Paladin: Defender of Siberys

[Angelus_dead]

I wouldn't require a skill respec much more than any previous change made to Intimidate and Diplomacy in the past. (Remember: Intimidate used to suck)

That is very wrong.

Changing Diplomacy to have an effect anything similar to Intimidate would obligate allowing Paladins (and monks, and clerics, and bards) to respec points from Intimidate into Diplomacy. (It would also strengthen the need for class respec)

The two previous occasions where Intimidate was buffed are not obviously not comparable to the proposal of allowing Diplomacy to taunt, because after each of those changes, Intimidate remained the best (and only) skill to pull aggro. If someone had ranks in Intimidate before, there'd be no reason for him to want fewer ranks afterwards- whatever reasons had motivated him to train it could only get stronger.

The problem is especially clear if you picture an existing Pal16 character who has 9 ranks of Intimidate- how would he react to seeing future pure Paladins getting 19 ranks of aggro-pulling Diplomacy for the same cost in skillpoints?

[Borror0]

That is very wrong.

Not saying that there shouldn't be a skill respec if that happened.

But, since Intimidate would stay the best taunt in the game, Turbine use the same logic as they used in the past "Suck it up. It's a matter of trade off. You gave up something for those points. Don't complain that you're gimped because you are not." You already know my view of the argument, but if Turbine does not value skill respec at the moment, then...

[Angelus_dead]

But, since Intimidate would stay the best taunt in the game

It would not. Buffing Diplomacy is a proxy-nerf for Intimidate, and adding shaken to Intimidate wouldn't make up for it, especially since bosses can't get shaken.

The lack of a size penalty on Diplomacy further tilts things...

[Borror0]

[...] especially since bosses can't get shaken.

This includes Barbarian Intimidation?

[Angelus_dead]

This includes Barbarian Intimidation?

Yeah. It's really annoying to get the blue IMMUNITY particles around bosses (or undeads). But if you have Barb Intimidate, you're stuck with it.

[Borror0]

Yeah. It's really annoying to get the blue IMMUNITY particles around bosses (or undeads). But if you have Barb Intimidate, you're stuck with it.

That should change. No logical reasons not to, unless it represents too much work.

[Angelus_dead]

That should change. No logical reasons not to, unless it represents too much work.

As far as logic goes, you could say that all bosses use neg-neg-neg items for immunity to fear, poison, disease, blindness, and instant death.

There's two ways to go on boss immunities: Either try to come up with an in-character explanation, which would mean whatever protects him from Fear would also prevent Shaken, or use a less-simulationist rule that they have resistance only to effects that would take them out of a fight.

Personally I'd prefer the latter, like I suggested immediately after DDO's release: give bosses a feat which allows them to ignore an effect that would prevent them from taking actions, at the cost of a certain amount of hitpoint damage. (The damage might be something like 10 hp per spell-level equivalent of the effect, with a 50% penalty if the effect doesn't grant auto-crits, or a 50% bonus if it causes immediate death). That way, spells like Hold and Charm would contribute to DPS against bosses, instead of being totally harmless.

Anyway, back to a proposed taunt effect from Diplomacy: even if Intimidate was buffed to include free shaken (which is a bad idea, because it's so powerful), and if that shaken worked on bosses, it still wouldn't mean Intimidate is necessarily the best taunt, or that the need for a skill respec isn't higher than for every previous Intimidate change. Some classes just can't get Intimidate as high as they can get Diplomacy, so even if Intimidate can potentially cause stronger effects, it won't be the better choice for characters without a level of fighter, barbarian, or rogue.

[Grimlock]

Paladin Defender of Siberys III
Prereqs: Level 18 Paladin, Defender of Siberys II, Paladin Bulwark of Good III, Paladin Resistance of Good III, and any Paladin Faith II enhancement.
Benefit: Protecting the weak from the depredations of the strong, you become a paragon of defense. This prestige enhancement increases the strength of all of your defensive auras, increases the maximum dexterity bonus allowed by tower shields and medium or heavy armor by 1, and grants the ability to enter a superior defensive stance or to defy your enemies in a glorious stand against evil.

