Add Valiant Fury to Cleric's Spell List

[EinarMal]

"Oh and btw if they implement miracle one of it's effects is to mimic ANY spell 7th level or lower. So I should get Paladin's Zeal spell after all by rule along with many others."

As long as you don't mind spending 1000 XP which would translate to about 10,000 DDO per scale per cast

Guess again my friend.

You don’t so much cast a miracle as request one. You state what you would like to have happen and request that your deity (or the power you pray to for spells) intercede.
A miracle can do any of the following things.

• Duplicate any cleric spell of 8th level or lower (including spells to which you have access because of your domains).
• Duplicate any other spell of 7th level or lower.
• Undo the harmful effects of certain spells, such as feeblemind or insanity.
• Have any effect whose power level is in line with the above effects.

If the miracle has any of the above effects, casting it has no experience point cost.

[EinarMal]

A cleric currently has from 6 to 9 feats, so they can certainly choose to spend them on melee if they want. A cleric's feat supply is exactly the same as a barbarian or paladin's, after all. If DDO included more worthwhile combat feats, then the extra slots of a fighter might be more of a benefit; but it doesn't.

Is a THF cleric behind a TWF fighter? Of course he is, just like a THF fighter is. Within the same weapon style, currently the difference is the fighter has +1.5 damage from str, +6 from Specialization, and some unimportant crit-confirm. The cleric has +3 DF, meaning he's +4 per-hit behind the fighter. Assuming a typical 55 per hit, the cleric is 7% behind.

7% less DPS is not enough to compensate for some pretty awesome spellcasting, especially since the cleric's spells can boost his own DPS, one way or another (either by spells that damage monsters, or healing himself so he can keep fighting long after a fighter would have died or retreated)


Yes, it's true that Kensai will help give fighters a real melee advantage over clerics in terms of pure melee offense: that's a good thing. Fighters need something to compensate for all the spells they don't get (and Will saves they fail)

Also we both know comparing a level 20 Fighter build is a mismatch because fighters were never meant to be a pure class.

Now Turbine is baking in prestige classes but you still get two levels to play with.

Go 2 Rogue and you get Evasion and can UMD heal scrolls...

Go halfling dragon mark you've got plenty of feats...

There are lots of ways to improve on 20 levels of fighter to narrow the gap (although it has nothing to do with DPS).

Personally I think every build should either have UMD for heal scrolls or some form of self-healing and you are self gimping yourself if you choose not to take advantage of all the ways to get it.

[Emili]

Also we both know comparing a level 20 Fighter build is a mismatch because fighters were never meant to be a pure class.

Now Turbine is baking in prestige classes but you still get two levels to play with.

Go 2 Rogue and you get Evasion and can UMD heal scrolls...

Go halfling dragon mark you've got plenty of feats...

There are lots of ways to improve on 20 levels of fighter to narrow the gap (although it has nothing to do with DPS).

Personally I think every build should either have UMD for heal scrolls or some form of self-healing and you are self gimping yourself if you choose not to take advantage of all the ways to get it.

He's speaking spells outside of healing also. The DnD community as a whole all agree that the cleric class had been overpowered in 3.0+, I think they did that to entice people towards that class... PnP most healing is done via resting not spell - the curative spells generally are only castable via slot once a day or so... plus many domains do not focus on healing at all... You're typical PnP argument here leads to some holes... Original DnD created more trade off for multi-class, 3.0+ opened doors but skewed the core. While most campaigns trickle off at lvl 12, so most people splash on up past, OTH, I knew an PnP epic level fighter once - I had an epic level pure ranger - 5 years in the making ... the mark of epic bonus feats rely solely on class, splash and you may not have enough bonus slots to fit in that epic str which precedes devastating crit along with the rest of those epic feats you wish...