Where PrEs "drop the ball" compared to PrCs

[Gol]

I started this in another thread, but thought it deserved it's own post in the Dev discussion.

I believe PrEs drop the ball in 2 general areas. Qualifications for Entry and Class versus Role.

1. Qualifications for Entry
D&D Prestige Classes rarely (if ever) require X levels of Y base class. This could only have been a very intentional design. Instead, they required BAB, skills, feats, and/or generic "spellcasting" of a type. As such, it didn't matter how you got into the prestige classes because there were no class requirements.

So, for most melee/tank-oriented PrCs, you need a certain BAB score and certain feats. Barbarians, Rangers, Fighters, and Paladins were all viable options to get to most melee type prestige classes. Once you were in the Prestige Class, things looked relatively equal. You ceased to level in your specific base class but became more like the eventual result of the Prestige Class. The point being that it didn't matter what base class you started off in. You could even start as a Cleric, Rogue, or Wizard and eventually qualify.

This leads into problem number 2. Class versus Role.

2. Class versus Role
D&D prestige classes were all about the Role and function, not the class itself. There are many PrCs that don't translate to PrEs very well because you simply can't tie them to a class - they're tied to a ROLE. Take Eldritch Knight for example. What's the role? An arcane spell slinging melee type. Spell Slinging? Does that mean Wizard, Sorcerer, or Bard? Does melee mean Fighter, Ranger, Barbarian, or Paladin? The answer is yes - it can mean all of those. Another is the Sacred Fist. Divine spellcasting on a fist-fighting melee. Monk by definition? Absolutely not. A monk/cleric would qualify, as would a pure class Druid, Ranger or Paladin that took the right feats. It's completely impossible to peg many PrCs to a specific Class even though the Role is very well defined.

DDO has, in effect, pegged Roles TO Classes with the Prestige Enhancement System. Specifically, viable fighting types. If you want to fight, you're a Ranger/Fighter/Barbarian/Paladin, and even the Paladin in that group is highly suspect. D&D made no such requirements or pegs. Anybody was a viable melee combatant if built properly (feats, PrCs, equipment, etc).

The biggest losers here are hyrbrid builds. And by that, I mean anything that typically does X, but is capable of doing Y very very well. Because Turbine has chosen to only implement PrEs that offer a 1 (or sometimes 2) dimentional aspect of a base class, anything not conforming to Turbine's preconieved notions of what that class is meant to do is essentially non-viable in endgame scenarios.

Earlier (up to level 9 or 10) in the leveling cycle, these non-standard builds work fairly well as the gap between different classes isn't nearly as noticable. Same is true for PnP. However, in PnP you can actually pick up the Prestige Class made for your Role. In DDO, you're stuck to a base class or two, with little chance of ever being able to fullfill that desired Roll.


So, what to do to fix it...

1) Prestige Enhancements need to be less tied to the base classes. Make the requirements for taking them steeper if need be, but there's no reason a Fighter shouldn't be allowed to go Tempest, and no reason a Ranger shouldn't be allowed to go Kensai. In a lot of ways, this was already partially done for Arcane Archer (all Elves can take it) and the Defender (all dwarves can take it) prestige Enhancements, but my point is that if you take the right feats or invest in the right skills and stats, all Prestige Enhancements should be open to all characters if the have the appropriate feats and abilities. This was how it was done in PnP and how it should be done in DDO.

2) Since all PrEs would then fall under the same category, limit us to 2 or 3 of them per character (heck, 2 for non-humans and 3 for humans would work too). Right now, you can only take 1 class specialty for each base class you have trained. Obviously, if PrEs aren't tied to the classes there needs to be some other way to restrict how many you take. Fix it at 2 or 3. Or 1 for that matter, as long as all PrEs are available to all characters. Heck, if some combos are game breaking, have those specific PrEs be exclusive to one another. So, if you were a melee, for example, anybody with TWF could take Tempest. After all, that's what the original prestige class was all about, right? Tempest was all about TWF and has little or nothing to do with being a Ranger.

