How would you answer the following question?

[Makdar]

As a pure-classed level 16 fighter, the capstone enhancement, available at level 20 fighter, would have to be either evasion or some scaled-downed version of evasion in order for me not to splash evasion in my final 4 levels from the rogue or monk class.

Your answer would be?

1) Agreed
2) Don't Agree
3) I know enough that I don't know what the answer for this should be
4) Hello. My name is Cletus. (Life is like a box of chocholates.)
5) Other
6) I would have chosen number 5 but I feel I have a different answer.
7) Da Cow En Ing Booot (Translation: I don't speak english, but hello my name is Cletus.)

[EinarMal]

What is your reflex save? How high a save will you need at level 20 content to have it work at least the majority of the time. How many AOE attacks will we face in the high level content they add.

Evasion is nice if you face a lot of AOE spells and you have the reflex save to back it up.

This mod it comes in very handy, maybe the next mod who knows.

Level 20 fighters are pretty gimp though in most cases no one would actually do this in PnP. Maybe Turbine will try to change that with the capstone, but really how many feats do you need? Fighters were never meant to be a pure class in D&D, sorry if that offends someone but I didn't make up the rules. Almost everyone picks up a prestige class or some other class.

[Desteria]

What is your reflex save? How high a save will you need at level 20 content to have it work at least the majority of the time. How many AOE attacks will we face in the high level content they add.

Evasion is nice if you face a lot of AOE spells and you have the reflex save to back it up.

This mod it comes in very handy, maybe the next mod who knows.

Level 20 fighters are pretty gimp though in most cases no one would actually do this in PnP. Maybe Turbine will try to change that with the capstone, but really how many feats do you need? Fighters were never meant to be a pure class in D&D, sorry if that offends someone but I didn't make up the rules. Almost everyone picks up a prestige class or some other class.

aye in 3.5 DnD i cant think of a single pure calss Fighter i EVER saw adn i traved to a lot of LG cons and the like and met 100's probly well over a 1000 difrent PnP 3.5 characters
Yes i'm a huge gamer geek....

[Noctus]

Evasion is not a no-brainer on melee characters.

It costs you AC, because you need to switch to light armor while most fighters are STR based.
It only kicks in if you actually suceed on your save. Most fighters have a low to moderate Ref-Save, so the gain is much lower than on a high DEX + high base-Ref-save character.


independent of the previous:
If you think about splashing 2 Rogue (More than 2 levels cost you Kensai´s improved Crit-Range. ) to your Level 16 fighter you will only get a much smaller gain as if you did it while leveling up. For example you missed out in maxing UMD and have fewer skillpoints than would be possible with the same level-split, just taken in a smarter order.

[Strakeln]

I have to agree with Noctus.

The best (in my opinion, only) way to multiclass is to plan it from the beginning. Trying to do so on existing builds typically results in multiclass gimps.

[oogly54]

Kind of a silly question really. If capstone doesn't have evasion I will multiclass? The possibilities the capstone could have are endless and many options could be much more powerful than evasion.

If the capstone gave all fighters +60 to STR and CON. Would ANYONE multiclass to get evasion with that?

If the capstone gave all fighters a +1 to diplomacy, would you multiclass then?

The question is not really a question, it is more of a , "I really want to have evasion on my pure fighter and hope turbine gives that to me, do you guys hope for the same thing?"

FYI, My main is a level 16 fighter.

[Makdar]

Kind of a silly question really. If capstone doesn't have evasion I will multiclass? The possibilities the capstone could have are endless and many options could be much more powerful than evasion.

If the capstone gave all fighters +60 to STR and CON. Would ANYONE multiclass to get evasion with that?

If the capstone gave all fighters a +1 to diplomacy, would you multiclass then?

The question is not really a question, it is more of a , "I really want to have evasion on my pure fighter and hope turbine gives that to me, do you guys hope for the same thing?"

FYI, My main is a level 16 fighter.

Kind of a silly response really. (We could probably make this kind of a response post to every post made on these boards. A wise person would say, "There are no stupid questions, just stupid answers.")

[Makdar]

I have to agree with Noctus.

