Paladin: Defender of Siberys

[Irongutz2000]

I dunno this seems worse then trying to do a rangers enchanments..........so many good things to chose an not enough points

[Tanka]

1. My most serious concern is duration. Defensive Stance is the core ability of the D&D Defender of Seatiel, so the DDO version must keep that important to preserve the feeling of the prestige class. A short duration like 20 sec means you won't have much chance to use it, particularly around raid bosses. However a longer duration like 60 sec means that against weaker bosses, the Paladin will often defeat the enemy and then be left with 30 sec left before he can move properly again (Wave byebye to the rest of the party!).
The obvious way to address that problem is to allow Defensive Stance to be manually deactivated before it expires (just like Barbarian Rage). If possible, it would be more convenient for the same icon to activate and cancel the mode.

2. Tumbling. I hope we don't see Paladins tumbling around to move while Defensive Stance is up. Prehaps the stance should disallow tumbling.

3. Knockdown. It would be both useful and thematic to add a knockdown immunity to Improved or Superior Defensive Stance- think about fighting Laliat or Xyzzy. Acrobat rogues get that ability permanently, so it should be fine to let certain Paladins have it temporarily. You wouldn't look like a "bastion" of defense flat on your back.

I share all of these concerns.

[Tanka]

I dunno this seems worse then trying to do a rangers enchanments..........so many good things to chose an not enough points

You'll have 80 AP to play with come M9. You can't do everything. Make sacrifices.

[Junts]

RE: Junts' on US:

Odd. I just built a quick Halfing TWF Pally and was able to get US, AC Boost 1, Halfling Dex 2, Pal Cha 2, Monk Wis 1, Resist 3, AC 3, Focus 1, Courage 1, DM 1, Divine Righteousness, Divine Sac 2, Exalted Smite 3, Extra LoH 3, Extra Smite 4 and Extra Turning 1.

That meets all of the pre-reqs for the Defender of Siberys.

my point was that in order to take some of that stuff you have to not take other stuff; not all my enhancements are pre-requisits, but that doesn't mean i'd not take them

my enhancements are:

extra smiting 1-4 (10 ap)
extra loh 1-3 (6ap, 16)
pal cha 1-2 (6 ap, 22)
exalted smiting 1-3 (6 ap, 28)
pally toughness 1-4 (10 ap, 38)
human adaptability cha (2 ap, 40)
human greater adapt, con (4 ap, 44)
racial toughness 1-3 (6 ap, 50)
divine sacrifice I (1 ap, 51)
divine might 1-2 (3 ap, 54)
fighter str 1 (2 ap, 56)
fighter intim 1 (1 ap, 57)
fighter haste I (1 ap, 58)
bulwark of good 1-3 (6 ap, 64)

when the cap raises, I'm already devoted 4 ap to bulwark 4, leaving me with 12 ap to spend

lets heaven forbid I ever need to move human adapt from cha over to another stat and have to pick up pally cha 3

making effective paladins costs a lot of ap; if you really didn't take any class or racial toughness on a halfling pally, well, honestly, i think you're insane, as your ac isn't gonna be untouchable.

i play a toon that raidbuffs into the 70s ac and its a major decision for me to drop racial toughness 3 and the associated enhancement (which ism aking my con odd; I'm spending 7 ap for that last 10, so i will probably drop it. i would not consider dropping paladin toughness 4 for another 4 ap, as that would put me down into the 430s when using an intimidate helm, and that's unacceptable hp for a tank-based toon).


i play a paladin that is already very effective as a main raid tank; the fact that I think chalice is much more easily affordable and hence more bang for my buck is a profound statement about the ap requirements of siberys, which would probably require me to either nerf my hp or my ability to do relevant dps in order to pick up a short-term ac buff.

if defender gives +1 max dex bonus which progresses from ts to heavy to medium, it is not worth it

if I can get +2 or +3 mdb for heavy/plate, i would consider the prestige class; tanking clickies dont work, you have to tank things for too long to use them constantly.

and I don't even have the dex to mine more than +2 max dex to heavy armor out of it (since I'm already using daggertooth to get heavy to +3 mdb)

[Tanka]

and that's unacceptable hp for a tank-based toon).