3) The problem so far is that there's little incentive to stay pure class. That's also a problem in P&P - there's rarely ever an incentive to stay pure class. So, make pure-class-only enhancements. For example, make an enhancement only available to pure class clerics that gives a stacking +2% healing per level that stacks with the traditional Cleric Life Magic. A pure Fighter enhancement for "+1 attack". A pure Wizard enhancement of "+10 SP/level". You get the picture. It's just extra incentive to stay pure class, making it cost them more than the "1 level" they lose from their primary class.


So what's the benefit? Well, the biggest benefit, really, is MORE CHOICES. More ways to build a TWF monster if that's your thing. More ways to actually specialize that wizard than the base wizard/sorc enhancements. More ways to build that defensive behomoth you've always wanted to. More things to do with that old gimp character of yours that doesn't qualify for the current PrEs because of class level splits or something.

The other benefit that comes to mind is that it allows for easier addition of PrEs down the road. You don't have to tie them to base classes and say "hey look, this PrE is for Rogues, so we need to balance that with another for Paladins", etc. If that 15/1 fighter/wizard wants to take a PrE that lets him cast spells better, fine, so be it. There's nothing stopping him from doing it in PnP, and nothing stopping them from making whatever build they want to.

[Samadhi]

Well put

[Aerendil]

Yep, I raised this question a little while back (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=160714), and it came up again in the Ranger forum yesterday.

No reason why we can't see Monk/Kensai, or Fighter/Tempests, or Ranger/Assassins, for example.
Tieing PrEs to specific classes makes sense in some aspects, but you also tend to segregate the classes by doing so.

Especially with the tiered system, which requires up to *18* levels of a class to see the full benefits, it pretty much negates multiclassing.
I think the most levels in a PrC was 10, was it not? And most were in the 3-5 level range.
Tempest, for example, was only 3 levels. So you could easily have a level 17 Fighter / 3 Tempest, or even a 12 Ranger / 5 Fighter / 3 Tempest. Both were perfectly viable.
In DDO, however, if you want Tempest III, you *HAVE* to be an 18 Ranger, which leaves you a mere 2 levels of something else to play with.

Not a lot of customization choices there, really, despite classes in DDO having a lot more flavor via enhancements than the PnP counterparts.

Not sure if this can be overcome at all, but it's something that has been on my wish list since PrEs started, and something that continues to remain there.

*fingers crossed*

[SableShadow]

Very well written.

[Mindspat]

The biggest losers here are hyrbrid builds.

DDO is not PnP and as the core system tells you it's the DM's duty to adjust the game to ensure it plays well. The underlying factor here is gameplay.

Seems right to me that every fotm build for mid to lower levels isn't going to be as good or provide the same functionality later in their careers.

[Stealthbr]

I definetly agree with you. This change would allow for huge amounts of player customization.

[Borror0]

2) Since all PrEs would then fall under the same category, limit us to 2 or 3 of them per character (heck, 2 for non-humans and 3 for humans would work too).

Personally, what I had in mind was to sort of stay in the same system for that part.

• A level 18 character could take up to tier III in one PrE.
• A level 12/6 character could take up to tier II in one PrE and up to tier I in another one.
• A level 6/6/6 character could take up to tier I in three different PrE.

PrE would, however, not class specific. This means that a 12 fighter/6 rogue could be a Frenzied Berserker II/Tempest I if he desires so.

This encourages going pure a little more. It is a less drastic change compared to what you suggested, which means PrE's will require less modification to be balanced. Probably lower tiers might require some buffage or higher tier some nerfing, but it's still less of a mess to balance. Finally, it creates options as much as what you suggested, if not more.

[Gol]

I also wanted to demonstrate a proposed "Eldritch Knight" prestige enhancement.

