Thinking of making my first caster (Wiz/Sorc)...

[bobbryan2]

This is not an argument or defense. This is simply taking an elitist stance. A very poor debate technique and a faulty logic tactic.

One may never shoot an individual with a gun. However, one can still rationalize why its not a good idea to do that. One may never have placed a cat in the microwave, however, and still be capable of pointing out that this is not a nice thing to do based on knowledge of microwaves and cats. And Likewise, experiencing or not experiencing the supposed nirvana of a WF sorcerer does not necessarily indicate expertise on the subject. However, it does indicate a potential bias. (Someone foolish enough to have purchased a 1949 Crosley Hotshot might well over exaggerate its strengths and be too proud to admit its shortcomings.)

A WF casts like an 11th or 12th level Drow Sorc (from a DC POV). Furthermore, most folks who roll WF Sorc's are so concerned with AC and Hp's that they further hamstring their arcane casting ability by selecting many non-arcane spell enhancing feats and enhancements. Are these critical deficits? Probably not, since sorcerers are so **** powerful in general. Compared to the other classes, a hamstrung WF sorcerer still looks pretty good. i'm not sure why we still have these arguments. If someone were to tell people they could play a Barbarian who self heals, however, at max level he could only hit like an 11th level Barbarian with most of his weapons. People would say, wow, thats cool but dont we have that already (a cleric).

I don't think you really know what you're talking about. Sorry. They're 2 DC behind Drow. 1 DC behind elves, halflings, even with dwarves and 1.5 behind humans.

That is NOT casting like an 11th or 12th level caster. They have the same spell pen, the same caster level, the same spell selection, and are generally 1-2 DC behind a similarly specced caster.

Keep in mind I don't even play a WF caster, but I do play a human. I think CON is arguably just as important a stat as CHA for a sorcerer. My human sorc tends to demolish same level drow sorcs, just because of the squishy aspect. My human sorc is usually 32 hp above drow, and a WF would be 48. And that's assuming the drow maxed con as much as he could, which isn't always the case.

I don't know about your playing styles, and perhaps the way you play, you don't need con. I know plenty of casters that don't... but they're also the same ones that positevly suck when soloing. You bring up an example about trolls. But what about if we change the example from 1 troll to 15 caster trolls.

What do you do then? You can't kill 15 trolls quickly enough to not get hit at all. You can put some crowd control down... but I don't know much crowd control that's going to stop 6 things reliably, let alone 15.

Usually it's just put down a firewall, maybe a solid fog, and then kite them back and forth through it. And the WF is definately more equipped to do that than the drow.

I'm not saying Drow sorcs are gimped.

But your view is skewed.

[Rhymer25]

It doesn't seem to occur to this WF player that a Pure Sorcerer (Human or Drow) would just instantly charm the troll, or stone the troll, or force the troll to dance, or just plain one shot kill him. What kinda self respecting pure sorcerer lets a troll hit them. If you are ignorant of capabilities you lack, then it is often easy to view your capabilities as normal or above normal.

If your play style is to CC everything you fight you prolly waste a ton of much needed mana.

Tiny I hate to sound like an elitist but for a moment I will.... Most of the new high end content null and voids many aspects of many builds. Many of the new mobs in the past few patches are immune to most CC. Many many more mobs in high end content debuff you. More mobs use poison/sickness/energy drain/hold and other tricky little devices that add to the pain and torment it is to have flesh.

This "Shouldering the offensive burden" is pure noobitry. %90 of the people in any raid have plenty of dps to go around. I for one choose to 'Shoulder the healing burden'. Most clerics waste a ton of healing on sorc/wiz. Once we get aggro we drop and a cleric needs to target and chain-heal to keep us alive. With Quicken and Reconstruct you are self sufficient, the mana you use on healing will paint a beeming smile on any healer/group.

You never know if your cat will claw its way out of the microwave, leap on your face and claw out your eyes. Cute illustration tho n o o b i e

[Arianrhod]

Just in case the OP is still reading this far....

See, there's plenty of debate even among very experienced players as to whether drow or WF make better sorcerors (or maybe human, or even some other race...). If the idea of a WF sorc appeals to you, don't be afraid to give it a try. Opinions may vary as to whether they're the best race for a sorceror, but clearly the -2 cha isn't enough to exclude them altogether as a viable choice.

[tinyelvis]

Ok this is my statement, "A WF casts like an 11th or 12th level Drow Sorc (from a DC POV)."

And these are your poorly thought out comments.

Where the hell do you get this from? First off, its 2dc

and

I don't think you really know what you're talking about. Sorry. They're 2 DC behind Drow.

I love it when people get upset with what I enlighten them to and then go on to confirm what I wrote and/or agree with me. Though I would probably put it in these terms. A WF at capped level will perform no better with DC related spells than an 11th or 12th level Drow caster and probably much worse. Granted, you probably never looked at it that way but its the truth. Take a drow back to 11th level and he loses 2 DC's. Guys don't shoot the messenger, I am only pointing out the facts here.

Why do I say potentially much worse. One word, Heighten. Often this feat is skipped so that feats important to WF sorc can be taken (quicken for one). Think about this, a web thrown by a Capped WF without hieghten will perform much worse than a web thrown by a 12th level drow Sorc (a +6 DC) difference (+8 for capped Drow). This is noticeable. I know many of you out there have seen it, think of part 4 of Shroud and watch the difference between the web from a pure sorc and a typical WF.

