Overhaul the Exotic Weapons!!

[Mhykke]

If everyone quit because the khopesh was nerfed, so be it. I don't play this game because of one weapon. You can re-roll a better toon and cap him in 3 weeks without quitting your job or your family leaving you. Or you can grind the Shroud for another weapon and use a shard to respect the feat. That seems to be the dev's plan anyway. So if you choose to leave because of one weapon change, I won't miss you.

Sure, you might not miss those people, at first.

But if the devs implement unnecessary*, drastic changes, like the one proposed with khopesh, people will not stick around, and the game will struggle (perhaps shut down.)

People have this habit on the forums of suggesting huge changes that most people aren't asking for, that aren't needed, and most wouldn't be happy if implemented.....and think that those changes wouldn't affect the subscriber base, or business.



*Example of why it's unnecessary:
Right now, if someone's making a TWF'er dps'er, then, depending on the race, they're choosing between heavy picks, khopeshes, dwarven axes, and rapiers, mainly.
This change goes through, guess what, nobody spends the feat to take khopesh. Nobody. You've just removed an option. For what? All you accomplish is p*ssing off your customers. Not a smart idea for Turbine to do.

[Lonewolfe]

just to be clear, I'm not calling for khopesh or any of the other weapons the op mentioned to be changed. My comment was about how many weapons in this game are all but useless trash simply because of the stats on them. Why waste time effort and resources on stuff that will never be used. That would be like spending the next mod on changing the trees and landscaping in the orchard, but not improving the play of the quests. Oh wait...we did that with the harbor. DOH!

[Lonewolfe]

Sure, you might not miss those people, at first.

But if the devs implement unnecessary*, drastic changes, like the one proposed with khopesh, people will not stick around, and the game will struggle (perhaps shut down.)

People have this habit on the forums of suggesting huge changes that most people aren't asking for, that aren't needed, and most wouldn't be happy if implemented.....and think that those changes wouldn't affect the subscriber base, or business.



*Example of why it's unnecessary:
Right now, if someone's making a TWF'er dps'er, then, depending on the race, they're choosing between heavy picks, khopeshes, dwarven axes, and rapiers, mainly.
This change goes through, guess what, nobody spends the feat to take khopesh. Nobody. You've just removed an option. For what? All you accomplish is p*ssing off your customers. Not a smart idea for Turbine to do.

Hello....they do that all the time. How many people remember evasion fullplate batmans? How about how they have screwed with casters? How about all those people with Greensteel mauls or greatswords that are collecting dust in the bank? There is no good reason why 90% of the weapons used in this game are from 3 types when there are 50 to choose from. Again, I don't care if they change khopesh or not. Actually couldn't care less. In fact, my comments were centered around making the other weapons more useful, not nerfing one particular weapon. Wouldn't you like balance in the game? I would love to have the choice to....say.... use a heavy mace and not be a dps gimp. How about making something besides a khopesh or DA worth holding. I'm not saying you should make a non-exotic as good as exotic. I'm saying make weapons of similar feat groups fairly equal. I'm not asking for a heavy mace that has 30% crit range and x4 multiplier. But a 19-20 with a x2 or a 20 with x3 only makes sense. Yet, we are all herded into using rapier, khopesh or DA....or we are gimped. Senseless and just lazy IMHO. But our words will go unheard anyway, so I'm done arguing about it. We will all just keep running the lemming train over the cliff until we finally get our fill and move on. And that is a shame, because I really do like the core of this game.

[Mhykke]

Hello....they do that all the time. How many people remember evasion fullplate batmans? How about how they have screwed with casters? How about all those people with Greensteel mauls or greatswords that are collecting dust in the bank? There is no good reason why 90% of the weapons used in this game are from 3 types when there are 50 to choose from. Again, I don't care if they change khopesh or not. Actually couldn't care less. In fact, my comments were centered around making the other weapons more useful, not nerfing one particular weapon. Wouldn't you like balance in the game? I would love to have the choice to....say.... use a heavy mace and not be a dps gimp. How about making something besides a khopesh or DA worth holding. I'm not saying you should make a non-exotic as good as exotic. I'm saying make weapons of similar feat groups fairly equal. I'm not asking for a heavy mace that has 30% crit range and x4 multiplier. But a 19-20 with a x2 or a 20 with x3 only makes sense. Yet, we are all herded into using rapier, khopesh or DA....or we are gimped. Senseless and just lazy IMHO. But our words will go unheard anyway, so I'm done arguing about it. We will all just keep running the lemming train over the cliff until we finally get our fill and move on. And that is a shame, because I really do like the core of this game.

