Paladin: Defender of Siberys

[Yaga_Nub]

I'm rather a fan of Unyielding Sovreignty. 1,000HP LoH that cures everything, including death penalty? Sure, the 2AP pre-req is lame (+1 to-hit with longswords? Yaaaaawn), but the end result is rather nice in a pinch.

And the Paladin gets his spells and abilities from his faith. It isn't himself, because then he would be a Fighter.

In Eberron, you faith can be an ideal, but the idea is the same. There must be a driving force that the Paladin believes in that is not himself that makes him push himself to defeat Evil.

Wow thanks Tanka, I expected every reply to be for the other point of view.

[Turial]

So the Defender gets the following ac wise?

1.+ ? AC bonus when shield blocking, +1 Dex on towershields, +2 dodge bonus in stance
2. + 1 Dex on towershields and heavy armor, +3 dodge bonus in stance
3. +? AC bonus on Aura, +1 Dex on towershields and heavy/medium armor, +4 dodge in stance

For a total of :

+? AC bonus when blocking, +3 dex on towersheilds, +2 dex on heavy armor, +1 dex on medium armor, +? AC bonus on aura, and +4 dodge in stance

[Junts]

Isn't the curse on-hit and given a will save and shield-blockable? Three things a defender of siberys should have in most cases...

its shield blockable, but it's pretty hard to save against, and shield blocking him to hold his aggro would be quite contrary to the idea of hitting him with increased hate generation in order to actually tank

if these arei mmune to vod curse, they can dps tank suulomades and hold his aggro with their immense hate gen.

if they arent, then their entire stances and everything are useless and they'd have to be intimitanks to hold him in place in order to tank the raid.

I use this raid as an example because its the raid in the game most friendly to 'massive tank handles big mob to protect party'; no one can protect a party from arraetrikos, and there are not really any o ther good opportunities to do so.

if the class can't do what its ideal describes it doing in the raid in the game where that's both necessary and where the class is given the tools to do so, its not a very good set of bonuses.

[Aspenor]

All other PrE's have some "useless" requirement, why wouldn't the paladin's?

At least the req wasn't in something like Paladin diplomacy....

[Geonis]

Faith in what? Oh that's right faith is his religion. Without one then he's not a Paladin.

I'm pretty sure a Paladin or even a Cleric has faith in his/her religion without one of these crappy abilities. In this line, the Faith Enhancements aren't even that big a deal, as only 3 APs are wasted otherwise (AC Boost I, Focus of Good I, and Courage of Good I ), much less than the other PrEs.

[Milolyen]

Not true. The dev post specifically said they don't stack if they are the same BONUS so two +1s do not stack, two +2s do not stack, source doesn't matter, the + does.

Go back and read again and I am sure you will find it states two ITEM bonus of same lvl ... otherwise the dodge feat itself would not stack with the other +1 dodge bonuses out there.

Milolyen

[Turial]

Not true. The dev post specifically said they don't stack if they are the same BONUS so two +1s do not stack, two +2s do not stack, source doesn't matter, the + does.

Dodge bonuses of equal magnitude from items do not stack. Dodge bonuses from other sources will stack. This is how you can get +2 AC from haste and 3rd tier haste Proc.

[etelan]

You may as well say the abilities come from a Paladins "sorcerous powers", it makes about as much sense.

The Paladin in and of him(her)self is a bastion of faith. Being forced to spend 6 APs on crappy faith "enhancements" in an AP starved class, so that it matches some ideal fantasy of yours (or others), is just more of a kick in the boys.

I traded out the highest level of exalted smite and lost the ability to hit for over 500 a swing for a faith II enhancement, unyielding soverignty, and I would recommend it to anyone. Besides, nearly all PrE's have difficult prereqs and not all of them will be helpful for your build. If the use of prestige prereqs outways the benefits for your build then it's a perfect chance to consider the other two PrE's

[Gratch]

its shield blockable, but it's pretty hard to save against, and shield blocking him to hold his aggro would be quite contrary to the idea of hitting him with increased hate generation in order to actually tank

I remember the problem of the vod curse on my pal/fighter intimitank... but then I feat swapped into Force of Personality which kicked my will save up another 8... I get cursed maybe once a VoD run as MT now. Mid 30's will save I think. Though I haven't run it since the 8.2 patch if it's been changed. Too busy getting my warforged new lotto-crafted-docents.

[Mhykke]

All other PrE's have some "useless" requirement, why wouldn't the paladin's?

At least the req wasn't in something like Paladin diplomacy....

The paladin already has useless requirements (the concentration and fear aura requirements), in addition to a feat requirement, in addition to requirements that a lot take (but not all).

It just seems silly for Faith II to be a requirement for all of these Paladin PrE's, consdiering most of the Faith II's have nothing to do with any of these PrE's, and Paladins are already one of, if not the most AP intensive classes.

I just don't get it. Maybe if the devs made Faith I and II lines useful, then people could stomach this more. As it stands, now it's merely spending 6 APs (in addition to the feat and other APs spent) just to spend them.

[Junts]

I'm rather a fan of Unyielding Sovreignty. 1,000HP LoH that cures everything, including death penalty? Sure, the 2AP pre-req is lame (+1 to-hit with longswords? Yaaaaawn), but the end result is rather nice in a pinch.

And the Paladin gets his spells and abilities from his faith. It isn't himself, because then he would be a Fighter.

