Paladin: Knight of the Chalice (Preview)

[sephiroth1084]

Thank you very much for all the preview nuggets so far! Whether I'm thrilled about everything that has been previewed yet or not, I am distinctly happy that you folks at Turbine have lifted the moratorium on information sharing. Again, thank you for giving us stuff to think about, debate, and look forward to.

I like that the class is flavorful, and that the prereqs aren't TOO crippling, and I like that someone with this line will knock the hell out of the Pit Fiend, Sulu, orthons and bearded devils, but it applies to so little of the content in the game until you hit the Vale. Renders, Reavers and Flensers in CO6 and Threnal are the only evil outsiders that spring to mind that early in the game.

And someone asked about it being +4 attack and +4d6 damage, and whether that was the same as greater bane exactly. No, greater bane would also add +4 damage (+4d6+4), but that's a minor issue.

I'm really just hoping that the Defender of Siberys is totally awesome.

[marcosoneghett]

Please;

To make the Paladin more on par with other dps classes please extend this enhancement. As stated earlier by my fellow players, make it good for ALL evil outsiders at 6, Chaotic at 12, and the uber bonus can stay the same at 18.

Also Tolero, do you have anything planned for Undead? I still think this line would be better IF you could include undead on the bonus. This would make more sense also, thematically speaking.

[The_Ick]

Please;
Also Tolero, do you have anything planned for Undead? I still think this line would be better IF you could include undead on the bonus. This would make more sense also, thematically speaking.

I like the idea of adding undead to the effected bad guys. Most of mod8+ is Evil Outsiders so i will be fairly effective, but not so much at the lower leverls. I think changing it so it is Evil Outsiders & UNDEAD keeps with the overall theme of the enhancement line and makes this useful at lower levels.

I think adding undead to this effect would really go a long way towards making this a great line for Pallys all the way from 1 to 20. Useful at all levels, not just endgame.

[sephiroth1084]

I like the idea of adding undead to the effected bad guys. Most of mod8+ is Evil Outsiders so i will be fairly effective, but not so much at the lower leverls. I think changing it so it is Evil Outsiders & UNDEAD keeps with the overall theme of the enhancement line and makes this useful at lower levels.

I think adding undead to this effect would really go a long way towards making this a great line for Pallys all the way from 1 to 20. Useful at all levels, not just endgame.

That would really step on the toes of The Hunter of the Dead PrE the paladins are also getting.

[kingfisher]

I think adding undead to this effect would really go a long way towards making this a great line for Pallys all the way from 1 to 20. Useful at all levels, not just endgame.

you can always take HOTD first and then respec into KOTC at higher lvls

[frugal_gourmet]

I think they should be given "Mettle".

[maddmatt70]

Or you could just build a Ranger, get evil outsiders as a favored enemy, plus ram's might, free TWF and bow feats, and evasion all included for one low low price of 0.



Kinda weak to me....

The ranger will not do as much dps against evil outsiders as the paladin. Do the math. Since the next raid boss will likely be an evil outsider and perhaps most of the mobs will be evil outsiders - paladins could be very sought after next mod.

[Josh]

This is a good start (and can we get tier III dropped to lvl 16? ). In addition to the attack bonus, I'd like to see some sort of an AC bonus also...perhaps something like +1, +2, +3 per tier. That would be an awesome edition, and put this PrE over the top I think.

Also suggest removing the fear bonus thing. It's pretty weaksauce for endgame content. How about replacing it with a sacred bonus to saves against evil outsiders? Or, adding the "mettle" effect to the paladin's aura so everyone gets it. That would be cool indeed. If all goes well I'll be spec'ing Callisto for this.

[Josh]

I think they should be given "Mettle".

I could get behind this suggestion. Good idea.

[Aesop]

Mettle wouldn't be bad.

Negating damage from Inflict Spells on a successful Save

and maybe from Disintegrate PK and FoD

arethere any other Will/Fort save for partial effects?

Aesop

[maddmatt70]

I am happy about the dps bump, but the more I look at this prc the more I am disappointed the reason is the extremely heavy poor action points cost. I have calculated that I would have to pick up 20 action points to get this prestige class and this doesn't count the enhancements that I have such as extra smite II and divine might 1. One enhancement that I don't have because (it is for 15th level paladins) that I was planning to get when the cap goes up was divine might 3 which cost 3 action points so I was hoping that I wouldn't have to spend any more then 11 action points on enhancements I didn't already have but 20 is silly. It is one thing to have some stringent requirements that have some flavor in them, but another to hamstring paladins.

