How should a respec work?

[Quanefel]

And you will get to use it, when you reach a certain level. No different to that other raid loot you pulled that has a min level or normal loot with a min level. You wouldn't lose them, you would just have to wait a few levels for them to kick in. You wouldn;t have to earn them a second time, only by levelling as per normal.
Exactely the same as most of the good loot in the game you wouldn't be able to use at level 1 if you respecced.

All of this seems as compounding the problem than helping it. Tomes at that point are only usable at the required level as opposed to now where we can use it freely at whatever level we eat it. It is not really the same as raid loot as you generally have to be at the required level to use that item when you obtain it. Unbound tomes are free to aquire, sent away to another character at any time a player desires and you do not have any level requirement to obtain one or use it. I do not see this change to tomes as a change players would go for, do you?

[Falco_Easts]

All of this seems as compounding the problem than helping it. Tomes at that point are only usable at the required level as opposed to now where we can use it freely at whatever level we eat it. It is not really the same as raid loot as you generally have to be at the required level to use that item when you obtain it. Unbound tomes are free to aquire, sent away to another character at any time a player desires and you do not have any level requirement to obtain one or use it. I do not see this change to tomes as a change players would go for, do you?

I never said it would apply to all tomes, only those eaten before a respec. It would only affect those characters who respec to zero. +1 & +2 unbound tomes could still be sent off and used as per normal and no, I don't think to many would have a problem with it if was part of the whole respec deal.

[bobbryan2]

I never said it would apply to all tomes, only those eaten before a respec. It would only affect those characters who respec to zero. +1 & +2 unbound tomes could still be sent off and used as per normal and no, I don't think to many would have a problem with it if was part of the whole respec deal.

...

You don't think it's a problem that if a character respecs... one who he sent a tome to at lvl 1... he actually ends up worse?

[geoffhanna]

I think you guys are very much over estimating the impact of tomes.

Imagine the "worst" case (ignoring +4 tomes for now since as far as I know there is only one in the game) meaning a 32-point build with six +3 tomes.

Yes this character will be hugely overpowered while levelling. So what?

No one is going to spend months and months capping a character and loading her/him up with +3 tomes so that they can run harbor quests. They will be back up and capped as fast as possible, and in the end game they are not hugely overpowered. It is already easy to over twink a lowbie, this does not change that.

The Remort

should certainly be in the pool of options under consideration.

The paid one sounds pretty much like "Pay some money to roll up a new fully capped character, providing you have one already." I have no problem with that, because in the scenario detailed, the player already has a fully-equipped capped character, which will "go away" when it's replaced by the new respec.

That was not what I intended. My apologies for lack of clarity. I did not intend to imply that the target character would have to be capped too.

Although if that got us a respec, even this little tiny respec, you know what? I'd go for it.

[Falco_Easts]

...

You don't think it's a problem that if a character respecs... one who he sent a tome to at lvl 1... he actually ends up worse?

For a +2 tome he's one stat point worse of for 5 levels out of 20. Chances are if they can afford to send a +2 tome to a new character that 5 levels won't last long anyway.
No, I don't think that's a major problem but I can see others might.
Would you consider having a level 1 with +3/+4 tomes on each stat a better alternative? Maybe when unbound +3 tomes appear they are level restricted and only bound tomes aren't?

I'm just throwin idea's out there because I am dead quite at work and extremely bored so please don't think I am getting carried away by all the posts

[bobbryan2]

For a +2 tome he's one stat point worse of for 5 levels out of 20. Chances are if they can afford to send a +2 tome to a new character that 5 levels won't last long anyway.
No, I don't think that's a major problem but I can see others might.
Would you consider having a level 1 with +3/+4 tomes on each stat a better alternative? Maybe when unbound +3 tomes appear they are level restricted and only bound tomes aren't?

I'm just throwin idea's out there because I am dead quite at work and extremely bored so please don't think I am getting carried away by all the posts

You're not getting it.

He's PERMANENTLY worse because he gets fewer skill points at level ups.

[Falco_Easts]

You're not getting it.

He's PERMANENTLY worse because he gets fewer skill points at level ups.

Well drop the level to 1 for +2 to apply to stats and make unbound +3 and +4 tomes have min levels when they appear in the loot tables.

