Get rid of all enhancements except PrEs and specializations

[moorewr]

Hi! Thanks for looking. I just thought I'd get in on this nerf mania we have going on.

Enhancements as they have existed since Mod 3.3 are the single biggest (or perhaps second biggest, after spell points) departure from PnP, and have made all our characters far tougher than their paper brethren, contributing to mob inflation.

So - what do you think? Are they a wrong turn.. or are they something that Wizards ought to have copied instead of doing what they did for 4th edition?

[moorewr]

I can't believe nobody has bit on this baited hook yet.

[Turial]

I can't believe nobody has bit on this baited hook yet.

Thats cause we all believe you.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

The first baiting post was funny.

The second kind of cute.

The third through 20th "me too" joke bait post just makes the OP look silly

[DelScorcho]

I can't believe nobody has bit on this baited hook yet.

There is just way too much competition in the "Turbine nerf this" industry for this thread to be noticed. You need to make your thread stand out more. Do some marketing. One thing that always helps is to call people cheaters in the title.

[moorewr]

There is just way too much competition in the "Turbine nerf this" industry for this thread to be noticed. You need to make your thread stand out more. Do some marketing. One thing that always helps is to call people cheaters in the title.

Ha ha!

I'll remember that next time.

The pity is I'm serious.. but it's more than too late to take that tack in balancing this game.

[Aerendil]

Thats cause we all believe you.

Haha, exactly

Enhancements as they have existed since Mod 3.3 are the single biggest (or perhaps second biggest, after spell points) departure from PnP, and have made all our characters far tougher than their paper brethren, contributing to mob inflation.

Enhancements are kind of a mixed bag for DDO. There are times when I think the concept of adding enhancements, and giving us *something* to look forward to inbetween levels was absolutely brilliant.
And then there are other times when I think "really? do we REALLY need to be able to boost our HPs by 40-50 via enhancements? and boost crit threat rages by 2? (recently nerfed); or give casters the ability to do an extra 30% damage on top of Maximize?", etc., etc. There are plenty others that could be listed here, of course, but we haven't all day to list them.

The other argument for or against enhancements is that they have locked certain PrEs into place for classes, whereas PnP D&D PrCs were far more open to anyone that qualified.

For what it's worth, I would argue that our characters are horribly inflated; the equipment is horribly inflated; the spells are horribly inflated; and the monsters are most certainly horribly inflated.

And when you have 20 different things that are out of whack compared to PnP, it's not easy to single out the one offender that's making everything else skewed.
It's quite a tangled web at this point, unfortunately.

WoP, for example, are quite popular right now as a nerf target. But when you research why WoP became so popular, it was in response to mob HP inflation. And that HP inflation was as a result of casters being inflated. And casters were inflated because of.... yeah, you see? The list goes on and on...

So - what do you think? Are they a wrong turn.. or are they something that Wizards ought to have copied instead of doing what they did for 4th edition?

4th edition should be burned, IMO.
'Course, as I said above, I'm not convinced enhancements are a complete wrong turn either.

One other final point I would argue is that the AI has limited the game in such a manner so as to require certain "tactics", which is partially why things have become inflated.
Turbine nerfed walls of fire, because the AI of their monsters wasn't smart enough to know when NOT to run through a wall of fire 29075 times.
Turbine dramatically increased the HP of mobs because the AI didn't know enough to target our spellcasters ASAP with a Silence spell, or Heightened Soundburst, etc, etc.

Like I said, it's a tangled web

[DSC]

Enhancements are kind of a mixed bag for DDO. There are times when I think the concept of adding enhancements, and giving us *something* to look forward to inbetween levels was absolutely brilliant.
And then there are other times when I think "really? do we REALLY need to be able to boost our HPs by 40-50 via enhancements? and boost crit threat rages by 2? (recently nerfed); or give casters the ability to do an extra 30% damage on top of Maximize?", etc., etc. There are plenty others that could be listed here, of course, but we haven't all day to list them.

The other argument for or against enhancements is that they have locked certain PrEs into place for classes, whereas PnP D&D PrCs were far more open to anyone that qualified.

For what it's worth, I would argue that our characters are horribly inflated; the equipment is horribly inflated; the spells are horribly inflated; and the monsters are most certainly horribly inflated.

And when you have 20 different things that are out of whack compared to PnP, it's not easy to single out the one offender that's making everything else skewed.
It's quite a tangled web at this point, unfortunately.

WoP, for example, are quite popular right now as a nerf target. But when you research why WoP became so popular, it was in response to mob HP inflation. And that HP inflation was as a result of casters being inflated. And casters were inflated because of.... yeah, you see? The list goes on and on...

