Prestige Enhancement List (Holiday Bonus!)

[Borror0]

Troll much?

My point was that if they plan on making sorcerer a nuking class, they have to "fix" nuking first.

Sorry if it sounded trollish.

[Tanka]

Hey, you said there was no PrE requiring what is required in PnP. I pointed Tempest. Never said anything more than that.

True, but there's a nice distinction. I mean, if we could have WoP and vorpal raining from both hands, it'd be a touch ridiculous.

1 monk gets you air stance...and 19 rogue is 1d6 SA more

Hmm, stupid high attack speed, 10d6+20 SA, glancing blow procs, huge AC, improved evasion, and big o' PA. Yep, gimped.

2 Monk gets an extra Feat. ATM, 19 Rogue is... Meh. 1d6 more SA is OK, but that's about it. The extra Rogue Feats aren't worth much.

Now, if they made it so you could replace it with any Feat, it'd be better.

[DragonKiller]

Disappointed that Arcane Trickster didn't make the list. My little guy would love to be able to disable a trap from 30' away.

[Pwesiela]

Cuz they're probably trying to reinforce the idea of Sorc's been nukers.. and Wizards being CC.

Which is sad since my sorc has a better dc on her enchantment spells than any bard or wizard I've come across.

[Griphon]

Which is sad since my sorc has a better dc on her enchantment spells than any bard or wizard I've come across.

Yeah I don't see enough Wizards buying Spell Focus feats anymore.

That and the Drow increased Char bonus almost always keeps the Sorcs even better at CC!

(I'll keep my Spell Focuses for Enchantment, and Conjuration, and Illusion... Although I might have to turn one into another for higher DC in one.. Sorta focusing better.)

[Riggs]

Yeah I don't see enough Wizards buying Spell Focus feats anymore.

That and the Drow increased Char bonus almost always keeps the Sorcs even better at CC!

(I'll keep my Spell Focuses for Enchantment, and Conjuration, and Illusion... Although I might have to turn one into another for higher DC in one.. Sorta focusing better.)

Drow get an int bonus too....

The reason nuking is broken is monsters have massive amounts of hit points now.

How much mana would it take to damage a devil or elemental (in sos say)down to 0? How many spells does it take to do 5000 damage to something that is resistant to your main damage spell?

Compare that too a spell pen/necro focus caster that casts one or two fingers and kills something dead once, fast. or if it is immune...then you have to cc it somehow and kill it with weapons, or wait for a melee to do it.

It is the same reason people complain about wops vs damage. Damage is seriously broken at high levels.

[Pwesiela]

Drow get an int bonus too....

The reason nuking is broken is monsters have massive amounts of hit points now.

How much mana would it take to damage a devil or elemental (in sos say)down to 0? How many spells does it take to do 5000 damage to something that is resistant to your main damage spell?

Compare that too a spell pen/necro focus caster that casts one or two fingers and kills something dead once, fast. or if it is immune...then you have to cc it somehow and kill it with weapons, or wait for a melee to do it.

It is the same reason people complain about wops vs damage. Damage is seriously broken at high levels.

I'm more annoyed that things have a blanket "mind control" immunity. OK, so something is controlling it's mind already. Honestly? Why isn't my DC given a chance to overcome the mind control and take charge instead?

As to instadeath spells. I have to laugh at the people who insist on fingering everything when mass hold with a couple of good melees in the group does the same thing to multiple targets for less mana. For example, sure, I could finger everything in ritual sacrifice or the monastery, but I prefer to mass hold 6 or 7 drow/gnoll at a time and watch them get summarily dispatched. Do I get the kill count? No, but I definitely get the assist. Oh, and I only spent, what, 40 mana? instead of 200+. Situational? Sure, but good luck making your save against my hold. I give you a 5% chance. Unless you're blanket immune....