The best (in my opinion, only) way to multiclass is to plan it from the beginning. Trying to do so on existing builds typically results in multiclass gimps.

The only gimp char is a char played by a gimped person. An uber person can play any char quite well.

With a decent starting dex, splashed rogue lvls, and the right equipment. The reflex save can be quite respectable. Maybe not elite, high-end content respectable, but respectable none the less.

I don't mind splashing, but thought I'd put this out there as food for thought. Choose to throw up if you wish.

[oogly54]

Kind of a silly response really. (We could probably make this kind of a response post to every post made on these boards. A wise person would say, "There are no stupid questions, just stupid answers.")

There are plenty of silly questions, every teacher you had that told you there aren't any was just trying to increase your self confidence. Saying I am unwise because I point out the flaws in a question and why the question doesn't makes sense does not make my point any less relevant.

[Korvek]

The only gimp char is a char played by a gimped person. An uber person can play any char quite well.

I wouldn't make statements like that quite so open-ended. There are characters that are so weak that regardless of what the player does the character performs poorly.

As for my own response, despite my not having a pure fighter at the moment, I believe that there are multiple things the Capstone could be that would make remaining pure worth it, so 2.

[Zenako]

The points being made about needing enough REF save to make evasion worthwhile are spot on. Unless you are hitting 30+ on REF, then it will not be reliable in the end game content. (and most toons hitting those REF levels tend to have smaller HP pools backing them up.)

A "pure" FTR has a BASE REF of 5 at level 16. Lets add in 5 for Resistence (very possible for anyone considering this approach), and 5 more for DEX (Tome and +6 item and a base of 12 for example).

This brings them all the way up to 15, add in GH and you now have a 19. Perhaps something else to hit 20. Sorry but all the evasion in the world is not gonna help a lot when you probably still fail half the time. Just watch the carnage in Kobold to see how that works without a GOOD REF save.

A Pure Dex based Ranger for example would have base 10, 10+ from Dex, 5 Resistence, 4 GH, and you are looking at 30+ already.

You pretty much need to get to the point where you are down to 1's failing to have it really work out as well as you see the "Evasion" toons making it work, and that requires a FTR build that gives up other things.

[Makdar]

There are plenty of silly questions, every teacher you had that told you there aren't any was just trying to increase your self confidence. Saying I am unwise because I point out the flaws in a question and why the question doesn't makes sense does not make my point any less relevant.

Should we all stop asking questions because someone might reply that it is stupid? And just who gets final say as to whether a particular question is stupid? Hmm. By the way, I didn't call you unwise.

[Makdar]

The points being made about needing enough REF save to make evasion worthwhile are spot on. Unless you are hitting 30+ on REF, then it will not be reliable in the end game content. (and most toons hitting those REF levels tend to have smaller HP pools backing them up.)

A "pure" FTR has a BASE REF of 5 at level 16. Lets add in 5 for Resistence (very possible for anyone considering this approach), and 5 more for DEX (Tome and +6 item and a base of 12 for example).

This brings them all the way up to 15, add in GH and you now have a 19. Perhaps something else to hit 20. Sorry but all the evasion in the world is not gonna help a lot when you probably still fail half the time. Just watch the carnage in Kobold to see how that works without a GOOD REF save.

A Pure Dex based Ranger for example would have base 10, 10+ from Dex, 5 Resistence, 4 GH, and you are looking at 30+ already.

You pretty much need to get to the point where you are down to 1's failing to have it really work out as well as you see the "Evasion" toons making it work, and that requires a FTR build that gives up other things.

Let's add a few more things. Starting dex of 14. How about luck bonuses. How about the reflex save bonuses that a rogue or monk gets by taking rogue and/or monk lvls. How about feat bonuses to reflex saves. How about recitation from a cleric who can give you 3+ mins of it.

I didn't say it would get good enough for elite, high-end content. Just good enough to be extremely worthwhile.

[Geonis]

5 - Other

Noone in DnD goes pure Fighter to 20. In DDO, there is even less reason to stay pure Fighter, as there are less useful feats. Fighter is a splash class. I know you do not want to hear this, but it is true.

