how the change has affected my playstyle: Prior to MoD 8, if I had 30-45 min and a character off timer, I would log on and start an reaver LFM, knowing I could fill and finish in that time. Now, I don't log on.

[Junts]

No one has said it is hard. It is harder than it was. I have certatinly been in PUGs that have failed, but I have not taken real statistics.

I have not noticed a change in tome drop rate. I have noticed a huge drop off in LFM's, and increase in difficulty in putting together Reaver raids.

I don't have really strong feelings about this, but I'll offer how the change has affected my playstyle: Prior to MoD 8, if I had 30-45 min and a character off timer, I would log on and start an reaver LFM, knowing I could fill and finish in that time. Now, I don't log on.

its not hard to run the reaver; its not hard to get a group together.


however, most people who did their every 3 days reaver 3/16 **** have stopped, because of how and why that was done.

running a dozen reavers in a row was an incredibly low-attention exercise; people would reform the same static or near-static group constnatly and put all their toons through, and it was extremely low-effort because -2 or 3 people would take turns doing the raid- and everyone else could go afk or troll the forums or whatever.

so it was a nice, laid back and basically zero-effort way to get raid loot and chests.

the raid is not noticably harder now, but it does require that more people pay attention, and -most people were only running the reaver for essentially free chances at +3 tomes in a raid they didnt have to expend any energy on whatsoever-.

now that they have to incur the slightest amount of energy (eg, pay attention while running a dozen reavers in a row for 6 hours), its no longer worth it to them.

the real answer is that it was never supposed to be that easy to have 4 of every raid item and 120 completions of a level 16 raid.

[lobode]

The first 2 times after the change I thought it was kind of fun(well actually funny), but now I won't run it at all. Air elementals are the most annoying thing in the game and the reaver rewards are not good enough to justify dealing with them like that in my opinion.


The Devs should really look into making new quest that add challenges rather than rehashing the old content as it is a waste of time. The player base will learn the fastest and easiest way though every quest and they will either go back to farming them or just stop running them as its not worth risk vs reward. So the only possible change you get out of making them harder(or more annoying) is less people running that quest. The more quest you make people not want to run the more people you have leave the game out of boredom.

[Jay203]

if they change the constant air tossing of the air ele, it's ALL GOOD! :3
now the only way non-casters can contribute is throwing wounding weapons at them eles
why the hell is everything geared towards wounding weapons?!

[Lithic]

I love it. I have considerably more fun blasting them on my caster and blade barrier/symbol of fearing them on my cleric. Its still not very challenging, but its a lot more interesting than before.

Of course it's a fun raid for casters. Clerics too if they don't need to healbot. The problem is there are 7 non-caster, non-cleric classes in DDO. For these 7 classes (well maybe 6 if you discount bard), this raid is LESS interesting than it use to be.

[Korvek]

For these 7 classes (well maybe 6 if you discount bard), this raid is LESS interesting than it use to be.

And I had previously thought such a thing nigh impossible too.

[Solmage]

I use a combination of max empowered scorching rays and sup glaciation viii polar rays + fireballs + cones of cold, and the odd firewall (I don't place it where the reaver charges in after each fly up to avoid stealing the tank's aggro)

I also throw in double enervates and finger them. I find that with 4 slightly overlapping dancing balls, it stops the elementals long enough to either finger or blast. (If you fail the finger, which sometimes happens, use the cooldown to throw in another enervate and finger again)

It's very important, specially if you're the only caster, to keep yourself on a charge at all times, and to get a charge just before the last ball lights up. Then use up your mana as quickly as you get it! Blast as if it having mana were yucky!

If you're on a melee, break out those w/p's and get a charge. With a charge, you'll be immune to the knockdown and will be able to contribute a lot more. If you're a ranger, break out the w/p bow and many shot the ellies with improved precise shot.

Now, is the raid more fun? I think so. But that's just because before it was BORING AS HECK, and I personally felt rather annoyed at people going afk for breakfast or whatever during the 'raid' instead of just taking out a wounding bow and TRYING to contribute.

So it being 'more fun' than before does NOT mean that it's actually fun. In fact, it's a drag, and the very low raid loot and tome drop rate, which was appropriate for the snooze fest it used to be, adds to the detriment on wanting to run this.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Actually, I kinda like the changes.......but....

Air Ellies in general need an ajustment IMO. That "if I even slightly touch it I get thrown across the room thing" is not right IMO.

There should be some way for a melee guy to effectively fight those things.
Maybe not by meleeing, but there should be some way.

Which if they would just fix ranged combat for non-ranged speced chars, it would go along way.

Also achange to the argo system for air ellies would be more fare IMO.

I've always hated any creature with that change target evey round agro mechanic.

Damge and Intimidate should keep agro. That would make certain melees effective there.

IMO though, the reaver got a whole lot more fun after the change.

Sometimes frustrating, but with enough casters it isn't that bad IMO.