[nbhs275]

Which is sad since my sorc has a better dc on her enchantment spells than any bard or wizard I've come across.

wizards will be getting +2 int at 20, and reduced SP costs on metamagics. Which also means one thats focused on any one school will have the highest possible DCs, especially when paired with cheap heighten (2 sp level means even a heightened web is only costing you 14 extra SP) its a mean combo

[Hanza]

Hope we see some extra character space so I can try a bunch out. This is the real D&D flavor. I love the idea of being able to play one class in several different ways

[Angelus_dead]

Hi Eladrin, here are thoughts on the new stuff announced.

Prestige Enhancements planned over the next few modules are:
Barbarian: Frenzied Berserker, Occult Slayer, Ravager

Occult Slayer and Ravager both look good.

Occult Slayer will obviously gain both offensive and defensive bonuses against casters, which is particularly good in DDO since approximately every real boss monster is a caster too (the D&D class works against anything with spell-like abilities as well). Just counting the current raid bosses, 6/8ths of them are casters.

I'm hopeful Ravager will be a decent proximity/melee debuffer, with low-frequency abilities to strike for con damage or emulate a Fear, Despair, or PK effect. The +1d4 pain damage ability from D&D is underpowered, even in the less-extensive combats of the source game. It should be changed to a passive, and it should probably include some kind of debuff as well (along the lines of Crippling Strike, but a penalty instead of stat damage, so that it won't stack on mobs but will impair bosses). That would give the specialty some melee-defense abilities, and they'd be helpful to whomever the monster is attacking, even if it's not you. (For more views on how a melee debuffer could work, check the Black Orc class from Warhammer Online)

Both Occult Slayer and Ravager could potentially have some defensive effects, but it's a little disappointing that I don't see a true defensive "ultra toughman" barb specialty: something to reverse the thrust of the Frenzied Berserker and to correspond to the Bastion build path in character creation.

Think about something to add features like: +DR, +con while raged, passive natural armor, improved recovery, temp hp on crits, more temp hp on kills, and a percentile reduction to incoming damage (as a boost). Add in increased hate and +intimidate, and it looks like a nice specialty. Maybe even give it "anti-backstab" so you do more damage while you have aggro. (There's also the PHB2 barb option for +str while under 50% hp)

Bard: Spellsinger, Virtuoso, Warchanter

I'm seriously worried that extensions to the Bard specialties haven't been announced for mod 9. The D&D bard class is badly flawed in that new features really slow down past level 15 (as new spell levels and song types stop coming). D&D players can partly fix that with splatbooks, but DDO needs to address it as well. The specialties could be a way to fill that hole, but not if they aren't ready in mod9.

I think I'll make a separate thread on that problem.

Cleric: Exorcist of the Silver Flame, Radiant Servant, Warpriest

It's wise for you to hold off on cleric, wizard, and sorcerer specialties for the mod9 release. Those classes are already pretty powerful, and they're already getting fun new toys in the form of 9th level spells. All the cleric-caster design effort for mod9 should be concentrated on spells, and specialties can come later.

It's important to get the new spells right: to be worthy of being called 9th level they've got to be good, but it'll be hard to achieve that without going overpowered.

Fighter: Kensai, Purple Dragon Knight, Stalwart Defender

I'm sad for no PDK, even though it's predictable that it'd be the Virtuoso of the fighter specialties, whom nobody loves. The other two fighter specs are obviously strong-offense or strong-defense, and most fighter players will gravitate towards one or the other. It may be hard to come up with a team-support fighter spec that's attractive without being overpowered (especially since you need it to be useful both with and without a real bard in the group)

Paladin: Defender of Siberys, Hunter of the Dead, Knight of the Chalice

As mentioned in the other thread, it would be helpful if Knight of Chalice had some fallback features for when Evil Outsiders aren't on the menu. Otherwise expect paladins to swap in and out depending on their raiding schedule for the week. (I suggest a better anti-fear aura, and lesser combat bonuses against monsters related to evil outsiders, including Fiendish templates and evil divine casters)

Ranger: Arcane Archer, Deepwood Sniper, Tempest

So Tempest gets upgraded, but not Sniper? It wouldn't seem too hard to just throw another +1 crit features as stopgaps. Hey, also give it an active ability to "study" a foe for 8 sec, then you self-buff for 60 sec of increased damage against that single creature: +3 if it's a fav enemy, or +6 if it's not. (You could move while studying)

Rogue: Assassin, Mechanic, Thief-Acrobat

Although Mechanic is the one most in need of improvements, you might try to find a way for the 3 active poisons of Assasin 1 to be something other than a waste of pixels (even if it takes tier 2 or 3 for them to become meaningful). One idea: What if Assassin2 got a "blowdart" to apply the poison at range, and without exiting stealth?

