How should a respec work?

[geoffhanna]

Please this is NOT a thread for arguing whether a respec is a good thing. That topic is addressed here, and by addressed I mean "discussed with such thoroughness that the English language is exhausted and is waving the white flag of surrender".

For this thread, assume that a respec mechanism is coming and that Turbine wants our input as to how it might work. As for me, I suggest two different methods; a free respec and a premium character transfer

Free Respec

• Once per module, each of your characters gets one free respec token
• Using the token resets your character to 4999 XP
• This strips away all levels except the first one, all AP, and bonus attribute points
• The respec does not remove favor, tome increases, or bound loot
• The respec does not change appearance or initial class
• All skills are reset to 0 ranks
• When you earn one XP to reach 2nd level you have to take all of your skill points

Premium Character Transfers

• For a fee you can transfer your favor to another character
• For a fee you can transfer your inherent attribute bonuses to another character
• For a fee you can transfer your bound items to another character
• Combine all three and you have a (pricey) full respec

[Quanefel]

If a full respec was put into place, would those who rerolled be given a token as well to go back to where their character was before the respec/reroll took place? In that way, it would benefit everyone. Equally and fairly?

That is of course "assuming" Turbine allowed a full repec as you have stated.

[bobbryan2]

If a full respec was put into place, would those who rerolled be given a token as well to go back to where their character was before the respec/reroll took place? In that way, it would benefit everyone. Equally and fairly?

That is of course "assuming" Turbine allowed a full repec as you have stated.

That would only work if Turbine kept track of tomes and bound loot on a character even after character deletion.

I'm gonna say that somewhere between utterly false and extraordinarily unlikely.

If, however, they do... then sure. Would that make you happy?

[Quanefel]

That would only work if Turbine kept track of tomes and bound loot on a character even after character deletion.

I'm gonna say that somewhere between utterly false and extraordinarily unlikely.

If, however, they do... then sure. Would that make you happy?

It should not be too unreasonable to think they couldn't go back and have all that information for my small suggestion to work. If they have all the information needed to allow for this full respec idea to work, it should not be a difficult matter to work in other past progession from a previous reroll into it as well. In my opinion at least.

As far as it making me happy, it would not change me being happy or unhappy currently. I'd be happy regardless, I am personally not worried about things I might have lost. Although I am sure others might be worried about their lost gear/loot when they rerolled.

[branmakmuffin]

Please this is NOT a thread for arguing whether a respec is a good thing. That topic is addressed here, and by addressed I mean "discussed with such thoroughness that the English language is exhausted and is waving the white flag of surrender".

For this thread, assume that a respec mechanism is coming and that Turbine wants our input as to how it might work. As for me, I suggest two different methods; a free respec and a premium character transfer

Why not the possibility of both?

(And just because I don't like the idea of respecs doesn't mean I can't discuss them in a way that assumes they will happen)

[geoffhanna]

Which part of both? I am confused.

Quanefel, you are suggesting that a respec should include an undo. Is that correct?

[branmakmuffin]

Which part of both? I am confused.

The free and the paid respec mechanisms,which you detailed in your OP. The paid one sounds pretty much like "Pay some money to roll up a new fully capped character, providing you have one already." I have no problem with that, because in the scenario detailed, the player already has a fully-equipped capped character, which will "go away" when it's replaced by the new respec.

[Korvek]

I would increase the time limit to once on a character per year perhaps. One character maximum per account each module, at least on the free version. Perhaps an extra 25$ per character (either in the same module or for the same character in the same year) after that as a premium service. For those who would shell out the money for it, I don't see why they shouldn't be able to respec. It would be another reasonable source of income for Turbine at any rate.

That would just be a personal preference though, as I'd probably end up seeing way too many FotM builds if every character got a respec every module.

[Quanefel]

Which part of both? I am confused.

Quanefel, you are suggesting that a respec should include an undo. Is that correct?

I am not suggesting a "should" it be, I am asking about a "would" it be if we are to assume it was to be in place. Sorry if I was not clear on that point.

[Falco_Easts]

I think any respec will need to take the character back to creation. As Turbine haven't kept track of tome usage/level and when skill points were taken, it would be the only way for it to work.
I think any tomes eaten should have a min level before applying. Say +1 at level 1, +2 at level 5, +3 at level 10 and +4 at level 15. If you ate a higher tome you receive +1 to the relevant stat each time you pass the benchmark until you reach the full useage of your tome. Skill points are then regained per level as per normal as you progress.
All bound loot remains with the character but all favour and XP is reset. Quest counters are also reset.