Defender of Siberys III: Superior Defensive Stance
You may expend a Paladin armor boost to become a bastion of defense, gaining a +4 Sacred bonus to Strength and Constitution, a +3 Sacred bonus on all saves, a +4 Dodge bonus to Armor Class, and produce 200% more hate with your melee attacks. While in this stance, you move at half speed.

Defender of Siberys III: Glorious Stand
You may expend a turn attempt to make a glorious stand against your enemies. For a short duration of time, you gain DR 20/epic, take reduced damage from elemental and negative energy, receive double healing from positive energy, and are immune to secondary effects of attacks such as 'wounding' or 'vorpal'. Each time you take damage, you gain the effects of a Cure Light Wounds spell.


Turbine shouldn't have wimped out and made this only available for Level 20 Paladins. Screw the people who took 2 levels of something else.

[elraido]

Paladin Defender of Siberys III
Prereqs: Level 18 Paladin, Defender of Siberys II, Paladin Bulwark of Good III, Paladin Resistance of Good III, and any Paladin Faith II enhancement.
Benefit: Protecting the weak from the depredations of the strong, you become a paragon of defense. This prestige enhancement increases the strength of all of your defensive auras, increases the maximum dexterity bonus allowed by tower shields and medium or heavy armor by 1, and grants the ability to enter a superior defensive stance or to defy your enemies in a glorious stand against evil.

Defender of Siberys III: Superior Defensive Stance
You may expend a Paladin armor boost to become a bastion of defense, gaining a +4 Sacred bonus to Strength and Constitution, a +3 Sacred bonus on all saves, a +4 Dodge bonus to Armor Class, and produce 200% more hate with your melee attacks. While in this stance, you move at half speed.

Defender of Siberys III: Glorious Stand
You may expend a turn attempt to make a glorious stand against your enemies. For a short duration of time, you gain DR 20/epic, take reduced damage from elemental and negative energy, receive double healing from positive energy, and are immune to secondary effects of attacks such as 'wounding' or 'vorpal'. Each time you take damage, you gain the effects of a Cure Light Wounds spell.


Turbine shouldn't have wimped out and made this only available for Level 20 Paladins. Screw the people who took 2 levels of something else.

Those were the chances you took when you multiclassed. I managed to keep my main a pure paladin for 3 years now, threw the good times and the bad with what they have done for them. You had to figure they were going to do something good for Paladins once they got to lvl 20, instead of rewarding those who decided to splash levels. Now you have to figure if the splash of rouge or monk is worth it.

[Dexxaan]

......Turbine shouldn't have wimped out and made this only available for Level 20 Paladins. Screw the people who took 2 levels of something else.

Those were the chances you took when you multiclassed. I managed to keep my main a pure paladin for 3 years now, threw the good times and the bad with what they have done for them. You had to figure they were going to do something good for Paladins once they got to lvl 20, instead of rewarding those who decided to splash levels. Now you have to figure if the splash of rouge or monk is worth it.

RE: Paladin Capstone

No question in my mind that although the Paladin Capstone is probably among the best (most Capstones have proven quite lame IMO) it´s still miles away from providing the benefits of say 2 Rogue, 2 Monk or 2 Fighter Splashes. (And combinations of them - Rogue 3 Fighter 2 Paladin 15 is a MONSTER build for example and only 15 Paladin Levels required.)

Remaining pure is not a performance decision, I´d venture to say it´s a Romantic one and thats fine. There will be a select few Pure Paladins that are up to par for High end content on anything other than normal.....unless they gimp the new content and we start fighting CR14 Trolls......


RE: Defender of Siberys

Definitely the best (known) Paladin PrE and once again Tier III is quite nice and most people will try to get it, but the sweet spot is easily debatable (IMO) at Tier II. So truly you can afford to build your Paladin with higher Stats, Skills, More Feats and Versatility by Multi-Classing, as long as you know what you are doing of course.