Regarding Mechanic, you might go towards granting features from the Combat Trapsmith prestige class. That one has the ability to lay traps almost real-time during combat. It's true that it would be difficult to add features based on laying traps for monsters to approach, because existing DDO abilities to set traps hardly work in gameplay. (The situations where players defend a position against arriving mobs are few and far between, and one doesn't want to add abilities that'll be overpowered in those few defensive quests, but useless otherwise)

Here's an idea: Suppose a Mechanic II has 5 charges of "trapsetting" with him, and he recovers 2/rest or 1 by disarming a box. One can be used to drop a mine that explodes, snaps on an enemy's leg, or (for maximum silliness) unfolds into a blender as seen in DDO dungeons. That last one is going too far: the mechanic rogue would kite mobs back and forth through it as if he'd just cast Blade Barrier.

Sorcerer: Air Savant, Cold Savant, Earth Savant, Fire Savant

It's very hard to predict how those will work in DDO, because the D&D classes are all about intensifying the functions of the Energy Substitution feat, which isn't part of DDO and would be hard to add (both regarding the artwork and the game balance)

However, as they look to be all about the same thing applied to different favority energies, that appears a bit weak that sorcs only really get one specialty. However, maybe it was judged that sorcs overshadow wizards right now and don't need the extra help.

Wizard: Archmage, Pale Master, Wild Mage

Wild Mage is an obvious implementation: randomly-fluctuating caster level and spell power which usually comes out better than a regular wizard, but sometimes is worse. Throw in Random Deflector as a defensive boost (like Entropic Shield), and for more fun give attacks it blocks a chance to harm other monsters. Reckless Dewomer is cool too: suppose it has 9 choices, and by spending 3*X mana you can cast a random level X spell...

Pale Master can have defensive resistances, but I also hope it would improve efficiency with Necromancy spells to be close to a sorc.

Archmage is the generic specialty, but unlike Virtuoso it could actually be pretty attractive. I figure it would have an ability resembling whatever Energy Substitution benefits the Elemental Savant Sorcerers get.

Human: Dragonmark Heir

Back before the release of DDO dragonmarks I predicted that almost none of them would get any use, and I was right. Dragonmark Heir specialties might be able to fix that. One might think that because the Mark of Healing is the most popular one in DDO, it needs the least benefit. Don't be afraid to give them bonuses besides more spell-like abilities: they could get all kinds of special training from that House. Some kinds of features (many of these could be purchased separately with AP, after you took Dragonmark Heir):

All dragonmark heirs might get regenerating dragonmark charges every 90 sec, but only up to 2/3rd your total capacity. Or they could have another way to refill charges, like buying consumable items to do so ("dragonshard infusion").


Mark of Passage:
Combat bonuses with quarterstaff (a traveler's weapon). Higher bonuses from Expeditious Retreat. Fast Movement (like barb). AC bonus while running. Ability to view your mailbox from anywhere (limited charges per rest). Ability to target a player and show him his mailbox, from anywhere.
Spend dragonmark charge to self-buff with Haste or partial incorpreality (extra-planar dodge). Spend dragonmark charge for Greater Teleport.


Mark of Sentinel:
Armor Mastery (like a dwarf). Dex bonus for Towers. Evasion against dragon-breath (only). Toggle ability for +15% melee hate. 5x charges of a 20 sec defense boost (AC, DR, Saves, Energy Resist) castable only on others. Active ability to designate a "ward", a character you're defending (just 1 at a time, 30 sec cooldown on designation). You have +X attack/damage/intim to anyone aggroed your ward, and when your ward is within close range she gains +Y AC, another +Y AC that doesn't stack with paladin aura, and a Shield AC bonus equal to your own (which goes up +2 if you block).
Spend dragonmark charge to self-buff with things like Shield, Barkskin, Stoneskin, Resist Energy, SR, DW, or FOM. Spend dragonmark charge to cast Lionheart or Delay Death (per Cleric capstone).