[Quanefel]

I think any respec will need to take the character back to creation. As Turbine haven't kept track of tome usage/level and when skill points were taken, it would be the only way for it to work.
I think any tomes eaten should have a min level before applying. Say +1 at level 1, +2 at level 5, +3 at level 10 and +4 at level 15. If you ate a higher tome you receive +1 to the relevant stat each time you pass the benchmark until you reach the full useage of your tome. Skill points are then regained per level as per normal as you progress.
All bound loot remains with the character but all favour and XP is reset. Quest counters are also reset.

I am not sure that is such a good idea as it is. By making tomes only usable at certain levels than one of the few advatages of rerolling will be taken away. That would force the hand of the reroll player to do the very thing he did not want to do, a respec. That would also be unfair as tomes being usable by any who gets one to reworked to satisfy the respec optional idea. That is further coding on top of the coding for the full respec.

[Falco_Easts]

I am not sure that is such a good idea as it is. By making tomes only usable at certain levels than one of the few advatages of rerolling will be taken away. That would force the hand of the reroll player to do the very thing he did not want to do, a respec. That would also be unfair as tomes being usable by any who gets one to reworked to satisfy the respec optional idea. That is further coding on top of the coding for the full respec.

True, but I do not like the idea of a 32 point build fully twinked and with +3/+4 tomes on every stat running around with new players and their 28 point builds. Can't see that being a good NPE for them. Yeah I know it happens with +2 tomes and gear but I don't see the need to allow it to go to far. Do you really need all that twinking to get through WW?

[Furysetzer]

Aren't tomes considered Inherent Bonuses on your character screen? And isn't the only way to get an Inherent Bonus through a tome? If that's true, then I don't see how someone couldn't figure it out the highest level tome you ate.

Personally, I'm inclined to disallow any kind of respec unless you pay real dollar money for it.

[QuantumFX]

and by addressed I mean "discussed with such thoroughness that the English language is exhausted and is waving the white flag of surrender".

Now THAT is funny!

NOTE: If you're going to quote the **** out of this please for the love of God learn how the quote function works!

Anyway here's my 2 coppers:

Respecs would be offered as total favor rewards. The total favor rewards would be re tiered like so:

• 700 Total Favor - Unlocks Drow for Server, Gives recipient an option for a bound +1 Tome of choice or Character re(spec/mort) token.
• 1400 Total Favor - Unlocks 32pt builds for Server, Gives recipient an option for a bound +2 Tome of choice or Character re(spec/mort) token.
• 2100 Total Favor - Unlocks Drow for Account, Gives recipient an option for a bound +3 Tome of choice or Character re(spec/mort) token.
• 2800 Total Favor - Unlocks 32pt builds for Account, Gives recipient an option for a bound +4 Tome of choice or Character re(spec/mort) token.

I think this system is the best as it offers the opportunity to respec for current and future characters without having people abuse the system. It is also open ended enough to add more opportunities in the future. It also makes the player really consider how bad they want that respec.

The bad parts are that drow are held off for a bit for the new guy but the 32pt builds are easier to achieve. This is also mitigated a bit as the player could simply take the respec shard and jump into the better build.

Note: all characters that received their 1750 rewards would not receive the 1400 reward. Though they would get a free one-time only respec shard.

As for the respec system itself. Here are 2 options that I would like to see. (Translation: This is a one or the other not both side by side!)

Option #1: The Remort
This idea isn’t brought up as much as a “respec system” but I think it has it's merits.

The premise of the system is that the character is brought back to the character generation screen where it is rebuilt utilizing the latest, greatest character generation rules. The player could choose a different race and class.

All bound and normal gear is retained. All favor rewards are intact. Inherent bonuses would either be refunded as a bound tome with the same plus or simply ignored. (A player could just as easily take a tome with them and eat it at newbie beach.)

All bonus XP rewards would be reset and the player would be able to open any quest at whatever difficulty and would remain reflagged for raids like Reaver, Abbot, and the Shroud.

I like this option the most as it encourages the player to replay the character from the ground up. There is no “***?? You were a level 16 paladin yesterday!” to worry about. Twink gear would actually be a disadvantage as all your bound High level gear would be clogging up your inventory and bank slots.