Add anyone with UMD using enervate scrolls and it will help out alot.

Paralysing ranges weps do work......but barely.

If you adjust your tactics most chars can contribute something.

[sephiroth1084]

My opinion about the raid before and after the change:

Before the change, yeah, it was much too easy. Anyone who asked, "What difficulty?" was playfully laughed at, and told that there was only one difficulty for the Reaver: elite. In runs that I led, I began letting anyone who wanted to tank the reaver, because even a squishy wizard could do so, or, if he failed, he merely died, and someone else would do so.

On my wizard, I'd drop some dancing balls, hit the reaver with every debuff I could muster, and lazily fired off FoDs and PKs. In the puzzle room, I'd drop a couple of dancing balls, then set to work on the puzzle and would largely ignore everything going on behind me. The quest was a lazy sort of fun, a familiar sort, but it was a cakewalk.

On my tank, I would usually tank the reaver, who really couldn't hurt me much at all, and I would usually require almost no healing if I could get over to the right spot to drop down from the ceiling each time. During the times that I was not the main tank, I would usually just sit back and watch, or joke around, though on occasion I would grab the aggro of a bunch of ai elementals if some of them had punched through our defenses so that the casters could take care of them. In the puzzle room, I'd go after the fire and earth eles. I generally had less to do that on my wizard, but it was a little more active.

I think that I had failed the raid twice, ever. Once because someone claimed to know the puzzle and didn't really (they were using a solver), and put in 10 incorrect solutions, and another time because a few members of the group killed the reaver before someone got to the lever.


Now, after the change, I haven failed it more times than I've completed it. Before the changes there was a preference for casters and clerics, but we could get by with only one of each, or just 2 of one and fill in the rest of the group with whatever. Now, characters die so easily in there that groups I've been on really want 3+ casters and at minimum 2 clerics (like every other freakin' raid). But, let's see how the changes affected me two flagged characters...

On my wizard, I have failed one run because the air elementals dropped before anyone was able to get a charge, and no one was able to from that point on. I dropped acid fog, solid fog, web, dancing ball, wall of fire and symbols of pain, fear and stunning, all maximized, empowered and heightened. And the elementals were still tossing people about. People have been dying more due to the spiked hole in the ceiling because the elementals toss people out into the middle of the room. In the puzzle room, I have failed several times, because either A) we were unable to all get a charge before the reaver was brought down and the casters and clerics ran out of SP before the puzzle was done, or B) no amount of CC was able to prevent the elementals from getting to the puzzle solver and lever puller(s) and knock them all over the place.

My tank has an even harder time of it. I can run around trying to kill elementals, but even with the immunity to knockdown charge, melee characters still get tossed about, making it almost impossible to contribute meaningfully anyway. There were a couple of times where I grabbed all the eles' aggro to try and buy some breathing room for the casters, but both times I got flung all around the room and sucked up into the ceiling. Now, in the puzzle room, I am just about as useless as I had been in the main room when not tanking, except that now there is great risk of my dying and of the party's failure, and there is little to nothing that I can do about it.

The raid has become more hectic and far more difficult, yes, which could be a good thing, if it also had not become one of the most frustratingly annoying quests I (and most of the people I play with) have ever run. AIR ELEMENTALS ARE NOT FUN! I have no clue what all these people who are saying that the quest is still easy are talking about. I've had an easier time doing VoD and the Hound on hard, than I have with the reaver recently. Honestly, throwing in a ton of air elementals would have made the quest more difficult without ALSO making them immune to most forms of crowd control and death effects. Conversely, Turbine could have given them the super-charged saves, but not raised the number. They also could have added the other 2 elemental types to the main room, and beefed up all the elementals a little bit.

Previously, I could get 2 reaver runs, back to back, filled and completed in about the same amount of time that it now takes me to put up and fill one LFM. And we have gotten almost no named loot from the chest since the change, making it all the harder to bear.

[Uska]

Of course it's a fun raid for casters. Clerics too if they don't need to healbot. The problem is there are 7 non-caster, non-cleric classes in DDO. For these 7 classes (well maybe 6 if you discount bard), this raid is LESS interesting than it use to be.

How can it be less interesting when 90% of the group just stood there before?

[Jay203]

How can it be less interesting when 90% of the group just stood there before?

because now you can't even just stand there anymore
the ele's overruns everything and after 4th orb is up, there's a chance you get tossed into the middle and UP UP UP you go (into the spikes >_>)

so what used to be just standing around being safe is now running for your life =_=;;;

[Korvek]

How can it be less interesting when 90% of the group just stood there before?

Didn't they /dance2 there? Far more interesting than just standing.

[Lithic]

How can it be less interesting when 90% of the group just stood there before?

Because melees USE to be able to at least swing at the fire and earth elementals in the puzzle room. The earth had especially high fort saves, so were usually best taken down by firewall + melees anyway. Now they don't even get that chance.