Eldritch Knight I
Available to: Wizard 4, Sorc 4, Bard 4
Requirements: 16 APs spent, All Martial Weapon proficiencies, and 1 of <pick a list of melee-type-feats here>
Cost: 2 AP
Benefit: +1 BAB, -20 SP

Eldritch Knight II
Available to: Wizard 7, Sorc 7, Bard 8
Requirements: Eldritch Knight I, 24 APs spent
Cost: 2 AP
Benefit: +1 BAB, -20 SP

Eldritch Knight III
Available to: Wizard 10, Sorc 10, Bard 12
Requirements: Eldritch Knight II, 32 APs spent
Cost: 2 AP
Benefit: +1 BAB, -20 SP

Eldritch Knight IV
Available to: Wizard 13, Sorc 13, Bard 16
Requirements: Eldritch Knight III, 40 APs spent
Cost: 2 AP
Benefit: +1 BAB, -20 SP

Eldritch Knight V
Available to: Wizard 16, Sorc 16
Requirements: Eldritch Knight IV, 48 APs spent
Cost: 2 AP
Benefit: +1 BAB, -20 SP

All benefits cumulative, of course.

[Gol]

Personally, what I had in mind was to sort of stay in the same system for that part.

• A level 18 character could take up to tier III in one PrE.
• A level 12/6 character could take up to tier II in one PrE and up to tier I in another one.
• A level 6/6/6 character could take up to tier I in three different PrE.

PrE would, however, not class specific. This means that a 12 fighter/6 rogue could be a Frenzied Berserker II/Tempest I if he desires so.

This encourages going pure a little more. It is a less drastic change compared to what you suggested, which means PrE's will require less modification to be balanced. Probably lower tiers might require some buffage or higher tier some nerfing, but it's still less of a mess to balance. Finally, it creates options as much as what you suggested, if not more.

The problem that strikes me most immediately is that would peg all PrEs into exactly 3 tier 6/12/18 systems. That aside, I still don't see any reason to tie it to class levels. D&D has never been about "what class are you" but more "what do you do".

[Zenix_Leviticus]

Well written, nicely said, and I agree.

[Borror0]

D&D has never been about "what class are you" but more "what do you do".

Nor is my suggestion. It's about "How did you multiclass yourself".

It creates reasons to multiclass actually.

[Aerendil]

And either suggestion (Gol or Borror's) could work.

Borr's is a little more DDO dev-friendly, while Gol's seems more true to PnP.
But either way allows for more versatility.

Truth be told, though, how difficult would it be to alter the prereqs for these?
PnP Assassin, for example, only required skill levels in Disguise, Hide, and Move Silently. Oh, and an Evil alignment - but that's easily ignored in DDO
Tempest requires the TWF chain of feats, plus Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack - so that one is quite exclusive already!

[Gol]

The only problem with requiring skills for PrEs is the respec issue. Skills in DDO are all sorts of out of whack and useless, and I think that requiring skills for PrEs is a slippery slope if nothing is done to address our ability to re-spec skill points.

[Aerendil]

The only problem with requiring skills for PrEs is the respec issue. Skills in DDO are all sorts of out of whack and useless, and I think that requiring skills for PrEs is a slippery slope if nothing is done to address our ability to re-spec skill points.

People are already crying for full respecs, and to be honest, fully deserve it.

*IF* PrEs were changed to be more inline with this thread's ideas, Turbine would have to be truly soulless to not implement some means of a full respec.

But still, using your scenerio Gol, it would be the only way to properly implement PrCs into DDO.
Assassin was just one example, but I can see various other classes requiring skill ranks to get in (i.e. Virtuoso would be another example, requiring <insert number here> ranks in Perform);

[Borror0]

I think that requiring skills for PrEs is a slippery slope if nothing is done to address our ability to re-spec skill points.

True, but I think we will agree that a skill respec should be implemented.

Skill ranks would actually be a cool prereq.

[SableShadow]

True, but I think we will agree that a skill respec should be implemented.

Skill ranks would actually be a cool prereq.

I think it would be very cool to watch a wizard sneak up to and assassinate mobs to save sp for named fights.

[Stealthbr]

If only my Spellsword could be a Frenzied Barbarian or a Kensai =(
I wish, I wish..

[Tin_Dragon]

Agreed, and I dont like it, the old system of enhancments was fine, and we as a whole would have been better served with real PrCs.

I dont like that I am FORCED to play a ranger, or dip 6 levels to be a "tempest" one of my favorite PnP was a half orc Fighter gone to Tempest PrC.

