Air Elementals

[Talon_Moonshadow]

I guess I'm slow. Cause I am just now realising what some people complained about months ago.

I save (SAVE......SAVE SAVE SAVE!) against an Air elementals attacks...knockdowns...everything! And still get thrown across the room!

Uhmm......why?

Having a high save DC is one thing. Saving and still being affected is another.

This was not always true. I used to stnd up (literally) to the Air Eliies in the Desert quite often.

Please fix this.

[Beherit_Baphomar]

There is nothing to 'fix'.

They are working as intended.

According to Turbine/DDO.

[wamjratl1]

I think it's a seperate attack for which there is no save... I'll try to find the thread.

*EDIT* Not a seperate attack. They just suck (or blow, actually heh). Here's a thread discussing the issue.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

There is nothing to 'fix'.

They are working as intended.

According to Turbine/DDO.

If that's true then the saving throw needs to go away.

My main is a Ranger, and my number two is a Wiz........I just didn't melee them and I thought other's complaints were unjustified.

But my Super Saving Pal is very annoyed about seeing "save" messages that have no meaning.

Oh , and back in the day, I know I stood inside that one in the desert gnoll village with no problem. I seldom go there now with Talonkage, so I kinda assumed the ones in the Vale were just more powerful.....high DC for saving.

But My Pal has much better saves, and evasion......and I think there has definately been a change along the way.

I used to think it was just the low saving guys that had the issue.....or that the elder ellies were stronger.

But, that doesn't seem to be the case.

Sry, I don't do scientific experiments, so my impressions are sometimes way off.

[Talcyndl]

If that's true then the saving throw needs to go away.

My main is a Ranger, and my number two is a Wiz........I just didn't melee them and I thought other's complaints were unjustified.

But my Super Saving Pal is very annoyed about seeing "save" messages that have no meaning.

I may be wrong, but you could be saving against the electrical attack. Or against the knockdown (as opposed to the throw across the room) attack.

[The_Phenx]

Its save VS. Knockdown.

The throw attack has no save.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against a monster that needs special tactics to overcome. I have nothing against aq monster that cannot be meleed effectively. (although it further justifies my complaints about fixing ranged combat for non-ranged specced chars.)

But why have a save that doesn't do anything?

One way or another it is broke.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Its save VS. Knockdown.

The throw attack has no save.

So I should be thrown and land standing up!

[The_Phenx]

So I should be thrown and land standing up!

If you save yes you should.. there may be multiple saves involved in the process.

My acrobat (immune to knockdown) flies and lands on his feet and is right back in the mix.

My fighter if he saves lands on his feet, if not does the lay down while a whirlwind throws me everywhere repeatedly thing.

[Lillitheris]

As far as I know, Air Elementals have 4 attacks.

1. Ball Lightning
2. Knockdown (Str check to resist, balance to get back up)
3. Whirlwind (damage on a failed Reflex save)
4. The Mysterious throw-you-around-attack (no save, simultaneous with Knockdown)

Load of **** if you ask me.

[Leyoni]

There is nothing to 'fix'.

They are working as intended.

According to Turbine/DDO.

Written evidence of this?

The inability to withstand the knocked around effect means that there is no reliable way to melee air elementals. In Reaver the problem is compounded by the levitation effect so that you can avoid being knocked down but still be tossed across the room to find yourself levitated into the spike traps on the ceiling.

That means the preferred method for running Reaver now is two or three tanks able to annoy the Reaver until the globes are lit (with huge DPS to pull aggro off the casters for when he gets into their firewalls), two or three clerics to make sure everyone stays healthy, and the rest of the group firewalling wizards and sorcerers. Bards and rogues are optional although a rogue that can tank works well and a bard that likes to disco can sometimes slow the air elementals enough to let firewalls work a bit more effectively.

The quest is just annoying as it is currently -- not unbeatable, just annoying and not fun. Any monster that has an attack for which there is no save and no method for avoidance is overpowered. Freedom of movement seems like a reasonable way to overcome the problem as does providing a reasonable saving throw.

As it is now the only real option is magic or ranged weapons. Ranged weapons don't work real well when the weapons are very low DPS and relatively low attack rates. And, they work even less well when there is insufficient space to maneuver in order to avoid the elemental's attacks. That leaves magic as the only reliable solution.

Talon Moonshadow has a legitimate point: "Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against a monster that needs special tactics to overcome. I have nothing against a monster that cannot be meleed effectively. (although it further justifies my complaints about fixing ranged combat for non-ranged specced chars.)

But why have a save that doesn't do anything?

One way or another it is broke."

[Impaqt]

Yeah, AIr ele "Throw you around" attack really sucks..... Especially in SoS where they can toss you off the tower even though you made your save..... Hate it...

Staying on your feet is nice, but hardly compensation for the No Save tossing.....

[Talon_Moonshadow]

As far as I know, Air Elementals have 4 attacks.

1. Ball Lightning
2. Knockdown (Str check to resist, balance to get back up)
3. Whirlwind (damage on a failed Reflex save)
4. The Mysterious throw-you-around-attack (no save, simultaneous with Knockdown)

Load of **** if you ask me.

Ok, just did some experiments in the desert.

I know I used to be able to stand inside that guy, but now I cannot.

But you are correct about their attacks and what I saw in my comabt log.
Knockdown gets two saves. Mine were dex saves, so it is prob str or dex which ever is higher.......only counts ability modifyer.....so probably higher HD elementals are just too strong for us to resist....it's why raging barbs get knocked on their butts.

I did in fact get thrown many times and land on my feet. No mention in combat log about this. But you touch em, you get thrown.....

Well, it didn't used to be like this. And I'm still not convinced other elementals are not broke.....since I'm sure I've seen knockdown save and still landed on my butt......but maybe not. /sigh

[Angelus_dead]

Knockdown gets two saves. Mine were dex saves, so it is prob str or dex which ever is higher.......only counts ability modifyer.....so probably higher HD elementals are just too strong for us to resist....it's why raging barbs get knocked on their butts.

Nope, all elementals have the same knockdown strength, and all of them are too powerful for even a barbarian to really withstand. The knockdown DC is 20, which means a character with str or dex equal to 30 will fail 50% of the time. Str/dex = 40 will fail 25% of the time, and str of 50 or greater fails 5% of the time.

Even if you only fail the knockdown on a natural 1, the elemental still attacks fast enough so that it'll have more than 20 attempts to overbear you before you could kill it in melee.

[cforce]

Wait, there are people who get thrown and land on their *feet*? I thought the "automatic knockdown even if you save, ha ha" behavior was the same bug for everybody.

Specifically, my combat log will tell me I successfully save vs. Knockdown. But, I have always, 100% always, ended up on my hindquarters, even though my combat log says I saved.

Is it possible for those of us who always get knocked down, even when the combat log says you save, to compare notes with those of you who sometimes get thrown but land on your feet? If we can get a reproducible bug report out of this, I'd be stoked.

Possible salient things about my main character: WF, Fighter 10/Pally 4/Rogue 2, STR 30, DEX 22, Reflex 26-ish unbuffed, Mithral Body, Mithral Tower Shield, CE turned on almost all the time.

Folks who sometimes land standing up, how are you different?