Actually, no, they don't do that all the time, and asking them to do it all the time is asking for trouble. Screwed with casters? You mean by giving them more sp and reducing spell costs? Adding more greensteels to the game isn't nerfing. There's a difference b/w creating a greensteel maul and then having another greensteel weapon introduced, vs. creating a greensteel maul and the devs, after you've created it, reduced the greensteel maul's effectiveness.

And I ask you, why should you be able to hold a heavy mace and not be hurt more than if you had picked up a khopesh, rapier, dwarven axe, or hvy pick? The advantage to heavy maces/morningstar is that all you need is a simple weapon proficiency to use. So a cleric that's not multi picks it up and uses it, for free. Anyone with simple weapon proficiency can pick it up and use it with no penalty. B/c of that, they should be significantly behind other weapons. If not, why bother with anything else? Why should it be relatively close to a khopesh, or dwarven axe, rapier?

And you're leaving out an important aspect when you're talking about rapiers, and dwarven axes. There are races that get bonuses to use those through enhancements. That's a factor of why those weapons are more popular.

[Lonewolfe]

Actually, no, they don't do that all the time, and asking them to do it all the time is asking for trouble. Screwed with casters? You mean by giving them more sp and reducing spell costs? Adding more greensteels to the game isn't nerfing. There's a difference b/w creating a greensteel maul and then having another greensteel weapon introduced, vs. creating a greensteel maul and the devs, after you've created it, reduced the greensteel maul's effectiveness.

And I ask you, why should you be able to hold a heavy mace and not be hurt more than if you had picked up a khopesh, rapier, dwarven axe, or hvy pick? The advantage to heavy maces/morningstar is that all you need is a simple weapon proficiency to use. So a cleric that's not multi picks it up and uses it, for free. Anyone with simple weapon proficiency can pick it up and use it with no penalty. B/c of that, they should be significantly behind other weapons. If not, why bother with anything else? Why should it be relatively close to a khopesh, or dwarven axe, rapier?

And you're leaving out an important aspect when you're talking about rapiers, and dwarven axes. There are races that get bonuses to use those through enhancements. That's a factor of why those weapons are more popular.

Oh please!!!!!! a very small factor. The racial bonuses are nice, but that is just gravy. They use them because they are more powerful than other weapons. Rapiers because of the NEED for stat dmg to kill insanely high hp monsters and da's because of the dmg potential and free feat for most of the melee toons made in the game today. Strike one.

Based on your above comments, rapiers shouldn't be worth much either since "most" anyone can use them....yet, they are the highest sought after weapon in the game. Strike two.

Messing with casters means boosting them then holding them back. First they make them more powerful with more dmg, then they pulled back and increased sr and gave blanket immunities. SP and more efficient use of those SP doesnt make you stronger if you're chance to get through their sr decreases and they get immunity to dmg spells. STIIIIIIIIRRRRRRIIIIIIKKKEEEE THREEEEEEE, YOUR OUT THERE.

and I'll mention again for the 3rd time, I'm not asking for nerfs. You keep referring to it, but I'm not the OP. Using your point about greensteel only makes my point. I suggested that they make some type of equality within feat groups. I never asked for an exotic to be equal to a club.

[Chaos000]

Yes something needs to be done to even the exotic weapons playing field.

there is.

The undesireable exotic weapons tend to go for fairly cheap on the auctionhouse. So the ease of completing weapon sets makes it more desireable to roll a toon that can use the exotic weapon. Just how the player economy works out.

I don't think changing the stats of weapons is a very good idea. Reverting the stats of a weapon to what you might see in the pen and paper is one thing. Revamping 3.5 edition literature is another.

[Arkat]

People like the OP should NOT post threads like this unless they're willing to participate in it beyond a single response or two.

[Mhykke]

Oh please!!!!!! a very small factor. The racial bonuses are nice, but that is just gravy. They use them because they are more powerful than other weapons. Rapiers because of the NEED for stat dmg to kill insanely high hp monsters and da's because of the dmg potential and free feat for most of the melee toons made in the game today. Strike one.