Half orcs dont make the best Rangers for thier stat sets, yet with the ftr feats and the PrC prereqs, it can be done well. Just one example.

Also, at this time, there is No Mystic Theurge, which would be GREAT, I dont see how they could ever accomplish this with the currect Enhance set up. And this PrC is a Core in the DMG. But hey, why should we bring up D&D rules?

from another thread...

and on a side note, imagine a DDO 2 rogue, MT build mmmmmmmmmm

[Aerendil]

Skill ranks would actually be a cool prereq.

And actually far more accurate and realistic (yes, I realise I'm using the word "realistic" to describe a video game...).

Assassin PrE, for example, requires Assassin Hide II and Move Silently II, of which there are no prereqs.
So, in theory, you *could* qualify for Assasin in DDO with... 3 ranks in Hide/Move Silently. How sad is that

But if they changed it to a minimum hide / move silently of, say, 10, that would make much more sense.

A similar argument could be made for Ranger's Deepwood Sniper (what's more important - having a high Spot skill, or having Ranger Spot II taken?)

Because, let's be honest here, enhancement skill boosts only exist as PrE prereqs for the most part.
It's the real skill ranks that make or break a build.

*edit* - in fact, if they removed skill increases for the most part in Enhancement lines, I don't think I'd be overly fussed, to be honest. Let us spend those points on other things.
Because, with +15 rank items ingame, do we really need an extra 1-3 points in a skill?!?

[EinarMal]

(From a largely ignored former post)

Overview:
One of the classic D&D figures is the spell sword, the original elf class, and the Eldritch knight. Those that mix spells and combat together. They are neither as powerful as a fighter in melee, nor as good at spell casting as a pure caster but a hybrid between the two.

This is a prestige class that tries to mimic the Eldritch Knight. The Eldritch Knight is a prestige class that grants +1 caster progression (except for the first level), and uses a d6 as hit points per level. So the goal is to make a DDO character like Wizard 18/Fighter 2 more like Eldritch Knight 10/Fighter 1/Wizard 9.

The Eldritch Knight 10/Fighter 1/Wizard 9 ends up with +15 BAB, 20 additional hit points and casts like a level 18 wizard in exchange for losing some of the wizard bonus feats and two caster levels.

The balance compared to a fighter is less hit points, and many fewer feats, versus the pure caster the loss of two spell caster levels and 3 feats for more combat orientation.

Eldritch Knight I (Cost 4 AP)

Description:
Grants +20 spell points, +5 hit points, and +1 BAB

Requirements:
Wizard or Sorc 6
One of Paladin Divine Grace or Fighter Strength I
One of Wizard Concentration II or Sorcerer Concentration II
One of Wizard Improved Spell Penetration I or Sorcerer Improved Spell Penetration I

Eldritch Knight II (Cost 2 AP)

Description:
Grants an additional +30 spell points, +5 hit points and +2 BAB

Requirements:
Wizard or Sorc 12
Eldritch Knight I
One of Wizard Concentration III or Sorcerer Concentration III
One of Wizard Improved Spell Penetration II or Sorcerer Improved Spell Penetration II

Eldritch Knight III (Cost 2 AP)

Description:
Grants an additional +30 spell points, +10 hit points and +1 BAB

Requirements:
Wizard or Sorc 18
Eldritch Knight II
One of Wizard Concentration IV or Sorcerer Concentration IV
One of Wizard Improved Spell Penetration III or Sorcerer Improved Spell Penetration III

Balances:
The total bonus is +80 spell points, +20 hit points, and +4 BAB. This lines up well with the original goal of making a prestige class mimicking the Eldritch Knight.

By forcing at least 2 levels of a full BAB class you lose casting power significantly over a pure caster. As a trade you gain BAB and some casting power back compared to regular multi-classing. You also have to take some enhancements you probably otherwise would not.

New Tech:
The only new technology is to allow granted feats (the BAB increase) to qualify you for regular feats. To prevent abuse you cannot re-spec feats without first removing the prestige enhancement.