[branmakmuffin]

That was not what I intended. My apologies for lack of clarity. I did not intend to imply that the target character would have to be capped too.

Although if that got us a respec, even this little tiny respec, you know what? I'd go for it.

No, I know you didn't mean it had to be capped. But it could be.

[Enochroot]

This is the best method I've ever seen (slightly edited for this thread - ie. "previously posted" comments):


Allowing an existing character simply to reroll from the character screen makes sense on *all* levels, as far as I'm concerned. Rollback or respec is not such a good idea, for many reasons.


Allowing reroll from character screen would:

- increase replayability for veteran characters - number one reason, I would play ALL the time if I could relevel any insane class/race/stat combination I chose, without having to regrind all the bound loot in the game - this would singlehandedly bring me back to the game (been gone for a bit)
- previously stated increased replayability would result in more lowbie/mid quests being run by veteran players
- rerolled toons would *only* be overtwinked by maybe +1 in stats (+3 stat tome) versus what veteran players often just twink their new toons, which is +2's anyway
- would negate many complaints about "game-changing" nerfs, you can just reroll to flavor of the month, or not, your choice!
- help players that have an original toon that is still 28pt


What this would NOT allow, as some previous ideas indicate:

- capped toons to just "switch characters" for a given quest or flavor of the month "at will" (I would never support this - because it would mean potential "cost" - and since this would benefit game replayability, I don't think it should cost money!). The "cost" would be in having to relevel, but in my opinion, this is *getting* to relevel with a new class/stats/race, etc. The cost in itself is a benefit! Good for all!


Concerning quest counter resets:

- Easiest would probably be just resetting all quest counters - keep favor though!!
- Might be cool if it didn't reset *all* quest counters if it encouraged running alternate quests somehow, but that would have to be thought through (again, easiest just to reset them all)


This NEEDS to be in game for a million reasons (or 5, whatever i posted) - it will keep players around and keep the game fresh and fun.

[redoubt]

1. select character and press "respec"
2. rebuild character on character creation screen
--a. Race does not change
--b. Sex does not change
--c. +1 & +2 tomes appear at level 1 (but after creation)
--d. +3 and higher tomes appear as bound tomes in inventory. Useable at Turbine set min level.
--e. Can open all quests below level 12 on elite automatically.
--f. not sure about favor reset or not. Could be considered part of the price of the reset. Though if it is reset, you have to watch out for doubling of favor tomes.
--g. xp is zero.
--h. not sure about bank and backpack space. Should this stay max'd or reset like a new character and re-earn them. Re-earning them would require the character to pare down their gear to the one bank slot and three backpack before respec'ing.
3. play your respec'd character up through the levels and rebuild the way you want.

[Fenrisulven6]

The respec does not change appearance

Is there a good reason to deny cosmetic respecs? Coding burden or some such?

[GrayOldDruid]

Option #1: The Remort

Option #2: The Token Respec

I like both of those, though I would prefer the Token Respec. For things like, "Oh, UMD is pretty useless unless you can hit 40?" or "oh, THAT is why an 8 Charisma isn't a good idea for a xxx" and "Yeah, that level of bard really didn't fit on this character.... oh, Fiddlesticks!..."

Think of this... I have my Fully Equipped Level 16 Sorcerer who splashed a level of Bard to get armor and some weapons use - very early on and shortly after I started playing (rolled as soon as I hit Drow favor level on my first character). Now that I have experience, I'm thinking reroll.... but what about all my loot and Shroud items??? I'll stick with it.... A respec option would be Great!! Sure, I could have several options, but all my loot is for a Sorcerer... so I go through all my levels, re-spending skill points, re-spending level-up attribute/ability points and I make that level of Bard a level of Sorc, correcting my tactical error.
My Main character would also LOVE to get a respec.... of course this would be used to have the 32pt build favor that HE unlocked actually benefit HIM... would probably love to re-distribute skill points to where they make sense as well. Things have changed so much since I started playing... or my understanding of them has... or both... that some tweeking would be wonderful. Still, all my loot I have on him is for a Ranged Ranger.. so... why go another direction?? and changing the hairstyle would be AWESOME!! I didn't know it was a static 'do forever when I created him.

How much good would the loot of a lvl 16 Cleric help a lvl 16 Barbarian?

or you could be respecing a level 8 character... ..