Based on your above comments, rapiers shouldn't be worth much either since "most" anyone can use them....yet, they are the highest sought after weapon in the game. Strike two.

Messing with casters means boosting them then holding them back. First they make them more powerful with more dmg, then they pulled back and increased sr and gave blanket immunities. SP and more efficient use of those SP doesnt make you stronger if you're chance to get through their sr decreases and they get immunity to dmg spells. STIIIIIIIIRRRRRRIIIIIIKKKEEEE THREEEEEEE, YOUR OUT THERE.

and I'll mention again for the 3rd time, I'm not asking for nerfs. You keep referring to it, but I'm not the OP. Using your point about greensteel only makes my point. I suggested that they make some type of equality within feat groups. I never asked for an exotic to be equal to a club.

You're lucky you're not an umpire, b/c the crowd would've attacked you for calling pitches in the dirt hitting the backstop as "strikes."

Based on your above comments, rapiers shouldn't be worth much either since "most" anyone can use them....yet, they are the highest sought after weapon in the game. Strike two.

First of all, I may be wrong here, but I didn't use the word "most." I looked over at my post quickly, and didn't see that I said most anyone. So do me a favor. Don't "quote" me, insinuating I said something, when I didn't, just so you can try and argue against it. What I did say was:

Anyone with simple weapon proficiency can pick it up and use it with no penalty.

So how do you get from that, "based" on my comments, rapiers shouldn't be worth much? Rapiers are a martial weapon. I used the example of a simple weapon. So to counter that, you pick out a martial weapon and say they should be equivalent? Do you really not see the problem there? Your comparison is ridiculous. Again, simple proficiency vs. martial, this isn't hard.


As for your "first" strike, you're incorrect in saying the racial bonus is just "gravy" and that they're only used for stat weapons. A rapier in the hands of an elf is actually a very nice DPS weapon, and a solid option to use.


And as for your 3rd strike fantasy. Guess what, casters and clerics are still the most powerful classes in the game. People aren't upset enough to leave over "immunities" and "increased SR" b/c those aren't big deals. Increased SR is easily built for and around. Just b/c you're having a problem w/ the immunities and SR doesn't mean everyone else is and they should be complaining or leaving the game. Again, casters and clerics are still the most powerful, and solo quests routinely, so your premise that the devs have somehow screwed them over is incorrect on its face.


Strikes indeed.

[Vorn]

You're lucky you're not an umpire, b/c the crowd would've attacked you for calling pitches in the dirt hitting the backstop as "strikes."

Best line in this whole thread!
Now back to your regularly scheduled bickering.

[Strumpoo]

there is.

The undesireable exotic weapons tend to go for fairly cheap on the auctionhouse. So the ease of completing weapon sets makes it more desireable to roll a toon that can use the exotic weapon. Just how the player economy works out.

I don't think changing the stats of weapons is a very good idea. Reverting the stats of a weapon to what you might see in the pen and paper is one thing. Revamping 3.5 edition literature is another.

And just where in 3.5 is there a "greensteel" weapon with increased damage stats?

The numbers on weapons have already been modified. Including the Khopesh itself (X3 instead of x2 crit). They need to update those exotic weapons that are gimped in order to justify the feat spent.

I don't want a nerf to people's precious Khopesh.. I just want the inferior exotics to be boosted a bit to give people a choice on using another weapon.

This isn't pen and paper. No matter how much people want to pretend it is.

[Wizzly_Bear]

justify the feat spent.

you justify it by taking it despite knowing they are inferior.

[Chaos000]

And just where in 3.5 is there a "greensteel" weapon with increased damage stats?

The increased damage stats are explained in the storyline. It doesn't mess with the core weapon stats. I think that's the point.

If you want to mess with the critical multiplier that's fine. If it's base weapon damage and crit range those should not change unless it's made of a special material and/or metal or crafted by a mystical deity or something.

If you want to "fix" or make the feat worth taking all the devs have to do is throw in some named exotic weapons that are desireable to weild with proficiency.