In Eberron, you faith can be an ideal, but the idea is the same. There must be a driving force that the Paladin believes in that is not himself that makes him push himself to defeat Evil.

things better than US that my paladin can't afford the ap to buy right now:

divine sacrifice II (+2d6 on divine sacs)
divine righteousness I (not essential since I've got a 55 intimidate)
human healing amplification I and II
paladin resistance of good I, II and III (yes, i have nothing in this: nothing)

i have no devotion line (arguably as useful as US over time with a devotion item), either, though I wouldnt claim it is for sure a better way to spend ap; the above all are, however.

ap-starved class, faith enhancements are not worth their cost

at a 1/2 progression i would consider them, for 6 a p, i could have healing amp 20% for that, and thats like 645% better, dude.

[maddmatt70]

All other PrE's have some "useless" requirement, why wouldn't the paladin's?

At least the req wasn't in something like Paladin diplomacy....

Agreed. I actually think that this prestige enhancement class is far easier to make the qualifications then the knight of chalice and hunter of dead prestige enhancements and is comparable to the frenzied berserker enhancements (1 feat cleave and one bad enhancement barbarian damage boost 4 and two good ones that all barbarians really want). The kensai, hunter of dead, and knights of chalice all need to have their requirements changed and/or reduced, but that is another story...

[Geonis]

I traded out the highest level of exalted smite and lost the ability to hit for over 500 a swing for a faith II enhancement, unyielding soverignty, and I would recommend it to anyone. Besides, nearly all PrE's have difficult prereqs and not all of them will be helpful for your build.

I wouldn't trade Exalted Smite 3 for anything else a Paladin can take.

Crit for over 400 on a FINESSE Pally/Monk TWF. Nope, wouldn't trade it for anything.

[ArkoHighStar]

Not true. The dev post specifically said they don't stack if they are the same BONUS so two +1s do not stack, two +2s do not stack, source doesn't matter, the + does.

to clarify this the issue is only with items, so the +3 dodge from the stance will stack with a chattering ring

Identical magnitude dodge bonuses from treasure do not stack in DDO. (With the exception of the Eldritch Ritual Shield/Armor improvements, when we renamed those to "Dodge". We'll rename those yet again to be clearer that those stack with everything but themselves.)

This is an intentional deviation from the basic D&D rules

[Tanka]

RE: Junts' on US:

Odd. I just built a quick Halfing TWF Pally and was able to get US, AC Boost 1, Halfling Dex 2, Pal Cha 2, Monk Wis 1, Resist 3, AC 3, Focus 1, Courage 1, DM 1, Divine Righteousness, Divine Sac 2, Exalted Smite 3, Extra LoH 3, Extra Smite 4 and Extra Turning 1.

That meets all of the pre-reqs for the Defender of Siberys.

[Irongutz2000]

RE: Junts' on US:

Odd. I just built a quick Halfing TWF Pally and was able to get US, AC Boost 1, Halfling Dex 2, Pal Cha 2, Monk Wis 1, Resist 3, AC 3, Focus 1, Courage 1, DM 1, Divine Righteousness, Divine Sac 2, Exalted Smite 3, Extra LoH 3, Extra Smite 4 and Extra Turning 1.

That meets all of the pre-reqs for the Defender of Siberys.

No toughness U need teir 2 to qualify

[Tanka]

No toughness

Upper-70s raid-buffed AC. And Evasion.

Remember, we get another Feat at 18, plus 16 APs. 8 to go this PrE (assuming 4/2/2 cost like the others), 4 to Bulwark 4, leaving 4 for whatever. Take Toughness, get Pal Toughness 2 and Racial 1.

U need teir 2 to qualify

and any of: Paladin Rally I, Paladin Divine Righteousness I, Paladin Toughness II

Done.

[Mhykke]

Remember, we get another Feat at 18, plus 16 APs. 8 to go this PrE (assuming 4/2/2 cost like the others), 4 to Bulwark 4, leaving 4 for whatever. Take Toughness, get Pal Toughness 2 and Racial 1.

Don't forget the capstone, whatever that may be.

[Angelus_dead]

1. My most serious concern is duration. Defensive Stance is the core ability of the D&D Defender of Seatiel, so the DDO version must keep that important to preserve the feeling of the prestige class. A short duration like 20 sec means you won't have much chance to use it, particularly around raid bosses. However a longer duration like 60 sec means that against weaker bosses, the Paladin will often defeat the enemy and then be left with 30 sec left before he can move properly again (Wave byebye to the rest of the party!).
The obvious way to address that problem is to allow Defensive Stance to be manually deactivated before it expires (just like Barbarian Rage). If possible, it would be more convenient for the same icon to activate and cancel the mode.

2. Tumbling. I hope we don't see Paladins tumbling around to move while Defensive Stance is up. Prehaps the stance should disallow tumbling.

3. Knockdown. It would be both useful and thematic to add a knockdown immunity to Improved or Superior Defensive Stance- think about fighting Laliat or Xyzzy. Acrobat rogues get that ability permanently, so it should be fine to let certain Paladins have it temporarily. You wouldn't look like a "bastion" of defense flat on your back.

[Tanka]

Don't forget the capstone, whatever that may be.

My build wouldn't get it - 18Pal/2Mnk.

Plus, the preview Capstones have been OK, but not necessary. It's as a Capstone should be -- good, but not overpowering and overshadowing multiclass builds (who generally gain other benefits from multiclassing).