[Dworkin_of_Amber]

Any Respec system has it's inherent flaws, no matter how it is implemented, given the way that DDO works, and most importantly, with respect to INT Tomes influencing Skill Points at Level-Up. Any system that is used will expose this issue, and there is no single solution that will solve it across the board.

Obviously, any Respec would have to strip all Tomes out, and we will go on the assumption that it will drop the appropriate Tomes back into the player's inventory in some manner. No matter how this is done (one Tome of the highest level you ate, or broken into a +1 and +2, or +1, +2, and +3 Tome at various ML's), someone will end up with more or fewer skill points. The example is the character that ate an unbound +2 INT Tome at Level 1, vs. the character that only ever ate a +2 INT Tome at L16. If you give, on respec, the +2 Tome at ML1, then the second character gets extra skill points, if you give a ML1 +1 Tome, and a ML 8 +2 Tome (for example), then the first player gets fewer, and the second gets more. If you make the +2 INT Tome ML16 (or whatever your character level is on respec), then the first gets fewer and the second gets the same... either way, someone is unhappy.

I think the best overall way to handle this, is to strip the Tomes, and place Tomes of multiple +'s and ML's in the character's backpack, bound. So if you have a +3 Int Tome, then you get a ML1 +1 Tome, a ML8 +2 Tome, and a ML12 +3 Tome (These are split by what is really the earliest level you would have seen/gotten such a Tome while leveling, under normal circumstances, from the launch of the Game... ML8 for Velah, and ML12 for Stormreaver). Yes, the characters who ate an Unbound +2 Tome at Level 1 could end up with fewer Skill Points, but they can also choose not to Respec.

Basics of the Respec System
1) Premium Service Only. $15-$20. (Helps generate revenue, offsets Dev time to develop this) -Don't care if there is a timer on it or not.
2) Resets character back to Intial Character Creation Screen. First Name is locked, Surname is not, nor is Race, Class, Alignment, Appearance.
3) 28-point remains 28-point. 32-point remains 32-point. If Turbine cannot determine 28 vs. 32 point, then all rerolls become 32 point (except Drow). I think they should stay the original point array, and only deviate due to technical limitations
4) All Favor Remains, as well as Bound Items, Bank Space, Inventory Space, Inventory/Bank Items etc.
5) All Tomes are stripped from the Character, and placed into the Character's Inventory, bound, and stepped (If you ate a +3 INT Tome, you have a ML1 +1 INT Tome, and ML8 +2 INT Tome, and a ML12 +3 INT Tome... and a ML16 +4 INT Tome, if you manage to get that lucky).
6) After reroll, character is dropped into the Leaky Dinghy, as a Level 1, but with the XP to go back to whatever level they were previously. They run to their trainers and re-level up.

I can see a reasonable arguement against #6, and I would offer 2 other options.
6a) Character is dropped 4 Levels. (Ie Capped 16 becomes fresh L12). This makes the character gain at least 1 Level without the help of their usual party members (ie have to get to 13 with others/PuG's/whoever before running with the 16's again)

6b) Character is reset to Level 1 (Dropped on the Beach like a new character). All Completion Counts on all quests are reset (so first-time bonuses for Normal/Hard/Elite are available), but character can open directly on Elite.


Now, yes, there are a few people (Unbound +2 INT Tomes) who lose a few skill points, and some who gain a few (but not that many). But those who ate that +2 INT Tome at Level 1 can decide for themselves if they want to potentially lose a few skill points for the reroll. They could also, of course, modify their new starting stats to take this into account to not lose any skill points. Is it completely fair, no. But I think it is the most fair option possible.

[Cireeric]

I thought this respec talk was just going to apply to skill points, not a total makeover of a players class makeup.

To me, if a skill respec is to take place, Turbine must take into account when tomes are eaten.

Skills reset to level one.

Skill points allocated as to when what classes were chosen when leveling on original character. NO CHANGING OF class or the order in which the class was chosen.

Tomes to be applied at the level they were originally used.

[Girevik]

I think you all are so worried about how the power gamers are going to abuse the system that you are making it almost worthless to more casual players.

That will only serve to increase the effectiveness gap between the power gamers and the more casual players.

To what am I referring? The idea of keeping Raid Loot, but losing experience points and the levels they will buy.