The only argument, I can think of, against this would be the thumb sucking “but think of the new players!” tangent. My counterpoint to that is, it's a good thing for a new player to see the options available to them in action. Knowing that the game will give you a mulligan is a great comfort when you make mistakes.

Option #2: The Token Respec
The premise of the system is that the character would immediately be the same archetype (race/class levels), would pay a small price to respec out of a bad level or could refocus on a previously splashed class at great cost.

Upon using the respec token the character is brought back to the character generation screen where it is rebuilt utilizing the latest, greatest character generation rules. The character is only given the option to take one of the classes he had before. The character's race may not be changed but alignment and stats may be changed.

When the character is returned from the character generation screen: All bound and normal gear is retained. All favor rewards are intact. Inherent bonuses would either be refunded as a bound tome with the same plus or simply ignored. (A player could just as easily take a tome with them and eat it immediately.) And finally the player would have character level up tokens for each level of each class he had taken previously. (Minus the class level he took at level 1 and all tokens would be capped at the level he had respecced.) The player could then visit his trainer to re level up or go earn XP to multiclass into another class they didn't have previously.

All bonus XP rewards wouldn’t be reset. But the player would be able to open any quest at whatever difficulty and would remain reflagged for raids like Reaver, Abbot, and the Shroud.

This option is secondary to remort because I would personally like to play a character from level 1 to learn the little nuances of the build. I think this would be more popular than remort for the general DDO populace as it allows someone to rebuild without the effort of relevelling. It's also hard for a powergamer to exploit. The character’s race is always a constant and with the limited respecs I outlined above they would be hard pressed to turn a paladin into a barbarian overnight.

I can't think of a single flaw with the basic premise of this option. All the arguments against it would be either simple greed or semantics over the minor functions. All I can say is “Man up” to the greedy and “That's for the devs to iron out” for the nitpickers.

[GrayOldDruid]

Option #1: The Remort

Option #2: The Token Respec

I like both of those, though I would prefer the Token Respec. For things like, "Oh, UMD is pretty useless unless you can hit 40?" or "oh, THAT is why an 8 Charisma isn't a good idea for a xxx" and "Yeah, that level of bard really didn't fit on this character.... oh, Fiddlesticks!..."

Think of this... I have my Fully Equipped Level 16 Sorcerer who splashed a level of Bard to get armor and some weapons use - very early on and shortly after I started playing (rolled as soon as I hit Drow favor level on my first character). Now that I have experience, I'm thinking reroll.... but what about all my loot and Shroud items??? I'll stick with it.... A respec option would be Great!! Sure, I could have several options, but all my loot is for a Sorcerer... so I go through all my levels, re-spending skill points, re-spending level-up attribute/ability points and I make that level of Bard a level of Sorc, correcting my tactical error.
My Main character would also LOVE to get a respec.... of course this would be used to have the 32pt build favor that HE unlocked actually benefit HIM... would probably love to re-distribute skill points to where they make sense as well. Things have changed so much since I started playing... or my understanding of them has... or both... that some tweeking would be wonderful. Still, all my loot I have on him is for a Ranged Ranger.. so... why go another direction?? and changing the hairstyle would be AWESOME!! I didn't know it was a static 'do forever when I created him.

How much good would the loot of a lvl 16 Cleric help a lvl 16 Barbarian?

or you could be respecing a level 8 character... ..

[Dworkin_of_Amber]

Any Respec system has it's inherent flaws, no matter how it is implemented, given the way that DDO works, and most importantly, with respect to INT Tomes influencing Skill Points at Level-Up. Any system that is used will expose this issue, and there is no single solution that will solve it across the board.

Obviously, any Respec would have to strip all Tomes out, and we will go on the assumption that it will drop the appropriate Tomes back into the player's inventory in some manner. No matter how this is done (one Tome of the highest level you ate, or broken into a +1 and +2, or +1, +2, and +3 Tome at various ML's), someone will end up with more or fewer skill points. The example is the character that ate an unbound +2 INT Tome at Level 1, vs. the character that only ever ate a +2 INT Tome at L16. If you give, on respec, the +2 Tome at ML1, then the second character gets extra skill points, if you give a ML1 +1 Tome, and a ML 8 +2 Tome (for example), then the first player gets fewer, and the second gets more. If you make the +2 INT Tome ML16 (or whatever your character level is on respec), then the first gets fewer and the second gets the same... either way, someone is unhappy.