Break down of enhancements with analysis:
1 action point: Paladin Courage of Good. Almost no paladins have this. + to fear aura.
1 action point: Paladin Energy of Templar 1. Some paladins have this one, but not many. +20 sp.
2 action point: Paladin Extra Smite II. Almost all paladins have this one.
1 action point: choice of divine sacrifice, exalted smite, divine might. Almost all paladins have this one.
4 action point: Paladin Knight of Chalice. No paladins have this one.
2 action point: Paladin Knight of Chalice II. No paladins have this one.
2 action point: Paladin Courage of Good II. Almost no paladins have this. +to fear aura.
2 action point: Paladin Energy of the Templar 2. Almost no paladins have this. +40 sp.
2 action point: Paladin Knight of the Chalice III. No paladins have this one.
6 action point: Any paladin faith enhancement II. The first tier cost 2 and the second tier 4. Some paladins have these.

Total action point cost: 23

The courage of good enhancements are purely flavor and to give this pre some requirements, but some of the others such as energy of the templar have little to do with the flavor of the prc. My recommendation is to remove both energy of the templars from the requirements and to change the paladin faith enhancement requirement from 2 to 1.

[Holgar]

Just to clarify:

A Faith II enhancement = Silver Flame Exorcism, Unyielding Sovereignty, etc.?

Holgar

[Aesop]

Just to clarify:

A Faith II enhancement = Silver Flame Exorcism, Unyielding Sovereignty, etc.?

Holgar

yep

[query]

feindish count for more of those outsiders not lawful?

[Aesop]

feindish count for more of those outsiders not lawful?

Mephits
Alignment: Usually neutral


Fiendish critters
Alignment: Always evil (any)
Size and Type: Animals or vermin with this
template become magical beasts, but otherwise
the creature type is unchanged. Size is
unchanged. Fiendish creatures encountered
on the Material Plane have the extraplanar
subtype.

[EinarMal]

The ranger will not do as much dps against evil outsiders as the paladin. Do the math. Since the next raid boss will likely be an evil outsider and perhaps most of the mobs will be evil outsiders - paladins could be very sought after next mod.

Assuming said Paladin chooses TWF feats (rare) and spends all the required AP to get this then it's true they will be better against one type of mob.

Still better off making a TWF Ranger with Evasion plus good situational bow use. I suppose if you only care about the latest raid in the current Mod you might be better off, for the other 99.9% of the game not so much.

I am sorry but this is way too narrow, so you get to be great for one Mod and a dozen or so quests. At best it is something you might swap in/out occasionally as you level.

[frugal_gourmet]

I suppose if you only care about the latest raid in the current Mod you might be better off, for the other 99.9% of the game not so much.

Also, the only two raids in the game that are even remotely difficult.

[EinarMal]

Also, the only two raids in the game that are even remotely difficult.

Yeah for now, we don't even know how much of a mix of mobs will be in the next raid(s) etc... I mean it adds some flavor to the class I suppose.

The cost should be reduced at the minimum if that is all it is going to do.

I guess I prefer the prestige class perspective where you don't switch back and forth. To me it is bothersome that for level 1-14 it is barely usable, and the at 15 it's good? That just seems poorly balanced to me, I guess if you are a power gamer that gets to cap in a few weeks it doesn't matter but I don't play nearly that much and I don't like that design personally.

[frugal_gourmet]

Yeah for now, we don't even know how much of a mix of mobs will be in the next raid(s) etc... I mean it adds some flavor to the class I suppose.

The cost should be reduced at the minimum if that is all it is going to do.

Yeah, I'm not disagreeing so much as just saying "Welp. It's better than... nothing... maybe?"

The only times in the game when a class is discrimated against anyway (I feel at least) is the really hard end game content. To me, being "uber" doesn't really matter when the quest is easy anyway.

I guess, though, the latest mod might not be Paladin friendly.

[EinarMal]

Yeah, I'm not disagreeing so much as just saying "Welp. It's better than... nothing... maybe?"

The only times in the game when a class is discrimated against anyway (I feel at least) is the really hard end game content. To me, being "uber" doesn't really matter when the quest is easy anyway.

I guess, though, the latest mod might not be Paladin friendly.

Yeah, it will be good I agree if Pallies are included more in raids no argument there. I don't like though that you would need to switch between this and hunter of the dead as you level and then maybe back to something else or neither each Mod. That to me isn't the flavor of a prestige class. It is supposed to be part of the design of the build not switched each Mod depending on what you are fighting.