That or your Cleric isn't paying enough attention to the aggro-generator.

[Angelus_dead]

my point was that in order to take some of that stuff you have to not take other stuff; not all my enhancements are pre-requisites, but that doesn't mean i'd not take them

You have Extra Smite IV, Paladin Tough IV, and Racial Tough III. Dropping the top level of any of those will return you many AP compared to the power lost. You're also spending AP on fighter things that a pure pally wouldn't.

If you want this new stuff, you can drop something to get it.

i would not consider dropping paladin toughness 4 for another 4 ap, as that would put me down into the 430s when using an intimidate helm, and that's unacceptable hp for a tank-based toon).

People get these irrational attachments to Toughness things. Do remember that Defensive Stance gives you +40 hp.

lets heaven forbid I ever need to move human adapt from cha over to another stat and have to pick up pally cha 3

Yeah, then you'd have to make what's called a "trade off".

[Tanka]

i play a paladin that is already very effective as a main raid tank; the fact that I think chalice is much more easily affordable and hence more bang for my buck is a profound statement about the ap requirements of siberys, which would probably require me to either nerf my hp or my ability to do relevant dps in order to pick up a short-term ac buff.

if defender gives +1 max dex bonus which progresses from ts to heavy to medium, it is not worth it

if I can get +2 or +3 mdb for heavy/plate, i would consider the prestige class; tanking clickies dont work, you have to tank things for too long to use them constantly.

and I don't even have the dex to mine more than +2 max dex to heavy armor out of it (since I'm already using daggertooth to get heavy to +3 mdb)

That's all well and good, but as Angelus_dead points out, there's an idea called a tradeoff. You can't be strong DPS and uber Intimitank.

I play a Rogue with low HP and my main (Tanka) only has 448 HP. I get aggro on both of them frequently, one due to SA, the other due to gear and a minor amount of SA. If they die, it's either because I really did bite off more than I could chew (common) or the Cleric I was with fell asleep (rare).

So, really, I believe the proper response is:

[Bahamut2119]

My pally is loving this if im figuring stuff out right 75 unbuffed ac 81 buffed not that far off now from ranger monks and pally monks.

[Junts]

You have Extra Smite IV, Paladin Tough IV, and Racial Tough III. Dropping the top level of any of those will return you many AP compared to the power lost. You're also spending AP on fighter things that a pure pally wouldn't.

If you want this new stuff, you can drop something to get it.


People get these irrational attachments to Toughness things. Do remember that Defensive Stance gives you +40 hp.


Yeah, then you'd have to make what's called a "trade off".

I only have 2 splash levels; therefore, at cap, I have 18 levels of pally ap to spend on the prestige class, the level at which i t becomes available; the ap i have available is the expected amount for people acquiring the prc.

yes, a tradeoff for somethign useful when you're standing absolutely still? awesome, a whole brand of paladins who get piked through quests because they are ungodly useless until there's a big mob for them to tank.

how many raids in the game right now would that be useful in? two? how many quests? maybe one?

this prestige class is powerful, but incredibly inflexible and requires you to pretty much trade off being relevant when you aren't doing what it does.