I think the best overall way to handle this, is to strip the Tomes, and place Tomes of multiple +'s and ML's in the character's backpack, bound. So if you have a +3 Int Tome, then you get a ML1 +1 Tome, a ML8 +2 Tome, and a ML12 +3 Tome (These are split by what is really the earliest level you would have seen/gotten such a Tome while leveling, under normal circumstances, from the launch of the Game... ML8 for Velah, and ML12 for Stormreaver). Yes, the characters who ate an Unbound +2 Tome at Level 1 could end up with fewer Skill Points, but they can also choose not to Respec.

Basics of the Respec System
1) Premium Service Only. $15-$20. (Helps generate revenue, offsets Dev time to develop this) -Don't care if there is a timer on it or not.
2) Resets character back to Intial Character Creation Screen. First Name is locked, Surname is not, nor is Race, Class, Alignment, Appearance.
3) 28-point remains 28-point. 32-point remains 32-point. If Turbine cannot determine 28 vs. 32 point, then all rerolls become 32 point (except Drow). I think they should stay the original point array, and only deviate due to technical limitations
4) All Favor Remains, as well as Bound Items, Bank Space, Inventory Space, Inventory/Bank Items etc.
5) All Tomes are stripped from the Character, and placed into the Character's Inventory, bound, and stepped (If you ate a +3 INT Tome, you have a ML1 +1 INT Tome, and ML8 +2 INT Tome, and a ML12 +3 INT Tome... and a ML16 +4 INT Tome, if you manage to get that lucky).
6) After reroll, character is dropped into the Leaky Dinghy, as a Level 1, but with the XP to go back to whatever level they were previously. They run to their trainers and re-level up.

I can see a reasonable arguement against #6, and I would offer 2 other options.
6a) Character is dropped 4 Levels. (Ie Capped 16 becomes fresh L12). This makes the character gain at least 1 Level without the help of their usual party members (ie have to get to 13 with others/PuG's/whoever before running with the 16's again)

6b) Character is reset to Level 1 (Dropped on the Beach like a new character). All Completion Counts on all quests are reset (so first-time bonuses for Normal/Hard/Elite are available), but character can open directly on Elite.


Now, yes, there are a few people (Unbound +2 INT Tomes) who lose a few skill points, and some who gain a few (but not that many). But those who ate that +2 INT Tome at Level 1 can decide for themselves if they want to potentially lose a few skill points for the reroll. They could also, of course, modify their new starting stats to take this into account to not lose any skill points. Is it completely fair, no. But I think it is the most fair option possible.

[Cireeric]

I thought this respec talk was just going to apply to skill points, not a total makeover of a players class makeup.

To me, if a skill respec is to take place, Turbine must take into account when tomes are eaten.

Skills reset to level one.

Skill points allocated as to when what classes were chosen when leveling on original character. NO CHANGING OF class or the order in which the class was chosen.

Tomes to be applied at the level they were originally used.

[Girevik]

I think you all are so worried about how the power gamers are going to abuse the system that you are making it almost worthless to more casual players.

That will only serve to increase the effectiveness gap between the power gamers and the more casual players.

To what am I referring? The idea of keeping Raid Loot, but losing experience points and the levels they will buy.

Casual players don't "cap" characters in two weeks. It can take months or even years. Any respec plan that takes away hundreds of thousands of experience points is one that has such an egregiously high cost to the casual player that I don't think they should even bother with it.

Real-time, calendar-based timers or limitations on number of respecs is fine. Taking the one character that that casual player has managed to cap and bringing it back to level one is not.

[QuantumFX]

I thought this respec talk was just going to apply to skill points, not a total makeover of a players class makeup.

To me, if a skill respec is to take place, Turbine must take into account when tomes are eaten.

Skills reset to level one.

Skill points allocated as to when what classes were chosen when leveling on original character. NO CHANGING OF class or the order in which the class was chosen.

Tomes to be applied at the level they were originally used.

Your post illustrates the reason why I like the full respec option over the skill point respec. 99% of the problem with a skill respec is that DDO does not keep track of when you ate a tome or when you spent points in a skill. (And I don't think it keeps track of when you took a level unless a feat purchase was involved.) This would result in a wrong number either in how many skill points got refunded to you or when you spent them. A total respec option covers a skill respec and applies the same rules any current character would have to use.

Trying to refocus thread back onto OP's premise:
So do you guys have any other ideas to throw out there?

[Fenrisulven6]

The respec does not change appearance

Is there a good reason to deny cosmetic respecs? Coding burden or some such?