QFT. I understand the notion behind adding enhancements, and I don't think the PnP rules are sacrosanct... but by adding so many powerful enhancements they've completely changed the balance of the rules, such that nothing works the way it did in PnP. At that point it's hard to see why things like weapon stats or BAB even bother trying to imitate the original rules.

Indeed, one of the best fixes they could make to balance things in DDO would be to drop the D20 for attacks and saves, and replace it with a D50 or some such - the power scale has simply gotten too high for a D20 to suffice.


In theory, completely reworking enhancements and toning them down would probably be the best balance change Turbine could make... but that's water under the bridge at this point.

(Yay, serious discussion in a trolling thread. )

[unionyes]

Instead of making my own halfassed nerf thread, just throwing this out here. Not for discussion, mind you, but just so I can say I was the first....

Turbine, why don't we go way way back to the original red box set, where variable weapon damage was an option, and the Basic Rules allowed for 1d8 weapon damage, regardless of what you used, dagger or great axe. Would get rid of all that barbarian love and make wizzies a more viable melee option.

Ah, the good old days, where Dwarf was a class AND a race

[moorewr]

(Yay, serious discussion in a trolling thread. )

Hey, this was a serious trolling thread, after all!

Great replies by Aerendil and DSC.

And unioneyes.. if someone put a basic or 1st edition AD&D game out there you know I'd play it.

[Aesop]

Hi! Thanks for looking. I just thought I'd get in on this nerf mania we have going on.

Enhancements as they have existed since Mod 3.3 are the single biggest (or perhaps second biggest, after spell points) departure from PnP, and have made all our characters far tougher than their paper brethren, contributing to mob inflation.

So - what do you think? Are they a wrong turn.. or are they something that Wizards ought to have copied instead of doing what they did for 4th edition?

(I'll answer ssemi seriously)

I disagree to a point.

I think the structure of the Enhancement system is too confining and too based on Class Levels. Enhancements should be based around enhancing an aspect of a character not an aspect of a class.

in other words make enhancements and PrEs based around Skill Ranks, Feats, Races, Class Features, and perhaps Character Level. Currently things are tied strictly to Class Levels and race with a few additional required Feat.


at rank 1, 5 and every 5 ranks of a skill thereafter another Skill Enhancement level is available

If I take Power Attack I can take additional Power Attack Enhancements at BAB 6 11 and 16

If I'm a Fighter who wants to Specialize in Finesse Fighting and I want Dex Enhanacements... I can take Dex enhancements.

Everytime I gain a Smite Evil Attempt from a Class I gain the ability to take an Enhancement to gain an additional one.

If I'm a Paladin that Has taken Dodge Mobility Spring Attack Two Weapon Fighting and Improved Two Weapon Fighting then I can take the Tempest PrE.


This would allow for more varied builds and more interesting characters.

Aesop

[moorewr]

I think the structure of the Enhancement system is too confining and too based on Class Levels. Enhancements should be based around enhancing an aspect of a character not an aspect of a class.

in other words make enhancements and PrEs based around Skill Ranks, Feats, Races, Class Features, and perhaps Character Level. Currently things are tied strictly to Class Levels and race with a few additional required Feat.
[...]
If I'm a Paladin that Has taken Dodge Mobility Spring Attack Two Weapon Fighting and Improved Two Weapon Fighting then I can take the Tempest PrE.


This would allow for more varied builds and more interesting characters.

Aesop

You know, looking at this I completely agree - the PrC in the DMG require caster levels and BAB, or specific skills, NOT specific classes.

[Aesop]

You know, looking at this I completely agree - the PrC in the DMG require caster levels and BAB, or specific skills, NOT specific classes.

Bingo the current Enhancement system Pigeonholes Classes and restricts build options more than anything else.

aside:
There Should be Two Stat Increase Enhancements based on Character Level players choice and two more based on Race (as it stand now). I suppose you could do 3 for Character Level


Aesop

[Ringos]

(I'll answer ssemi seriously)

I disagree to a point.

I think the structure of the Enhancement system is too confining and too based on Class Levels. Enhancements should be based around enhancing an aspect of a character not an aspect of a class.

in other words make enhancements and PrEs based around Skill Ranks, Feats, Races, Class Features, and perhaps Character Level. Currently things are tied strictly to Class Levels and race with a few additional required Feat.


at rank 1, 5 and every 5 ranks of a skill thereafter another Skill Enhancement level is available

If I take Power Attack I can take additional Power Attack Enhancements at BAB 6 11 and 16

If I'm a Fighter who wants to Specialize in Finesse Fighting and I want Dex Enhanacements... I can take Dex enhancements.