I'd rather have either of the other two prestige classes, and I'm a paladin tank!

the ac bonus is nice, but unless I can get 15 minutes out if it, its pretty irrelevant for a raidboss, and if i need it for trash mobs, I don't belong in the quest.

angelus: extra smite 4 is a pre-requisite for exalted smite 3 (and 4 if you ever want it), paladins have a lot of intricate ap requirements to pick up their remotely useful enhancements

it costs 7 ap to gain the second crit threat multiplier on your smites and the cooldown improvement

you can't have it without extra smiting 4, or i'd probaby not have it..or es 3 :P


'uber dps'? its a tank paladin, it has a shield - it has to take every damage enhancement known to man to -do any damage whatosever-.

without them, your job is to stand there and, hopefully, be healed

and no, I don't think attachments to toughness are overrated; ac doesn't help with the insane aoe spam in this game, if you're making a non-evasion tank without 450 hp, -you are going to die when stuff starts fireballing you-

450 hp is barely enough for the shroud on hard or elite! what do you think m9 raids are gonna look like?

[Tanka]

My pally is loving this if im figuring stuff out right 75 unbuffed ac 81 buffed not that far off now from ranger monks and pally monks.

Do remember that Dodge bonuses with the same modifier don't stack. So if you're listing two +3s (Chattering Ring/DT armor), subtract 3.

But, yes, this PrE does make FP-wearing S&B Paladins more desirable again. But you've already got to be one to take full effect from it.

[Junts]

Do remember that Dodge bonuses with the same modifier don't stack. So if you're listing two +3s (Chattering Ring/DT armor), subtract 3.

But, yes, this PrE does make FP-wearing S&B Paladins more desirable again. But you've already got to be one to take full effect from it.

unfortunately you also have to be one iwth a lot more dex than it would have been smart to create one with; you can already use daggertooth's belt for 0 ap to mine 2 mdb out of armor, and few pure pallys would have chosen to go with more dex when they had nothing to gain from it.

[Tanka]

450 hp is barely enough for the shroud on hard or elite! what do you think m9 raids are gonna look like?

We'll have 4 more levels, another Feat, 16 more APs and - most importantly - Clerics will get Heal, Mass.

The sky is, in fact, not falling.

[Junts]

We'll have 4 more levels, another Feat, 16 more APs and - most importantly - Clerics will get Heal, Mass.

The sky is, in fact, not falling.

I never said it was; rather, I still find it obnoxious that paladins have all these intricately tied-together enhancements when few other classes have so many sets of pre-reqs; it makes paladins a very ap intensive class -relative to other classes- (the extra smite/exalted smite tie together, making you spend 20 ap to get exalted smite 4, for example, which isn't worth that price, or the way paladin redemption is set up).

other classes don't have random enhancements set up this way; just their prcs.

paladins have both, and that was my point :P

[Tanka]

Paladin Redemption is useless. Either craft some Shroud items for the True Rez or get Ring of the Ancestors for a Raise. Or get decent UMD to scroll-cast.

[ArkoHighStar]

1. My most serious concern is duration. Defensive Stance is the core ability of the D&D Defender of Seatiel, so the DDO version must keep that important to preserve the feeling of the prestige class. A short duration like 20 sec means you won't have much chance to use it, particularly around raid bosses. However a longer duration like 60 sec means that against weaker bosses, the Paladin will often defeat the enemy and then be left with 30 sec left before he can move properly again (Wave byebye to the rest of the party!).
The obvious way to address that problem is to allow Defensive Stance to be manually deactivated before it expires (just like Barbarian Rage). If possible, it would be more convenient for the same icon to activate and cancel the mode.

2. Tumbling. I hope we don't see Paladins tumbling around to move while Defensive Stance is up. Prehaps the stance should disallow tumbling.

3. Knockdown. It would be both useful and thematic to add a knockdown immunity to Improved or Superior Defensive Stance- think about fighting Laliat or Xyzzy. Acrobat rogues get that ability permanently, so it should be fine to let certain Paladins have it temporarily. You wouldn't look like a "bastion" of defense flat on your back.

