Good Capstone/ Bad Capstone

[Djeserit]

First, multiclassing is the soul of DDO. It's what makes DDO different and better than any game out there. If you don't agree, this post is not for you. Feel free to flame me in here: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=167558
Please don't hijack this thread with a discusision of the virtues of pure class.

***** In general capstones are a good idea. ******


There should be a small trade-off for multi-classing. The capstones should be good, but not gimp all the multiclassed toons.

Therefore, in general: Capstones should enhance abilites a class already has, not create totally new abilities. Novel abilites run too much risk of pwning multi-classed toons. They will either be too powerful, or have to be nerfed in execution.

Examples:

Good capstone -
Master of Magic
Prereqs: Level 20 Wizard
Cost: 2 AP
Benefit: Grants +2 Intelligence and all metamagics you possess cost 1 fewer spell point to use. (Heighten Spell costs 1 fewer spell point per level of heightening.)

This is nice for your wizard, but won't gimp you wiz/rog.


Bad capstone -
Divine Intervention
Prereq: Level 20 Cleric, 74 Action points spent
Cost: 2 AP
Benefit: You are a strong conduit of positive energy, and can expend a turn attempt to ward your target for five minutes against mortal damage - hit point damage will not lower their hit point total below -9. If the target is knocked unconscious, this effect will heal the target after a few seconds and then fade.

Uh-oh, depending how this is implemented, and what end content is like, this will either dominate or have to be gimped (like deathpact).


...15 replies atm... Every single one off-topic. Most overreading or misattributing to the OP. Sorry I bothered. Please actually read my post before replying, and then compare capstone ideas, or try to come to some conclusion about what in general would make a good capstone.

[Korvek]

I don't see how Divine Intervention is that powerful to be honest, nor do I see how the Wizard Capstone wll "gimp" a Wiz/Rog multiclas character.

[Impaqt]

First, multiclassing is the soul of DDO. It's what makes DDO different and better than any game out there. If you don't agree, this post is not for you. Feel free to flame me in here: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=167558Please don't hijack this thread with a discusision of the virtues of pure class.

In general capstones are a good idea. There should be a small trade-off for multi-classing. The capstones should be good, but not gimp all the multiclassed toons.

Therefore, in general: Capstones should enhance abilites a class already has, not create totally new abilities. Novel abilites run too much risk of gimping multi-classed toons. They will either be too powerful, or have to be gimped in execution.

Examples:

Good capstone -
Master of Magic
Prereqs: Level 20 Wizard
Cost: 2 AP
Benefit: Grants +2 Intelligence and all metamagics you possess cost 1 fewer spell point to use. (Heighten Spell costs 1 fewer spell point per level of heightening.)

This is nice for your wizard, but gimp you wiz/rog.
and the fact that your "Gimped" Wizard has Evasion and can disable any trap inthe game breaks that character how? Because his DC is ONE lower??? Because he has 25 fewer Spell Points???? OVER REACTING!!!! FTW!!!


Bad capstone -
Divine Intervention
Prereq: Level 20 Cleric, 74 Action points spent
Cost: 2 AP
Benefit: You are a strong conduit of positive energy, and can expend a turn attempt to ward your target for five minutes against mortal damage - hit point damage will not lower their hit point total below -9. If the target is knocked unconscious, this effect will heal the target after a few seconds and then fade.

Uh-oh, depending how this is implemented, and what end content is like, this will either dominate or have to be gimped (like deathpact).

Or you could, Ya know.. Keep People alive instead of relyng on a Temporary effect to Stay that off for a few seconds


...

nothing in those 2 capstones makes me regreat any of my Multiclassing. But my Pure Wizard and my Pure clerics might take the enhancment if I have extra action points.

[Lithic]

I don't see how Divine Intervention is that powerful to be honest, nor do I see how the Wizard Capstone wll "gimp" a Wiz/Rog multiclas character.

He's saying the wiz one is good because it WONT gimp wiz multiclassers that can't take it.

As for the cleric one we will see what it does when we get it, but to most people it seems extremely weak as all it does is spare you from death once, then fade. If the healing you get back is minor (say 10% of max hp), it wont even do that as the next attack will kill you anyway.

