Paladin: Knight of the Chalice (Preview)

[Angelus_dead]

what looks to be basically useless fear-save-increases to the party (unless this changes to immunity at tier 3, its ineffectual)

Even if it does give full immunity, it's still mostly ineffectual, because characters of level 18+ will ALWAYS have Greater Heroism unless the enemy is dispelling, or they were just recently been raised from death.

[Junts]

Even if it does give full immunity, it's still mostly ineffectual, because characters of level 18+ will ALWAYS have Greater Heroism unless the enemy is dispelling, or they were just recently been raised from death.

Yes.

as i said, fear immunity would be useful in one raid - the hound of xoriat, where it saves the feared-cleric problem when someone is ******** and stands within 2 bodylengths of xyzzy to see a little dog and gets the bees.


thats all that even immunity would do in practice.

personally, I want to add that knights of the chalice get intimidate as a class skill and that an intim bonus vs evil outsiders would not be inappropriate for this prestige class, or an added affect to intimidate (in fact, borror's shaken on intim idea would be an outstanding way to give this prestige class a little more oomph), though I am obviously quite biased as an intim pally hybrid.

[Junts]

Yeah, tell me about it. That Faith II prereq really knocked the cream out of my cupcake.

from my post I can see how I can get this prestige enhancement and how i would overall be better off that way, though dropping a toughness enhancement is basically against my religion.

right now in minos legens, standing 457 with 10 more shroud hp to come (saturday is run 21), and 16 if a +3 con tome ever happens, minus 18 since I'm usually in my intimidate helm (eg, 439)

i coudl afford, even now, to drop paladin toughness 4, though I still think its sacreligious.

having 450 hp and 70 ac and functional dps was this toon's goal, and it's in sight right now :\


i want to add that having a same ap cost as the other enhancements makes this one look unfinished; it simply lacks the design time that plainly went into hte others (its taken directly from the sourcebook, unlike the others, and gives far less effects and bonuses, though one of those bonuses is incredible)

[QuantumFX]

While the Paladin Courage of Good fits more themeatically, Paladin Resistance of Good would make more sense to make it an attractive PrE.

Also changing Tier III to Paladin Knight of the Chalice II, and any one of: Paladin Divine Sacrifice II-III, Paladin Divine Might II-III, Paladin Exalted Smite II-III, or Paladin Faith II would be better.

[Junts]

While the Paladin Courage of Good fits more themeatically, Paladin Resistance of Good would make more sense to make it an attractive PrE.

Also changing Tier III to Paladin Knight of the Chalice II, and any one of: Paladin Divine Sacrifice II-III, Paladin Divine Might II-III, Paladin Exalted Smite II-III, or Paladin Faith II would be better.

a ton better, and more in theme with the others where there are several options

[Aesop]

While the Paladin Courage of Good fits more themeatically, Paladin Resistance of Good would make more sense to make it an attractive PrE.

Also changing Tier III to Paladin Knight of the Chalice II, and any one of: Paladin Divine Sacrifice II-III, Paladin Divine Might II-III, Paladin Exalted Smite II-III, or Paladin Faith II would be better.

can't say I disagree with the logic but I think they were deliberatly using ones that didn't fit in easily to make choices hard... Not sure if its a good thing or bad... then again I supoport a total Enhancement System overhaul


Aesop

[Geonis]

Who wants a free Greater Evil Outsider Bane added to all of their weapons? What if I told you that it stacks with an actual Greater Evil Outsider Bane enchantment?

I don't know if I'd call 20 APs I wouldn't otherwise use, "free".


Paladin Knight of the Chalice I
Cost: 4 Action Points

Paladin Knight of the Chalice II
Cost: 2 Action Points

Paladin Knight of the Chalice III
Cost: 2 Action Points

Paladin Courage of Good II (3 APs)

Paladin Energy of the Templar II (3 APs)

Paladin Faith II enhancement (6 APs)


4+2+2+3+3+6=20

Again, not what I would call free.

Either lighten up the prereqs, make them the more commonly used enhancements, or add some more power to the PrE.

As it is, this is the PrE I was building my current Pally for, and now I doubt I will be taking it (for 20 APs).