[DSC]

And I ask you, why should you be able to hold a heavy mace and not be hurt more than if you had picked up a khopesh, rapier, dwarven axe, or hvy pick? The advantage to heavy maces/morningstar is that all you need is a simple weapon proficiency to use. So a cleric that's not multi picks it up and uses it, for free. Anyone with simple weapon proficiency can pick it up and use it with no penalty. B/c of that, they should be significantly behind other weapons. If not, why bother with anything else? Why should it be relatively close to a khopesh, or dwarven axe, rapier?

Certainly true. On the other hand, why should a rapier be so much more popular than other Martial weapons? There are actually more people who get the ability to use it (a popular argument for why Shuriken should be awful), so if anything it should be worse, yes?

Here you are picking apart particular points (which to be fair are good targets) like "Heavy Mace should be as good as Longsword"... but don't you still support the larger point, that "weapons in a given Proficiency should be roughly equivalent in overall value"?

Any weapon that is in all ways worse than other weapons really shouldn't be in the game at all. This doesn't mean that every weapon has to be the same, or even "as good" as other weapons, but it should have some circumstance in which it is preferred.
("Some circumstance" could include "because I don't have the ability to use better weapons", e.g. Simple Proficiency.)

[HumanJHawkins]

At the moment..anyone who uses anything other then Khopesh or Heavy repeating crossbows gets "bullied" by other users because of their weapon choice..THIS HAS TO STOP!<cut>

/NOT Signed

I'm all for improving the game, but your post shows that you clearly don't understand the math and the reasoning behind the way the weapons work right now.

Most of the errors have been pointed out by others (i.e. finess would not help, Monks get certain advantages, etc.) so I'm not going to repeat that here... I'm just here to vote no.

[Alavatar]

If they do nerf Khopeshes to be how they should be then Shroud Deconstruction should be implemented in the same update.

Just saying...

[Lonewolfe]

You're lucky you're not an umpire, b/c the crowd would've attacked you for calling pitches in the dirt hitting the backstop as "strikes."





First of all, I may be wrong here, but I didn't use the word "most." I looked over at my post quickly, and didn't see that I said most anyone. So do me a favor. Don't "quote" me, insinuating I said something, when I didn't, just so you can try and argue against it. What I did say was:



So how do you get from that, "based" on my comments, rapiers shouldn't be worth much? Rapiers are a martial weapon. I used the example of a simple weapon. So to counter that, you pick out a martial weapon and say they should be equivalent? Do you really not see the problem there? Your comparison is ridiculous. Again, simple proficiency vs. martial, this isn't hard.


As for your "first" strike, you're incorrect in saying the racial bonus is just "gravy" and that they're only used for stat weapons. A rapier in the hands of an elf is actually a very nice DPS weapon, and a solid option to use.


And as for your 3rd strike fantasy. Guess what, casters and clerics are still the most powerful classes in the game. People aren't upset enough to leave over "immunities" and "increased SR" b/c those aren't big deals. Increased SR is easily built for and around. Just b/c you're having a problem w/ the immunities and SR doesn't mean everyone else is and they should be complaining or leaving the game. Again, casters and clerics are still the most powerful, and solo quests routinely, so your premise that the devs have somehow screwed them over is incorrect on its face.


Strikes indeed.

I can't help it if you keep making futile attempts at pitches in the dirt. The umpire has no choice but to call strikes when the batter hopelessly swings and misses.

Yeah, you got me there. "Most anyone" and "anyone" are entirely different and completely makes your point...NOT.

My comparison of Simple to martial is equal to martial to exotic. They are on different feat levels. I clearly stated that I didn't expect weapons of different feat lvls to equal. Big suprise, you missed again.

Are you telling me that a dps minded toon is choosing a rapier for dmg, when there are tons of much more powerful weapons even in the same feat level? Sure there may be "some", but not a significant number. Come on, the majority of people use huge crit range weapons (rapiers) for stat dmg and other special effects, if you don't think that is true, I'll gladly trade you some very nice ele-burst of pg rapiers for any WoP, banishers, or smiting rapiers you dont need because you are going for dps.

I said new mobs getting high sr and immunities were a major change making it more difficult on casters. You can certainly adapt to the changes, but to say that these things don't effect a caster is simply ignorant. I never said casters/clerics weren't very powerful. They are, that is why they added sr and immunities. Are you even going to foul tip one? Of course in T ball you get to swing until you hit, so wake me up when you get some wood on the ball. I'll be over here catching some z's.