Mark of Healing:
Spend dragonmark charge for resto (greater, lesser, mass, etc), raise dead, rem disease, neut poison, or mass cures. Spend dragonmark charge to dispel death penalty or self-HOT. Gain a bonus on UMD or caster-level checks to activate curative magic items. Gain access to a special vendor who sells curative items cheaper, but they bind on acquire. Bonus on positive energy spell DC and damage. Undead striking you suffer positive-guard damage.


Mark of Shadow:
Gain bonus on sneak attacks (like halfling guile). Attack/damage bonuses with dagger or kukri. Bonus on rolls to beat concealment. Spend dragonmark charge for True Seeing, Blur, Mass Invis.

Mark of Making:
Spend dragonmark charge to summon from a list of helpful magic items, binded to you and limited by your character level (might consume plat in the creation). Spend dragonmark charge to damage, debuff, or even charm a enemy construct. Gain attack/damage bonus with hammers/mauls. Reduced ASF in metal armor. Spend dragonmark charge to self-buff a circumstance bonus on UMD, Search, and Disable, also granting temporary trapfinding and Disable ranks boosted to character level.

Mark of Warding:
Bonus on haggle. Gain a dividend from House Kundarak every 24 hours (only if you logged in). Spend dragonmark charge to cast any Symbol spell. Save bonus to Symbols. Total immunity to Symbols. Spend dragonmark charge to access your bank from anywhere, or show another character his bank. Spend dragonmark charge to self-buff with one of a variety of guards that harms attackers (including possibly fearsome)

Warforged: Juggernaut [Counts as Barbarian]

The WF Juggernaut is heavily tied into the Improved Fortification feat, which is broken in DDO because it hews too closely to the D&D source. DDO is a different game, and the variations in healing frequency, roster fluidity, and accessibility to Fortification items means that the Improved Fort feat is both less helpful and more expensive than it should be. You should fix it to reduce divine healing instead of eliminate it, and the WF Juggernaut should be similar.

Oh look, I forgot to comment on the monk specialties. Silly me.

[Desteria]

If your sorcerer nukes since module 6, you're a noob.

All the time.....

on RED and PURPLE names, after appling a few debuffs and ONLY because i have no other options sicne they have stupid blanket immunites to any thign but nukes.




btw I'm realyl agreeing with Borro in a sarcastic, lets be an ass way for any oen that did not get that.

[Borror0]

All the time.....

on RED and PURPLE names, after appling a few debuffs and ONLY because i have no other options sicne they have stupid blanket immunites to any thign but nukes.

I was waiting for someone to pull that one out.

[Angelus_dead]

Oh look, I forgot to comment on the monk specialties. Silly me.

There is a higher priority for monk character options than giving them specialty enhancements: first, the Path of Inevitable Dominion needs to be improved. It makes little sense to give a class three more choices, when half of the existing two variants is already brokenly underpowered.

Path of Harmonious Balance has 4 abilities that are moderately good (healing, buffing, spellpoints) and 1 that is rarely powerful (stun immune). Inevitable Dominion has 1 ability that is marginally helpful (Shaken from Fist of Dark), and the rest vacillate between "too weak" and "they're immune". To be generous we could pretend that enough enemies had healers so that the curing debuff was useful, but that would still leave Inevitable Dominion as too weak.

It's simply far too hard to justify playing a Dark monk; it would be the weaker choice even if the Light monk's buffs were all self-only, but considering that a Dark monk also passes up on the opportunity to improve his party, it's indefensible. I won't detail suggestions as to how to fix it; ideas have been posted a lot already. (If bosses weren't immune to the finisher debuffs that'd be a good start!)