[EinarMal]

Or you could just build a Ranger, get evil outsiders as a favored enemy, plus ram's might, free TWF and bow feats, and evasion all included for one low low price of 0.



Kinda weak to me....

[Jadeare]

Hey, quick question. Will the +4 at tier three be attack only, or damage as well?

Read like attack only, not sure but i thought GB was like an enhancement increase on the weapon of +4 against selected foe. I.E. +5 SS of GEOB is like a +9 SS against Evil Outsiders.

So, is this:

+4 attack and damage

or

+4 attack only, it isnt exactly the same as Greater banes

or

+4 attack only, greater banes only apply a bonus to attack rolls, not damage.

Please not this is in relation to tier 3, i have excluded the 4d6 on purpose.

[SteeleTrueheart]

+4 attack only, greater banes only apply a bonus to attack rolls, not damage.

This is how banes work.

even though you dont want to talk about the +4d6 damage, note that it will give you a minimum of 4 damage...

[Solmage]

*steps on some infernal roaches* They're everywhere I tell ya!

Those demon roaches are a real problem! We need to start laying down traps for them! Here are some diagrams: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0095.html

[SteeleTrueheart]

Tier 3 should grant a fear immunity aura, as others have said.

Other than that, I think this is perfect. No insane feat requirements, minimal useless enhancement requirements, and not too overpowered.

Did the devs learn something about overpowering classes or something?

For those wanting more power.... if they give more, it will cost more in prereqs.

Personally it will cost me 6AP more than I would normally spend (Energy of the Templar and Courage of Good)

Since in Mod 9 we will be getting 16 more AP for levels 17-20 that means I will be spending 8 on this enhancement and 6 on those prereqs I dont have... leaving me with 2AP left. Capstone enhancements cost 2AP.... Hmmm guess I can't afford Divine Might IV now.... oh well, can't have everything!

EDIT: Almost no clickies = THANK YOU ELADRIN!

[kingfisher]

the 12p/6r/2m or ro will be cool with the first 2 tiers of this plus temp I (unless they weaken temp I)

[Balkas]

the 12p/6r/2m or ro will be cool with the first 2 tiers of this plus temp I (unless they weaken temp I)

Methinks people may just forego the evasion and go 14 Paladin/6 Ranger so they can have Zeal + Tempest.

[nbhs275]

Methinks people may just forego the evasion and go 14 Paladin/6 Ranger so they can have Zeal + Tempest.

ding ding ding! winner!

The third tier of this puppy really needs something to make people go "OOOH" and AAHH" because right now its nothing that is simply a need.

[kingfisher]

Methinks people may just forego the evasion and go 14 Paladin/6 Ranger so they can have Zeal + Tempest.

its only a partial stack right? the evasion and either utility/dps or feats/ac will be worth the speed/dps loss imo

[Balkas]

its only a partial stack right? the evasion and either utility/dps or feats/ac will be worth the speed/dps loss imo

They are different types of bonuses, so I'm fairly certain they stack completely.

[SteeleTrueheart]

ding ding ding! winner!

The third tier of this puppy really needs something to make people go "OOOH" and AAHH" because right now its nothing that is simply a need.

No I think the capstone needs to be more like: "Hmm? is evasion really worth it? Hmm?

[Jadeare]

This is how banes work.

even though you dont want to talk about the +4d6 damage, note that it will give you a minimum of 4 damage...

Thanks for the info.

The reason i didn't mention the 4d6 is because i am interested in the crits. The 4d6 won't multiply.

Yes i understand that the 4d6 is as much as i am likely to get from the extra 4 damage on a crit anyway.

While many of the paladins are focused on this thread id like to ask a question of you.

What is the most damage you have done on a crit, with an exalted smite, with a one handed weapon?

Weapon damage only, no maiming or burst.

[Junts]

paladins cap out around 610 raw damage - thats a pick with exalted 2, level 16 and assorted basis damage - those smites add 55 to base, so you need to be hitting for about 45 with hte ordinary pick attack to hit 600 - then crit for 6x mult.

thats the max realistic - i know a guy who's paladin uses a earthgrab heavy pick - melee to grab, smite, divine sac (5x mult), move on