The Tale of our Demise

[Chaos000]

I never understood how that is supposed to be fun.

makes the combat more "challenging"

people were complaining that they weren't having fun because it was too easy.

[Borror0]

makes the combat more "challenging"

It does not make it more challenging, it makes it longer and boring.

[Chaos000]

It does not make it more challenging, it makes it longer and boring.

I meant challenging to make it not longer and boring

[Angelus_dead]

But Frost Giants have 3400 on normal. So the only way to contribute to a fight is to pull out Con damage weapons, or cast Cloudkill or Web to help the melees. Even Rogues with dual radiance rapiers can't DPS them in any reasonable time, nor can Rangers with FE: Giant.

It's not that DPS is unreasonbly slow, but that con is unreasonably fast. Those rogues and rangers actually COULD kill their hitpoints in a reasonable time: even an average ranger does over 13k hp/minute, meaning he could solo that giant in 15 seconds.

It only looks unreasonable because he can use con damage to kill it in 8 seconds. What's really happening is that the monsters were supposed to last longer, and the quest seems too short because constitution damage kills them unreasonably fast.

You can also really tell that The Shroud had been balanced on the assumption that giving each monster thousands of hitpoints would have forced players to work together to DPS them in teams (like happens with named VOD orthons), instead of simply switching out to weapons that ignore hitpoints completely.

[The_Phenx]

Agreed.

I remember having to cast solid fogs and body pull monsters 1 by 1 becaue they did too much damage and had too many hitpoints + DR.

For me I noticed the turning point when the auction house came along.

I remember when saying you had a holy cold iron weapon got you into a purge group faster than you could blink. Then transmuters because available at (IMHO WAY too low of a level range) and all the bane weapons from invaders were useless.

The AH made serious weapons available to everyone, and as a result the game began to feel easier. Remember how hard you worked for your first +3 bursting weapon?We learned how to fight mobs and developed tactics that made the game easier still.

So the monsters did what we did. They learned how to avoid dying all the time. Good. Could you imagine how freaking boring the game would be if you could just walk into a lvl 19 dungeon and kill everything without breaking a sweat?

Then the shroud took that to the extreme, and we all have top shelf gear now.

Will they become immune to stat damage... probably. Then dps will reign king again, and tactics will chage.

The game designers react to keep things interesting and a challenge. I play the game to PLAY it, not run through it as quick as I can to find some loot. "its irritating that reaver is hard now" Bah keeps me from falling asleep from standing in the corner waiting to loot my chests.

Personally the most fun I have had in a long time was when me and two other guildies went sans cleric, sans caster into Stealer of Souls for the first time. We had one hell of a time, and loved every minute of it.

[Montrose]

>>Snip well-written post about bringing damage back to sane numbers<<

This is a great post, and I agree with just about everything you have said. We've crossed the tipping point with crazy inflated mob HP and damage. If you're swinging for DPS on anything but a red named, you may as well not even be in the quest.

Anyway, great post.

[Ustice]

It only looks unreasonable because he can use con damage to kill it in 8 seconds. What's really happening is that the monsters were supposed to last longer, and the quest seems too short because constitution damage kills them unreasonably fast.

If there were fewer of them, or they didn't hit as hard, or have the reach that they do, I would likely agree.

I'd like to see the tier 3 greensteel bonuses dropped to like a extra +3d6, or something on that magnitude. Maybe even just drop it to +1d6 or +2d6 per hit EVERY time. That and a spell damage decrease would mean that we could lower the monster HD to more reasonable levels.

[Uproar]

Sorry, didn't realize I wasn't entitled to My opinion.........

"Mr. Pot, I'd like to introduce You to Mr. Kettle...."

Entitled? No. Have one, o'kay. The only thing anyone is entitled to is the truth -- not that anyone else is entitled to give them it.

[Vorn]

It does not make it more challenging, it makes it longer and boring.