Casual players don't "cap" characters in two weeks. It can take months or even years. Any respec plan that takes away hundreds of thousands of experience points is one that has such an egregiously high cost to the casual player that I don't think they should even bother with it.

Real-time, calendar-based timers or limitations on number of respecs is fine. Taking the one character that that casual player has managed to cap and bringing it back to level one is not.

[geoffhanna]

Is there a good reason to deny cosmetic respecs? Coding burden or some such?

No, I just assumed it was hard or we would have it already.

[QuantumFX]

I thought this respec talk was just going to apply to skill points, not a total makeover of a players class makeup.

To me, if a skill respec is to take place, Turbine must take into account when tomes are eaten.

Skills reset to level one.

Skill points allocated as to when what classes were chosen when leveling on original character. NO CHANGING OF class or the order in which the class was chosen.

Tomes to be applied at the level they were originally used.

Your post illustrates the reason why I like the full respec option over the skill point respec. 99% of the problem with a skill respec is that DDO does not keep track of when you ate a tome or when you spent points in a skill. (And I don't think it keeps track of when you took a level unless a feat purchase was involved.) This would result in a wrong number either in how many skill points got refunded to you or when you spent them. A total respec option covers a skill respec and applies the same rules any current character would have to use.

Trying to refocus thread back onto OP's premise:
So do you guys have any other ideas to throw out there?

[vegabond1969]

What about the possibility of respecs involving levels only. Say for instance if you have a lvl 10 rogue and want to respec to the bard class. Your character is on the third rank. You would go to some sort of npc and pay gold to repec to the bard class. Bard,Rogue, and Ranger are all considered specilist under the new system so your character would loose all ranks down to the beginning of lvl 10, meaning loss of all xp to that point. However, say you have the same situation but want to respec to say a barbarian, now you have completely left your class area completely, meaning you would start out at lvl 1. Further more, you would loose all tomes, class feats exc. I dont think you should be allowed to keep those items because you are essentially rerolling to a new class. In regards to multi-class characters, only one class at a time can be selected to respec. Just my 2 copper.

[Junts]

I've spent a while on this and finally decided I'm for a revert-to-lv1-same-original-class respec with tome/gear retention and no resetting of quest counters (so you just have to go do something different), most importantly, it will really discourage frequent rerolling of the same toon, because leveling it the 3rd or 4th time would become really difficult.

[Enochroot]

Taking the one character that that casual player has managed to cap and bringing it back to level one is not.

Hm, I still don't see this as a penalty, but as a feature, to allow replay of the game with your same toon.

Even casual players will simply just stay at cap for a "longer" period of time, until they feel they've ground enough, and would like to replay the game.

I've spent a while on this and finally decided I'm for a revert-to-lv1-same-original-class respec with tome/gear retention and no resetting of quest counters (so you just have to go do something different), most importantly, it will really discourage frequent rerolling of the same toon, because leveling it the 3rd or 4th time would become really difficult.

Junts, this is an AWESOME point - one I originally debated and decided I wasn't sure how far to go with "no quest counter reset" - as at some point this would make it impossible to re-roll, which I'm against.

Who cares if you want to re-roll 900 times? Why are people so worried about that? If a power-gamer wants to level a toon 900 times it doesn't hurt anyone but his own time, it doesn't hurt the casual gamer! (Unless we're talking about zerging low level quests again, let's take that discussion elsewhere?)

But increased replayability with the added bonus of encouraging content replayability would be awesome.

Quick out-line of my three-plank plan of awesome for *this* mmo:

- reincarnatability of toons
- dynamic loot and xp tables based on how much a quest is played by the community - this will auto-adjust xp/loot/balance of quests simply as the market dictates. (off topic for this thread, we can go into it elsewhere)
- rework loot tables to make random loot meaningful (plenty of threads on this, don't need to go into it here)

- I'm starting to have a fourth and jump on the bandwagon of limiting supplies we can buy so everyone doesn't walk around with stacks of 1,000's of scrolls/wands/pots, I think this would somewhat limit zerging in lower level quest play, and revitalize that as well, as well as allowing for better design of quests as dev's wouldn't have to try to balance for those that have the supplies and those that don't. (again, off-topic)

This would make play through all levels more interesting, imo, and allow replay for a much, much longer time.

Anyway, just trying to clear up motivations for reincarnation option and why I think it would inherently serve both the community and Turbine.