The Minos Legens fix took away a lot from all Paladin builds, but moreso from the already "Feat Starved" Pure Paladin and now they´ll be 1 Feat lower than before...... OUCH.

Just because new bells and whistles are coming our way does it mean you shouldn´t value the benefits of Multi-Classing, just open your eyes and look at them with a bit more of a critical eye and look at the whole picture....you´d be surprised to remeber WHY you multi-classed....or should.

[elraido]

RE: Paladin Capstone

No question in my mind that although the Paladin Capstone is probably among the best (most Capstones have proven quite lame IMO) it´s still miles away from providing the benefits of say 2 Rogue, 2 Monk or 2 Fighter Splashes. (And combinations of them - Rogue 3 Fighter 2 Paladin 15 is a MONSTER build for example and only 15 Paladin Levels required.)

Remaining pure is not a performance decision, I´d venture to say it´s a Romantic one and thats fine. There will be a select few Pure Paladins that are up to par for High end content on anything other than normal.....unless they gimp the new content and we start fighting CR14 Trolls......


RE: Defender of Siberys

Definitely the best (known) Paladin PrE and once again Tier III is quite nice and most people will try to get it, but the sweet spot is easily debatable (IMO) at Tier II. So truly you can afford to build your Paladin with higher Stats, Skills, More Feats and Versatility by Multi-Classing, as long as you know what you are doing of course.

The Minos Legens fix took away a lot from all Paladin builds, but moreso from the already "Feat Starved" Pure Paladin and now they´ll be 1 Feat lower than before...... OUCH.

Just because new bells and whistles are coming our way does it mean you shouldn´t value the benefits of Multi-Classing, just open your eyes and look at them with a bit more of a critical eye and look at the whole picture....you´d be surprised to remeber WHY you multi-classed....or should.

The only Mino legens bug that I remember was the take off and put back on for HP bug. Did I miss something? I do have a 13 paladin 2 fighter build, just not that into him. Maybe it is the gear since he isn't my main.

[Dexxaan]

The only Mino legens bug that I remember was the take off and put back on for HP bug. Did I miss something? I do have a 13 paladin 2 fighter build, just not that into him. Maybe it is the gear since he isn't my main.

If you used the helm for Feat Purposes you will no longer be able to do so.

If so, HP´s will be substantially lower and you´ll have to take the feat it "granted".

[Balkas]

This may have been discussed already, but do the bonuses to max dex bonus stack?

IE..

At Tier III, would you have a Max Dex Bonus of 7 or 5 on a Mithral Tower?

[Borror0]

At Tier III, would you have a Max Dex Bonus of 7 or 5 on a Mithral Tower?

Maximum Dex Bonus of 7, Eladrin confirmed it here.

[Cold_Stele]

Remaining pure is not a performance decision, I´d venture to say it´s a Romantic one and thats fine.

Here's a list of reasons why I personally won't and/or regret multi-classing. It has nothing to do with any romantic notions.

1. Pally splash was nerfed.

2. Rogue splash was nerfed/changed (Evasion).

3. People are now clamouring for Monk splash to be nerfed - just like they did for 1 and 2 (I have one of these btw).

3. 10/6 Tempest Barbs were nerf bombed out of existence (and I have one of these too).

4. Multiclassed toons take known low level enhancements/feats/skills from other classes and gamble there won't be any better high level enhancements in the future. In DDO where enhancements are the best thing in the game, and generally are better the more levels you have in a given class, I'm not prepared to take that gamble. Consequently I'm very happy with Weapons of Good and the (rumoured) Weapon Alacrity.