If I had a pure 16 Fighter, I would reroll rather than hope for the capstone to be good enough to stay pure.

[Makdar]

5 - Other

Noone in DnD goes pure Fighter to 20. In DDO, there is even less reason to stay pure Fighter, as there are less useful feats. Fighter is a splash class. I know you do not want to hear this, but it is true.

If I had a pure 16 Fighter, I would reroll rather than hope for the capstone to be good enough to stay pure.

I agree with your response in essence. (Cept for the reroll part) Kind of why I posted the thread to begin with. In seeing what Turbine has proposed for the wizard class, while a great capstone for wizards, if fighters were to get something similar in nature, like +2 strength and maybe +1 or +2 to all skills, that wouldn't even be close to what is needed to get me to stay pure-classed on my fighter. (BTW, I have 4 different lvl 16 tank class types, only one of which is a pure-classed fighter. It's just nice to have one centered around the fighter class is all. I'll splash him the last 4 levels if there's no clear cut benefit to staying pure-classed.)

[Deez1121]

I have been considering to same question myself. I have a 16 FTR with TWF. AC is a useless number for me as I wear armor. My thought was to go 2 lvls of Monk and take toughness for both of those feats.(hp never hurts) This will net me a +3 to all saves, evasion and 46 hps. At 20 my reflex save will look like this: 7 18 ftr lvls+ 3 monk lvls +5 Restance +5 Dwarf spell defense +4 GH +2 Luck +8 26 dex= 34. Even if I only make a reflex save 25% of the time I still get way more benefit than I would from 2 fighter levels. All this of course depends on the capstone. I personally dont think it is going to be good enough but hey its fun to speculate.

[Uska]

should never be evasion period

[Makdar]

I have been considering to same question myself. I have a 16 FTR with TWF. AC is a useless number for me as I wear armor. My thought was to go 2 lvls of Monk and take toughness for both of those feats.(hp never hurts) This will net me a +3 to all saves, evasion and 46 hps. At 20 my reflex save will look like this: 7 18 ftr lvls+ 3 monk lvls +5 Restance +5 Dwarf spell defense +4 GH +2 Luck +8 26 dex= 34. Even if I only make a reflex save 25% of the time I still get way more benefit than I would from 2 fighter levels. All this of course depends on the capstone. I personally dont think it is going to be good enough but hey its fun to speculate.

Don't know if you included this, but monk's can take Lightning Reflexes as one of their lvl 1 or lvl 2 feats. That's +2 more to the reflex save. You probably have a no brainer decision to splash. That's why I posted this thread. To me, it's fighter capstone = evasion/(some form of evasion) or splash.

[Kaldaka]

.... +5 Dwarf spell defense ....

Hmm ... Does this stack for reflex save purposes? ... if so I have a lot of thinking to do about future possibilities ...

[stoc]

The points being made about needing enough REF save to make evasion worthwhile are spot on. Unless you are hitting 30+ on REF, then it will not be reliable in the end game content. (and most toons hitting those REF levels tend to have smaller HP pools backing them up.)

A "pure" FTR has a BASE REF of 5 at level 16. Lets add in 5 for Resistence (very possible for anyone considering this approach), and 5 more for DEX (Tome and +6 item and a base of 12 for example).

This brings them all the way up to 15, add in GH and you now have a 19. Perhaps something else to hit 20. Sorry but all the evasion in the world is not gonna help a lot when you probably still fail half the time. Just watch the carnage in Kobold to see how that works without a GOOD REF save.

A Pure Dex based Ranger for example would have base 10, 10+ from Dex, 5 Resistence, 4 GH, and you are looking at 30+ already.

You pretty much need to get to the point where you are down to 1's failing to have it really work out as well as you see the "Evasion" toons making it work, and that requires a FTR build that gives up other things.

I have a 14ftr 2rouge that does quite well. His standing reflex with no buffs is a 22, his AC only drops by 2 when going from MFP to MBP, he has a 32 Str and 402 unbuffed HP. He is by no means the be all end all killer but he does quite well even in kobold elite. I think that I made the correct choices with this toon thus far as he is very fun to play.