[Quanefel]

"Novel abilites run too much risk of pwning multi-classed toons." So, what if they did?

[Beherit_Baphomar]

First, multiclassing is the soul of DDO. It's what makes DDO different and better than any game out there. If you don't agree, this post is not for you. Feel free to flame me in here: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=167558
Please don't hijack this thread with a discusision of the virtues of pure class.

So this thread is a blog, your blog, on what you think of capstone enhancements and we're not allowed to discuss it???

Doesnt make much sense...might'n have been better PM'ing yourself with the OP.

[Korvek]

He's saying the wiz one is good because it WONT gimp wiz multiclassers that can't take it.

Ah, I didn't see the word "won't" in there, I guess it was implied. My mistake.

[Impaqt]

Ah, I didn't see the word "won't" in there, I guess it was implied. My mistake.

Thats cause its not there.... I figured he just missed the "S" rather than missing an entire word....

This is nice for your wizard, but gimps you wiz/rog.

[underlordone]

With out going off topic on what he's saying is he would like the abilty to get a multi class line. I think for every 2 to 3 lvls of anther class should offer you something at 20 cap. I have a 9/7 split right now. The wiz side has a ok dc of 26 on spells 30 int. On his ranger side 30 dex makes him nice with the dot spells with the ablity to fight.

Maybe at enhancement that would up maybe a school or ablity higher to match that of a pure class or something that would more defined u as the split or multiclass.

Food for thought you lose lets say 1 dc for taken 2 lvls of rouge. May be at lvl 20 a line could open up to lets say get back 1 dc for eather all schools or maybe just 1. On the rouge side may be open up lvl 3 or 4's rouge enhancement's.

I do think that is what you are asking for and I have asked for it to. Would be nice but unless we get more asking for it I dont think we have a shot of getting anything but what we gained skill wise as a playing useing these builds. As for the pure class cap stones in my opion I realy don't see them being worth wile but the wiz one dose look nice.

[Memnir]

The abilities gained by multiclassing have by in far been greater than any of the capstones - and the capstones in no way harm any multiclassed build. If it means that much to anyone to have the capstone - then reroll! But, I imagine that you will find yourself missing the benefits your character had with the multiclass far more than you will enjoy that eventual carrot at level 20.

Capstones are a reward (and fairly light ones at that) for becoming a paragon of what your chosen class represents. Will capstones make multiclassing obsolete? Puh-leeze.


I'm sorry, but I see this as just whining that you won't get to play with a new toy that some of the other kids are getting.

[Rog]

it has been siad the level cap will go pat 20 somtime in a furture far far away so your multi class might have to wait a bit to hit 20 in one class.

[Turial]

it has been siad the level cap will go pat 20 somtime in a furture far far away so your multi class might have to wait a bit to hit 20 in one class.

Yeah I would worry more about missing epic level advancements within a pure class more then a capstone at level 20.

[Deuce]

The abilities gained by multiclassing have by in far been greater than any of the capstones - and the capstones in no way harm any multiclassed build. If it means that much to anyone to have the capstone - then reroll! But, I imagine that you will find yourself missing the benefits your character had with the multiclass far more than you will enjoy that eventual carrot at level 20.

Capstones are a reward (and fairly light ones at that) for becoming a paragon of what your chosen class represents. Will capstones make multiclassing obsolete? Puh-leeze.


I'm sorry, but I see this as just whining that you won't get to play with a new toy that some of the other kids are getting.

Yeah, gonna have to agree with you on this...

[narizue]

The abilities gained by multiclassing have by in far been greater than any of the capstones - and the capstones in no way harm any multiclassed build. If it means that much to anyone to have the capstone - then reroll! But, I imagine that you will find yourself missing the benefits your character had with the multiclass far more than you will enjoy that eventual carrot at level 20.

Capstones are a reward (and fairly light ones at that) for becoming a paragon of what your chosen class represents. Will capstones make multiclassing obsolete? Puh-leeze.


I'm sorry, but I see this as just whining that you won't get to play with a new toy that some of the other kids are getting.

Me too.

How are the "capstone enhancements" any different then any of the other class enhancements in the game? Honestly? When I built my ranger, and took 2 levels of fighter I knew that I could not get enhancements above level 2 for the fighter class. Did this mean that I would not be eligible for more powerful fighter enhancements? Yes. I chose to not have the most powerful enhancements available in a given class by not taking all of the possible levels I could of said class.