A better approach to discussing the difference might be to take something I have written and show me where I am wrong. Not...hehehe... agree with me and then get all mad just because the answer from a different perspective shocks and irritates you.

This is just one of a number of shortcomings a Warforge Sorc has compared to pure sorc's.

you have no authority to judge the strengths or weaknesses.

The heck I don't. I have demonstrated my knowledge and shown where you seem to be lacking in knowledge using facts and real information. If anything, you don't seem to have the knowledge to even understand your own character. Your only defense up to this point is "I run a warforge therefore I am an expert on the subject and all others should defer to my pronouncements". Well, this is rubbish. I don't play a hafling barbarian/Wizard/Sorcer either. This does not mean I dont know enough to know I dont plan to play one anytime soon. Put up some real information and back up your claim if you can. Other than super self healing (a very nice trait) where does a WF outshine a pure caster?

[transtemporal]

A sorcerer does not have 50% more spell points than a wizard. My capped sorcerer has about 2100 spell points and my wizard has about 1650 spell points.

It is not an upgrade to move from a wizard to a sorcerer it is a choice.

Wait til you get shroud goggles and arch magi. Then the gap becomes pronounced. Still not quite 50% but probably on the order 33%.

[tinyelvis]

You bring up an example about trolls. But what about if we change the example from 1 troll to 15 caster trolls.

I am commenting here because this statement made me laugh, thanks. First off, I dont know what quest you think you are referencing here, but none I know of match this. Second, no sorcerer, Drow, Human or WF should fear any number of Trolls. You should be able to solo the dozens of trolls encountered in part III of the dragon quest chain on elite at a relatively low level. The fact that you don't seem to recognize how easy this encounter should be for a sorcerer makes me question your play style. If your play style involves firewalls and shield blocking, best go with the WF.

Most of the new high end content null and voids many aspects of many builds. Many of the new mobs in the past few patches are immune to most CC. Many many more mobs in high end content debuff you. More mobs use poison/sickness/energy drain/hold and other tricky little devices that add to the pain and torment it is to have flesh.

This statement is misleading and not too accurate. By new content I must assume you refer to Reavers Refuge. The only creatures in a mob that I can think of that cannot be quickly dispatched by a pure caster with high spell pen are the Fire elementals in the Sorjek subquest. In fact, the rever refuge mobs are actually more resistant to AOE elemental spells due to their high hit points and resistances. More now than ever before good performance with spells that require saves matter (ie. charm, finger, web, FTS.....), not the strong suit of the warforge. As for Poison, Disease, energy drain....what high level character is not effectively immune to these?

This "Shouldering the offensive burden" is pure noobitry.

Quickly taking down the bad guys is the best way to play. Whoever, is best capable should do it and others should support. It saves mana, hit point damage and time. What is the point of taking an arcane caster along, the spot would better be filled with a character that will do damage. I would like to know what role you see for a caster in a group. Add a caster like you suggest to a Sorjek quest and you will regret it. Do you also suggest to the Barbarian to not rage or use his best weapon set on mobs. You dont only sound like a noob you sound high.

Most clerics waste a ton of healing on sorc/wiz

Are you kidding me. This statement is just a plain lie. What game do you play? Most sorcerers rarely see cleric healing. Only the very best clerics (and those are few) pay any real attention to arcane casters. Clerics spend the majority of their time healing fighter types and usually badly spec'd ones at that. Part of this is due to poor healing game mechanics that favor healing melee forces. It takes extra work to heal casters efficiently, so most dont even try. If clerics actually payed decent attention to arcane casters there would be absolutely no reason to take a WF caster. Also, if the fighter types would permit or could self heal like the sorcerers, then few to no clerics would run in parties.

[Rhymer25]

Are you kidding me. This statement is just a plain lie. What game do you play? Most sorcerers rarely see cleric healing. Only the very best clerics (and those are few) pay any real attention to arcane casters. Clerics spend the majority of their time healing fighter types and usually badly spec'd ones at that. Part of this is due to poor healing game mechanics that favor healing melee forces. It takes extra work to heal casters efficiently, so most dont even try. If clerics actually payed decent attention to arcane casters there would be absolutely no reason to take a WF caster. Also, if the fighter types would permit or could self heal like the sorcerers, then few to no clerics would run in parties.

Im not sure if your arguing to play a WF or not to play a WF? If most clerics you group with don't pay attn to casters, that is all the more reason to be self sufficient. You bring up a very good point, I have grouped with clerics that /t me they are not healing the other caster because that caster drops like a rock (no WF pun intended)

If DPS is your focus you should play a WF. We do not need to waste as much mana on CC (Some CC but not as much) Hopefully we can stay out of harms way but when we have aggro we can easily reconstruct or use reconstruct scrolls (110 hp heal and no UMD check, nvm the no UMD check for repair wands). No argument can equal the power of full healing yourself. You can make a lvl 16 Drow sorc and find that out or you can find that out on a 16 WF sorc it is up to you. Tiny makes it sound like a drow has a cazy amount of mana and saves a crazy amount by not spending any on healing. I have 2200 sp with tier 3 shroud item and a full reconstruct with Quicken costs me 45 sp per cast (10 less mana than a heightened FoD) That equils a tradeoff of ONE kill.

So ONE kill or ONE death, you be the judge.

Finally I need to point out that because we have immunities we do not need to equip an item that has them thus wasting precious equipment slots. I thought I did not need to point out the obvious but certain cat lovers needed to be filled in.