My hope is that the stance is not timed at all, but is affected by casting spells etc, that way it is not unlimited but is not useless. Agreed on tumbling and knockdown, and if not an immunity then at least a nice bonus vs knockdown

[Junts]

Paladin Redemption is useless. Either craft some Shroud items for the True Rez or get Ring of the Ancestors for a Raise. Or get decent UMD to scroll-cast.

i did all 3 of those things; i obviously don't waste ap on it. my point was that the class's enhancement designs are ap intensive compared to other classes, not that they were worth it (in fact, all the enhancements set up that way are, because of that setup, worthless, though I still go for the smites because I'm desperate for any dps increase; I'd probably pay 10 ap for +1 damage/swing :P)

[Tanka]

i did all 3 of those things; i obviously don't waste ap on it. my point was that the class's enhancement designs are ap intensive compared to other classes, not that they were worth it (in fact, all the enhancements set up that way are, because of that setup, worthless, though I still go for the smites because I'm desperate for any dps increase; I'd probably pay 10 ap for +1 damage/swing :P)

Do you absolutely positively need ES maxed out? If you're relying on Smites to be "DPS", then you're doing it wrong. Intimitanks don't hold aggro via DPS -- they hold it via Intimidate. You, at least, know that much having a 2 Fighter splash. However, it isn't your job to DPS. It's your job to hold aggro so the Barbs, the Rogues, the Rangers, the Fighters specced for DPS can all do their job -- DPS.

You're trying to do two things at once, and the PrEs aren't meant to do two things at once. They're meant to specialize even further.

[Ustice]

Okay, that is two weeks without a puzzle for the info. What gives?

[Yaga_Nub]

Do you absolutely positively need ES maxed out? If you're relying on Smites to be "DPS", then you're doing it wrong. Intimitanks don't hold aggro via DPS -- they hold it via Intimidate. You, at least, know that much having a 2 Fighter splash. However, it isn't your job to DPS. It's your job to hold aggro so the Barbs, the Rogues, the Rangers, the Fighters specced for DPS can all do their job -- DPS.

You're trying to do two things at once, and the PrEs aren't meant to do two things at once. They're meant to specialize even further.

You tell him Tanka!

[Junts]

Do you absolutely positively need ES maxed out? If you're relying on Smites to be "DPS", then you're doing it wrong. Intimitanks don't hold aggro via DPS -- they hold it via Intimidate. You, at least, know that much having a 2 Fighter splash. However, it isn't your job to DPS. It's your job to hold aggro so the Barbs, the Rogues, the Rangers, the Fighters specced for DPS can all do their job -- DPS.

You're trying to do two things at once, and the PrEs aren't meant to do two things at once. They're meant to specialize even further.

holding aggro via intimidate is great; however, there are many, many, many times it is not called for; i would prefer, for example, not to be a completely useless waste of space to take into the shroud, to be able to contribute meaningfully to stealer of souls, etc - because the role of the intimitank is frankly extremely specialized, if you do not give your character another function, you are essentially piking to the 5% of the time where your skillset is needed.

however, -this- class, is not an intimidate class, it is a pure paladin using righeousness and other hate generation mods - it -needs- some dps dealing potential, and smites, in order to pull and keep aggro, because otherwise it will not be able to do so in a useful fashion.

if i could get the dex to gain the full benefit of this prc, i would instead drop dodge, a skill focus and use my lv 18 feat to take the twf chain and have that as an option for the rest of the time - its what good fighter intimitanks do, because -otherwise they are useless pikers half the time-, and they know it

smite, divine sac, divine might, favor, zeal, and a greensteel khopesh get me to the point of 'sort of contributing'

everyone else is gonna spring forward in m9, I'm not looking forward to going back to being totally useless when I'm not tanking the raidboss for everyone. I'll probably take chalice, and if it turns out its not doing enough for me, get hotd for the neg level immunity and restoration clickies; defensive stance needs to not use turn undeads and/or last several minutes per use for me to want to use it. the dr is cool and all, but this isnt something thats going to actually be useful in the game the way the game is most of the time - as it is, i stopped intimidating trashmobs because there's inevitably some fool (often someone I like) who, when I intimidate, stands in the same place as I am and tries to take out hte mobs while getting annihilated by all their attacks :P