Everytime I gain a Smite Evil Attempt from a Class I gain the ability to take an Enhancement to gain an additional one.

If I'm a Paladin that Has taken Dodge Mobility Spring Attack Two Weapon Fighting and Improved Two Weapon Fighting then I can take the Tempest PrE.


This would allow for more varied builds and more interesting characters.

Aesop

Aesop, you always have some of the best posts on the forums. Kinda like A_D but written at a level even I can understand...and none of the insults.

[Aerendil]

*cough*
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=166271

(I'll answer ssemi seriously)

I disagree to a point.

I think the structure of the Enhancement system is too confining and too based on Class Levels. Enhancements should be based around enhancing an aspect of a character not an aspect of a class.

in other words make enhancements and PrEs based around Skill Ranks, Feats, Races, Class Features, and perhaps Character Level. Currently things are tied strictly to Class Levels and race with a few additional required Feat.


at rank 1, 5 and every 5 ranks of a skill thereafter another Skill Enhancement level is available

If I take Power Attack I can take additional Power Attack Enhancements at BAB 6 11 and 16

If I'm a Fighter who wants to Specialize in Finesse Fighting and I want Dex Enhanacements... I can take Dex enhancements.

Everytime I gain a Smite Evil Attempt from a Class I gain the ability to take an Enhancement to gain an additional one.

If I'm a Paladin that Has taken Dodge Mobility Spring Attack Two Weapon Fighting and Improved Two Weapon Fighting then I can take the Tempest PrE.


This would allow for more varied builds and more interesting characters.

Aesop

[Uska]

I would say yes to this if they nerfed the mobs to go along with it although I use them they never sat right with me.

[Uska]

Bingo the current Enhancement system Pigeonholes Classes and restricts build options more than anything else.

aside:
There Should be Two Stat Increase Enhancements based on Character Level players choice and two more based on Race (as it stand now). I suppose you could do 3 for Character Level


Aesop

They need to drop the stat based enhancements.

[Aesop]

*cough*
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=166271

Its an old idea one that I brought up during the last Enhancement Revamp and again several months after the current system went live.

Last time Dane yelled at me a lot saying that I was trying to break the game, and MT was unsure if it was plausible to balance correctly.

I still think its a better way to go and that the balance can be found and created.


Aesop

[Aesop]

They need to drop the stat based enhancements.

That was a thought too but a lot of people would be very upset by that. How about a compromise (because I'm always looking to find a middle ground for people)

only 1 Racial and 2 Character so at best you'd have a +3 to one stat or a +1 to a couple?


Aesop

[Aerendil]

That was a thought too but a lot of people would be very upset by that. How about a compromise (because I'm always looking to find a middle ground for people)

only 1 Racial and 2 Character so at best you'd have a +3 to one stat or a +1 to a couple?


Aesop

Even better, just create "stat caps".
I'd say a cap of, say, 30 is more than sufficient (and still considered HIGHLY monty haul compared to PnP).

This will keep things static enough that the devs can pre-adjust all incoming content to a certain level without having to worry about mudflation and further adjustments in the future.

Heck, you can even create "soft caps" and "hard caps", with stat caps being base stat + enhancements + equipment, and hard caps being that raid buffs will allow us to breach it.

So what does that mean?
Well, simply put, it allows us to more evenly distribute our gear/equipment and allows us to reach a certain plateau at endgame.
The +stat gear will still be highly valued, of course. But it will mean that the 20 starting CHA Drow Sorceror with +4 CHA in level ups, and a further +2 from enhancements, will only need a +4 CHA item to reach the cap (greensteel item would do it, for example). This would possibly free up a slot for that character, giving them a small advantage over, say, a halfling Sorceror who might need a +6 item to reach cap.

A stat cap will also allow the devs to easily calculate max ACs (i.e. 30 DEX + 30 WIS = +20 to AC for monks. Which is the rough equivalent of an AC bonus for a S&B tank using +5 fullplate and a tower shield), max BABs (30 STR = max BAB of +26 before buffs), and so on.

This would also alleviate the need to have +13095710597 HP enemies. And by lowering their HPs down to "normal" (which is a relative term in DDO) levels, you also thereby nerf stat-damagers in a way, since regular damage is just as effective as a means of killing enemies.

Hand in hand with these fixes, however, should be an enemy AI adjustment.
Ensuring intelligent monsters do NOT blindly follow a Wizard/Monk through firewalls until they die (despite failing to notice the Wizard is not taking any damage) is pure silliness.
Have enemy intelligent monsters rally troops, or stay back and crowd-control *US*, or heal their allies, just as we would, and you suddenly have a good challenge back ingame.

Just my morning 2cp.