Unfortunately, for many folks it seems that longer = boring. How long ought a fight last? What makes a fight not boring? I really wonder about this and how the dev's weigh these sorts of things. I know I did when I was DM-ing. If it's 15 sec to dps kill a giant vice 8 sec to con kill a giant (per A_D's quote above), how do you make a good fight or a good series of fights that engage folks while preventing them from getting bored? How do you balance that for different classes, levels of skill and equipment?

As an example when I run SoS in a pug the Sorjek fight is often tense and engaging and we don't always win. When I run Sorjek with 'the usual suspects' it is a couple of minutes of beat down and collect the rune. And, that's usually on 'normal' as most folks aren't inclined to do 'hard' or 'elite' other than once for favor (and that's a bit problematic as there seems to be little profit in getting more favor, atm).

[Randolf_Drake]

Quest design should not take into account any item or enhancement a character may have.

Why? Because they may not have that item.

This is why on one day you can walk through a quest on elite with one group, and then die in a same level group on normal the next day. Different item, and enhancment layout.

The Devs have seemingly started tailoring quests to the inflated power that they have allowed the characters to attain. In an MMO this goes against balance, and that is why 120 HP means death in 2 seconds for my toon in a quest appropriate for his level on normal setting... *sigh*

[Borror0]

Quest design should not take into account any item or enhancement a character may have.

Why? Because they may not have that item.

The delta between hardcore gamer gear and casual gamer has gotten so big that if they don't take it in consideration, hardcore gamers will be Bored.

Problem is, if they do, casual gamers will be shun. That why I'd like Green Steel nerfed...

[Xithos]

Unfortunately, for many folks it seems that longer = boring. How long ought a fight last? What makes a fight not boring? I really wonder about this and how the dev's weigh these sorts of things. I know I did when I was DM-ing. If it's 15 sec to dps kill a giant vice 8 sec to con kill a giant (per A_D's quote above), how do you make a good fight or a good series of fights that engage folks while preventing them from getting bored? How do you balance that for different classes, levels of skill and equipment?

As an example when I run SoS in a pug the Sorjek fight is often tense and engaging and we don't always win. When I run Sorjek with 'the usual suspects' it is a couple of minutes of beat down and collect the rune. And, that's usually on 'normal' as most folks aren't inclined to do 'hard' or 'elite' other than once for favor (and that's a bit problematic as there seems to be little profit in getting more favor, atm).

I'm a big fan of variety; I would like to see something like an encounter with a small group of trash mobs that take about ~8 seconds to kill with something bigger in their midst to rally around that would require DPS like a redname and take maybe 30 seconds to kill with good DPSers working together. Vision gives you something like this if you allow the Bearded Devils to spawn along with the Orthons towards the end. Longer does not always equate to "More Boring" for me as it seems to with some people.

[Turial]

Unfortunately, for many folks it seems that longer = boring. How long ought a fight last? What makes a fight not boring? I really wonder about this and how the dev's weigh these sorts of things. I know I did when I was DM-ing. If it's 15 sec to dps kill a giant vice 8 sec to con kill a giant (per A_D's quote above), how do you make a good fight or a good series of fights that engage folks while preventing them from getting bored? How do you balance that for different classes, levels of skill and equipment?

As an example when I run SoS in a pug the Sorjek fight is often tense and engaging and we don't always win. When I run Sorjek with 'the usual suspects' it is a couple of minutes of beat down and collect the rune. And, that's usually on 'normal' as most folks aren't inclined to do 'hard' or 'elite' other than once for favor (and that's a bit problematic as there seems to be little profit in getting more favor, atm).

The boring part is that the mobs are only pre-programed with scripted actions for time X. If the fight lasts longer then X the mobs actions are simply repeated or the mob bugs out. Lots of mobs make for an exciting short battle because of this which is how the battles originally fell out.

High hp mobs last a lot longer though.

This is why the mod 4 Stormreaver battle and the pit fiend can be so boring for a lot of players. After 1 minute into the battle you have seen everything. The dynamic changes a little when you run into battles with high hp mobs with add-ons such as the hound and to a lesser extent Sally.