As for the upcoming specialties, they seem OK and have straightforward themes. Ninja-spy is rogue-like, Shintao is paladinish, and Henshin Mystic is castery. Here are some features I'd expect they provide.

Ninja Spy will obviously get Sneak Attack, and if DDO rangers gain HIPS at next level then monks could get it from tier 3 Ninja (rogues would also have an opportunity to buy HIPS with APs).

Naturally Ninja Spy will also boost the Hide/MoveSilently/Jump/Tumble/Listen skills (+faster sneaking), and it would be fun if it provided a stealth-only Ki attack along the line of Assassin Death Attack, but weaker. That might be a Venom Touch that only applies on a sneak attack (maybe str damage for primary, then con damage after a 30 second delay). As others have suggested, Ninja Spy could require Path of Inevitable Dominion (but that'd be problematic if that path continues to be so much weaker). Although the Ninja Spy class doesn't turn Invisible, the Ninja base-class from Complete Adventurer does, so the DDO Ninja should get 30-60 sec invis by spending Ki. A bonus resembling Rogue Subtle Backstabbing could be nice.

It would be natural for Ninja Spy to synergize with rogue explicitly; that could be done by allowing Sneak Attack to substitute for one of the feat prereqs.

EDIT: Side topic related to monks who sneak: Stunning Blow doesn't break you out of stealth mode, but Stunning Fist does. That might not be a good thing, if you hoped to emulate an Assassin Rogue.

Henshin Mystic: Passive Detect Invis, later passive True Sight. Uncanny Dodge. Spend Ki to cast Fire Shield, Charm Monster, or to self-buff with knockdown immune (like Rogue Acrobat, but temporary). More duration from the monk's Etherealness ability (which I presume will give you an incorporeal miss-chance against foes). That's still a little weak, so probably some more fire-damage on punches would help. It would also make sense to give a little bonus to the passive monk SR.

Because charming monsters in DDO is sometimes counterproductive (it obstructs you from killing them), he could also get another Will-based CC effect like Hypnosis. Neither that nor Charm Monster will be particularly powerful if the DC comes from cha instead of wis. Another cool variant would be a 10-Ki punch which causes the enemy to fight against his allies for only long enough for one attack (since it lasts so short, the enemy wouldn't switch to your side and become immune to your party's damage; it would just very briefly be tricked into hurting a friend)

It wouldn't hurt to also let the Henshin Mystic spend Ki to self-buff with short-duration Barkskin and Stoneskin... they're mystical abilities representative of transformation to other forms of existence. In fact, it would be helpful if they got a mass-buff to give Natural Armor to all nearby allies (for only 60 seconds, as usual with monk buffs). That would partly equalize the AC gap between parties with and without a ranger in them (but not overshadow rangers if the bonus is lesser).


Shintao: Passive bonus to attack/damage against evil undead/outsiders/abberations, and prehaps other kinds of extra-corrupt monsters. Bonus duration on your buff finishers (this spec would probably require Path of Harmonious Balance). Passive fire+cold resist of 10 per tier. Spend Ki to strike with Holy damage, or Light damage, or to self-buff with heal over time, or to cast Prot Fire/Cold, or to debuff an enemy's spellcasting (like the effect of Trembling Earth, but with a longer range and a lower save DC). Since Paladins get Deathward, Shintao could self-buff it with Ki. Give it pally synergy by adding +1 to your Smite charges, +1 crit mult on all unarmed smites, or even stack monk+paladin levels for smiting damage.

It could also make sense to get bonuses on Diplomacy and a toggle for more threat generation.

In addition, I suggest Shintao Monk project an Aura of Good with +1,+2,+3 bonuses like a low-level paladin would have. That would provide another source of a bonus that PCs can't get any other way, reducing the AC gap between groups with and without a Paladin in them (but it wouldn't overshadow real Paladins, because at level 18 they'll bring much better than +3).

EDIT: Oh, and Shintao needs a 50-ki punch to cast Dismissal on the target. To make it more limited to the flavor, it only works on creatures who are chaotic or evil (thus not elementals, who are less-offensive to the Shintao sense of purity). In gameplay that'd be similar to Quivering Palm, but with a minor advantage versus demons who have more Fort than Will.