When you multiclass its all about tradeoffs. With a caster every level you take outside of your core casting class leads to a decrease in your casting capacity. With a melee class, every level you take as a non melee lowers your BAB.

I don't understand how folks can be suprised that more levels in a class give you more benefits. Even if the capstones were gamebreaking, honestly a level 20 enhancement SHOULD be better then any of the lower level enhancements. If it is not, then its not truly balanced.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

First, multiclassing is the soul of DDO. It's what makes DDO different and better than any game out there. If you don't agree, this post is not for you. Feel free to flame me in here: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=167558
Please don't hijack this thread with a discusision of the virtues of pure class.
...

Sorry, it doesn't work like that. You comment, we can reply as we feel fit. And it isn't hyjacking to discuss the merits of pure class since it is on topic. Because you like multiclass better, you think there shouldn't be any significant advantages to pure classes, but the reality is that is the point, there should be a serious advantage to going pure to offset the serious advantages of multi. The two items you listed above are both great capstones. In fact the Wizard one is the better of the two as it is simple and thematically appropriate. That is the direction they should go on all capstones and they should make you regret a "splash level" in something.

[Impaqt]

Ya know, Now that I think about it, the OP is right on.. take out all Class based prereqs for Enhancments! My Barbarian should be able to take Crit rage! The fact that I splashed 13 levels of ROgue into her (And a level of ranger) should have no bearing on what enhancments I should be denied!!

[Fetchi]

Sorry, it doesn't work like that. You comment, we can reply as we feel fit. And it isn't hyjacking to discuss the merits of pure class since it is on topic. Because you like multiclass better, you think there shouldn't be any significant advantages to pure classes, but the reality is that is the point, there should be a serious advantage to going pure to offset the serious advantages of multi. The two items you listed above are both great capstones. In fact the Wizard one is the better of the two as it is simple and thematically appropriate. That is the direction they should go on all capstones and they should make you regret a "splash level" in something.

I wholeheartedly agree with this comment. Except for the capstone comment. You can take your +2 to INT and more spell points and that weak metamagic boost and throw it out the window. It is not even close to being on par with 2 rogue levels - which would give my wiz the ability to disable almost all traps and have evasion.

This is just one example. But these capstone suck in my opinion and are really just insulting for anyone that stays pure.

In my opinion, pure classes should be far superior than any multiclass. This simply is not the case in DDO. In almost every case, multiclassing is more beneficial. The scale is completely unbalanced when it comes to pure vs. multi.

Multiclass FTW everytime. It shouldn't be that way.

[esoitl]

...15 replies atm... Every single one off-topic. Most overreading or misattributing to the OP. Sorry I bothered. Please actually read my post before replying, and then compare capstone ideas, or try to come to some conclusion about what in general would make a good capstone.

HAHA
I read this and then stopped after the second... funny.

Anyways, capstones are a nice way of giving a 'mastery' if you will to a pure class. So far most don't look amazing, nor overpowered, nor do they really 'add' any new abilities. I don't think it will out shine any multiclass (so far I can say they won't) but some will make players think whether a splash is actually worth it. I'm not too thrilled about the Cleric one but some of those 15/1 Cleric/Sorcerors might be kicking themselves depending on their thoughts of the Capstone. It'll be interesting to see all of them when released and how they will interact for the pure class with some of the new PrE's coming out or getting upped to the next level.

I see your point about the Wizard/Rogue build and tend to agree. The Capstone won't kill the Wizard/Rogue builds of the world and to be honest I feel the biggest blow dealt because of the multi-classing is from losing the spell level and not the Capstone enhancement... which is a good thing.

[Bradik_Losdar]

First, multiclassing is the soul of DDO. It's what makes DDO different and better than any game out there. If you don't agree, this post is not for you. Feel free to flame me in here: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=167558
Please don't hijack this thread with a discusision of the virtues of pure class.

Didn't get past this part as it was off topic from the threads title.

(Not a great way to start a "discussion" btw.)

[Strakeln]

Doesnt make much sense...might'n have been better PM'ing yourself with the OP.

lol