[Borror0]

This is why the mod 4 Stormreaver battle and the pit fiend can be so boring for a lot of players. After 1 minute into the battle you have seen everything. The dynamic changes a little when you run into battles with high hp mobs with add-ons such as the hound and to a lesser extent Sally.

Exactly. I hate long fights.

Sally is awesome, to be honest. Requires concentration. As for Harry, it depends on which part. Part 4 is ok. Especially since dying means death. It can lead to pretty fun situations. However, part 5 is just dumb boring. Hold mouse, box him in, stand still, keep buffs up if need be, watch him die.

Reaver is so boring I just go afk and let others do it for me. Or I post on the forums.

Titan is dumb if you are part of the few standing around and nothing doing anything.

I doubt I am alone on hat.

[Tanka]

Reaver is so boring I just go afk and let others do it for me. Or I post on the forums.

You still do Reaver? Aww man. Move on already. Unless it's a new character and you're still looking for a certain item (not a tome), just hit whatever iteration of 20 you're close to and call it.

Seriously though, yeah, standing around doing nothing is positively not fun in a raid. Raids should take the coordination of all involved, not three people.

[Borror0]

You still do Reaver? Aww man. Move on already. Unless it's a new character and you're still looking for a certain item (not a tome), just hit whatever iteration of 20 you're close to and call it.

My bard has not received head yet. Maybe I should have put points into Diplomacy...

But really, I get in the group, go cook something and loot. Not like if I put any effort in it. Blame my guildmates. Perhaps they don't do it anymore. I haven't plated on character anyone knows about in a long time. Playing secret untwinked lowbies for less than a week. Hoping end games become fun again.

[Turial]

...
Seriously though, yeah, standing around doing nothing is positively not fun in a raid. Raids should take the coordination of all involved, not three people.

So long as its not a puzzle then I am with you.

Titan puzzle....boring and only keeps 3-4 people busy.
Abbot puzzle.....I mean mini games....casters only LFMs and completions eh? Only rally keeps 6 people busy while the rest try really hard to die.

The hound has a very good mix of add-on mobs with a central high-hp mob that needs to die to complete the quest. Sally falls a little short on this because depending on the group you can have longish periods of just beating on Sally with nothing else to do.

Part of me wonders if a renenerating mob would make for a good end fight. Rather then high hp you would have moderate hp, immunity to stat damage, and reasonable regeneration combined with DR to provide challenge. Though regeneration thresholds have proven in the past to be bad for DDO as you found limited grouping options for those quests and casual gamers would be at a large disadvantage vs a regenerating mob unless they could really turn up the damage for a short boost to kill it. Perhaps a mob that has adjustable regeneration that players could adjust through optional parts in the end fight.

Imagine fighting a multiple headed hydra who's regeneration was dependent on something outside of the main area. Groups with high DPS could avoid the add-ons of hitting the other rooms and simply beat the hydra down while more casual groups could hit the optional rooms and tone down or even eliminate the regeneration completely. Could be fun depending on how they did it.

[Borror0]

Imagine fighting a multiple headed hydra who's regeneration was dependent on something outside of the main area. Groups with high DPS could avoid the add-ons of hitting the other rooms and simply beat the hydra down while more casual groups could hit the optional rooms and tone down or even eliminate the regeneration completely. Could be fun depending on how they did it.

Sounds a bit like Stormcleave to me.

[Turial]

Sounds a bit like Stormcleave to me.

Stormcleave was too easy in that you could turn off the regen fully by killing a single mob...that and the last time I ran it a single caster could kill him with no trouble cause he wouldn't try to eat the casters.

[Borror0]

Stormcleave was too easy in that you could turn off the regen fully by killing a single mob...that and the last time I ran it a single caster could kill him with no trouble cause he wouldn't try to eat the casters.

Abbot pre-nerf? (But with easier puzzles/mini-games.)