[honkuimushi]

Paladin Defender of Siberys III
Prereqs: Level 18 Paladin, Defender of Siberys II, Paladin Bulwark of Good III, Paladin Resistance of Good III, and any Paladin Faith II enhancement.
Benefit: Protecting the weak from the depredations of the strong, you become a paragon of defense. This prestige enhancement increases the strength of all of your defensive auras, increases the maximum dexterity bonus allowed by tower shields and medium or heavy armor by 1, and grants the ability to enter a superior defensive stance or to defy your enemies in a glorious stand against evil.

Defender of Siberys III: Superior Defensive Stance
You may expend a Paladin armor boost to become a bastion of defense, gaining a +4 Sacred bonus to Strength and Constitution, a +3 Sacred bonus on all saves, a +4 Dodge bonus to Armor Class, and produce 200% more hate with your melee attacks. While in this stance, you move at half speed.

Defender of Siberys III: Glorious Stand
You may expend a turn attempt to make a glorious stand against your enemies. For a short duration of time, you gain DR 20/epic, take reduced damage from elemental and negative energy, receive double healing from positive energy, and are immune to secondary effects of attacks such as 'wounding' or 'vorpal'. Each time you take damage, you gain the effects of a Cure Light Wounds spell.


Turbine shouldn't have wimped out and made this only available for Level 20 Paladins. Screw the people who took 2 levels of something else.

I'm pretty sure that it was left at 6/12/18 because most PrEs have that progression. What multiclassers miss out on is the Capstone ability. Which in the case of Paladins, is actually pretty good. But I cant see how they could justify bumping tier III to 20 or coming up with a progression just for the Defender-- especially if it is the only PrE that requires a pure classed character to take all levels.

[Balkas]

Maximum Dex Bonus of 7, Eladrin confirmed it here.

Thanks. I thought I remembered him saying that but just wanted to make sure.

[Damionic]

Does the following stack?

Warforged Brute Fighting
Bladesworn Transformation
Defender of Siberys

[darkrhavyn]

Having played with the PrE on Lamania, its actually pretty cool. The stance stays active until you toggle it off...so you can come out to run and reenter it when next big battle comes up.

My only complaint is that the glorious stand feature, while hugely awesome, only lasts for 30 secs and has such a slow cooldown that it is not available again if a pitched battle takes more than 30 sec.

The GS ability adds a good deal to the pallys ability to be an effective killer but the long cool down is not very friendly.

For the most part, there are adequate number of APs to get what you want, though I do think that the requirement for the third level..i.e. needing to take the faith line, may be a bit much. Since it takes a total of 6 APs to get the second level of those enhancements, plus what you have to take for the 2nd tier, makes it a bit pricey if you want to maintain some of the other enhancements that increase your ability to do damage when needed.

As some have said, the PrEs are nice, but they do have a tendency to "pigeonhole" characters a bit because of the costs....its seems to be a combo of both pre reqs that I really have no use for and progression requirements making me waste APs just to get to the ones I actually want.

Overall a very nice job, and my only criticisms are the timers and the APs....neither of which make the PrE useless, just probably not as nice as it needed to be to balance out the tempest builds and the monk splashs as well as the beserkers.

[Noctus]

Paladin Defender of Siberys III
Prereqs: Level 18 Paladin, Defender of Siberys II, Paladin Bulwark of Good III, Paladin Resistance of Good III, and any Paladin Faith II enhancement.
Benefit: Protecting the weak from the depredations of the strong, you become a paragon of defense. This prestige enhancement increases the strength of all of your defensive auras, increases the maximum dexterity bonus allowed by tower shields and medium or heavy armor by 1, and grants the ability to enter a superior defensive stance or to defy your enemies in a glorious stand against evil.

Okay, how much is "increases the strength"?

I am rolling up either a 20, a 18/x or a 14/x Defender of Siberys and i just want to know what i get with this enhancement. I dont buy a pig in a poke.

Most propably very nice bonus, perhaps "just" worth it. But maybe a useless +2 to concentration or such. But unless i get the numbers i wont take a huge risk when rolling up my Defender of Siberys and opt for the known quantities of a deep multiclass.

I hate vague descriptions! I cant plan my new character with such basically useless stuff!