Monk players would enjoy it if some of those specialties allowed them to remain centered while holding a slightly bigger range of weapons- however, DDO doesn't include weapons that'd be really great with that theme. It'd be best to do that with weapons that only have poor crits, so they don't really overshadow fists or kama. Henshin Mystic could get Club and Sickle, while Ninja Spy would use Dart and Throwing Dagger (it's tough to visualize a Ninja who can't use darts!).

Many players have requested a Drunken Master specialty, but that would actually be a bad idea because it's a joke class that would require a bunch of new artwork animation, and at the end you'd have people fighting Suulomades with a broken flowerpot. If the improvised weapon is better than fists then it looks silly, and if it's worse then the specialty is wasted. There's no good way out of that except not to do it. A game needs a more robust set of effectively-functioning iconic classes before it has room for joke specialties. And that's without even contemplating what alcoholism would do to the game rating...

An additional way to add complexity to the monk specialties (which would allow them to have better benefits without being overpowered) would be to tied some of their benefits to monk stances. Either declare that certain specialty benefits only work in a particular stance, or have each spec grant a new stance that carries bonuses, penalties, and which doesn't conflict with the regular 4 stances. As an example, suppose that Henshin Mystic gave you 15,30,45 resistance against the energy of the stance you're currently using. Or that Shintao gets a stance for +cha, -dex, deathward, and bonus damage against evil.

[Draccus]

I can't believe Turbine would even mention the N word. I can't think of a faster way to ruin a good game than to introduce the ultimate in middle-school, munchkin kiddie-classes: The Ninja.

Maybe they could make then like the first 3e attempt at the Ninja. I think it had rogue sneak attack progression, fighter AB progression, +1 to all saves every level, barbarian hit dice, invisibility, HiPS, arcane spellcasting, and the ability to insta-kill entire populations with a glance.

www.realultimatepower.net ...that's what DDO needs. *rolls eyes*

[Borror0]

I can't believe Turbine would even mention the N word. I can't think of a faster way to ruin a good game than to introduce the ultimate in middle-school, munchkin kiddie-classes: The Ninja.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't ninjas gimped rogues in D&D?

I don't have oriental adventures so I can't verify that one.

[Angelus_dead]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't ninjas gimped rogues in D&D?

Yes, both the Ninja base class and Ninja prestige class are weak. I'll have to go research the 1st ed Ninja: it was freaky because you were obliged to multiclass as a cover identity (you couldn't even tell the party you were a ninja!)

The central shtick of the Ninja base class is he gets Sneak Attack that only works from stealth, not flanking. So calling him a gimped rogue is very accurate.

[Aspenor]

Yes, both the Ninja base class and Ninja prestige class are weak. I'll have to go research the 1st ed Ninja: it was freaky because you were obliged to multiclass as a cover identity (you couldn't even tell the party you were a ninja!)

The central shtick of the Ninja base class is he gets Sneak Attack that only works from stealth, not flanking. So calling him a gimped rogue is very accurate.

IIRC it's actually when mobs are flat-footed or denied dex bonus to AC....

which usually only happens when attacking from stealth, or the monster is under some magical effect....which is very very rare.

yeah, gimped rogue is the best way to put it.

[Desteria]

the ability is calls suddent strike, nijias did get a swift action invisability though sooooo deniign dex was not that hard at leats a few times perday, (dotn realber the useage numbers).

They had a few other neat abbilities btu in most cases gimped rouges is true but then the BEST rouges only haev a few rouge levels and have nija and sionic levels soo around levle 13 they have 12d6 sneak attack gogogo extream muticlassign and lots of PRC's

[Borror0]

the ability is calls suddent strike

Isn't it not Ghost Strike?

[Aspenor]

Isn't it not Ghost Strike?

it's sudden strike, he's right about that.

it's questionable whether the rogue/(whatever) is more powerful than the spellthief.

the other, other rogue class in eberron, the artificer, is, on the other hand, more powerful than any other class in the hands of a power gamer.