Priority: Greensteel Deconstruction

[Crarites]

If by de-construct you mean re-craft 1 greensteel item/weapon into another green steel item/weapon maintaining the same properties then I agree with the op.

If you mean though that i take a greensteel weapon fully enchanted pop it into an alter and out falls the base ingredients then i'm against it.

I would also like to see added the ability to overwrite a power similar to DT armor.

[Beherit_Baphomar]

Like Kistilan said a little forthought, and here's my input if you built a flavor of the month toon, or flavor of the month green steel then you deserve to be stuck with a that decision, and if you have multiple tier III items then I have no sympathy because you're probably one of those elitist snobs that can just buy your ingredients with plat and items because you spend 80+ hours on this game a week.

What I dont understand with posts like this is why do you play this game? People generally play for fun. DfC's definition may differ from mine and yours, but he plays for the same reason, fun.

Why then do you want people to have less fun by regrinding a quest they've ran 200+ times because Turbine changed the game?

What is it about deconstruction of GS items that is so wrong? That causes your fun to be hampered?

[Aspenor]

arguing that respecs are not in the "spirit of DnD," even pen and paper DnD, is wrong. same for greensteel crafting.

you know what's the spirit of DnD? Having fun playing a fantasy character.

If a DM decides to implement a rule mid-campaign that the players have relied on, he/she will find his/herself with upset players. Upset players leave the game, both in PnP and video games.

This is basically like saying "sure, you've spent all kinds of time and energy to develop a character that performs in a certain way, but i've decided that i don't like how that certain way functions and i'm going to change it. oh and btw, you can't change anything, you're stuck with it."

[Zenako]

Let me just interject on this (and yes I have crafted a number of GS items).

One of the strawman arguements that is attached is that they nerfed Crit Rage??? Well I have seen nothing whatsoever about nerfing Crit Rage at all! Crit Rage and GS weapon builds that were selected to get the most bang for the buck out of that overpowered enhancement still will work just the same as they have.

The only thing that has changed is now a Barbarian has OTHER options to choose from and those do not have Crit rage as part of that PrC build so you can't have the new flavor on top of the old. The new PrC brings a different minmax optimization to the table that differs from the old one. Perhaps some of those old GS "mistakes" would actually be useful now?

As for deconstructing GS items, that is a strong maybe from me, and there needs to be some loss of significance (shards at a minimum) and perhaps a chance of each ingredient becoming unuseable again.

As for character Respects - no. Never have and probably never will be for that, for a whole slew of reasons (some rational, some more emotional).

[Zenako]

arguing that respecs are not in the "spirit of DnD," even pen and paper DnD, is wrong. same for greensteel crafting.

you know what's the spirit of DnD? Having fun playing a fantasy character.

If a DM decides to implement a rule mid-campaign that the players have relied on, he/she will find his/herself with upset players. Upset players leave the game, both in PnP and video games.

This is basically like saying "sure, you've spent all kinds of time and energy to develop a character that performs in a certain way, but i've decided that i don't like how that certain way functions and i'm going to change it. oh and btw, you can't change anything, you're stuck with it."

Turn the tables a bit. Say something simple loaths running the shroud, but spent many many hours rerunning it to build another item to replace one they screwed up for some reason. Toss in a respect and that player (who in their mind wasted tons of time doing stuff they disliked to build a replacement item) now feels slighted since all those people who did not have to do that can now just do a second chance build. While the number of players like this is probably small, I am sure they exist.

[vtecfiend99]

Why does everything on the forums turn into a hate filled rant betweeen powergamers and so called "casual" gamers?

This would help EVERYONE... but power gamers to a lesser extent people. As DfC said, do you think he doesnt have the ingredients to make new items? I know that he HAS to have more ingredients than me and I have enough to recraft a couple double shard weapons if need be. Do I want to waste all those large scales? No. Will I? yes. will i get them back? you know it!

The people hurt the most by having a weapon get some kind of "nerf" in relation to what would be better for their character are people who DO NOT have time/guild/ability to run shroud into the ground on six to ten capped toons. THOSE people are going to be the ones that are disappointed that they FINALLY got their Min2 axe that they are so proud of, after running shroud for a year, only to find out their weapon isnt the best it could be anymore.


p.s. and for all the people out their hating on the so called power gamers... buzz off. I have seen people from power guilds on argo be more generous with time, equipment and MOST IMPORTANT accurate information than i ever have from other guilds/play styles.I play alot of characters and i am a lowbie addict, and i have been in groups with these people when they get a newbie and they are always willing to share info in a polite and civil manner. Only people from wannabe "power guilds" run around screaming "NOOB ASS WIPE PARTY BANE **** UP IDIOTS". If your an "uber" player your actions speak for you and you dont have to TELL someone you are a good player.

[Aspenor]

Turn the tables a bit. Say something simple loaths running the shroud, but spent many many hours rerunning it to build another item to replace one they screwed up for some reason. Toss in a respect and that player (who in their mind wasted tons of time doing stuff they disliked to build a replacement item) now feels slighted since all those people who did not have to do that can now just do a second chance build. While the number of players like this is probably small, I am sure they exist.

this individual can deconstruct their mess up, and use the ingredients to make a new item. they have gained, not lost.

[bobbryan2]

Why does everything on the forums turn into a hate filled rant betweeen powergamers and so called "casual" gamers?

Because a choice few people believe that ultimately, power-gamers and casual gamers need to be on the same power level. They are deathly afraid that any change that benefits power gamers might be the one that tips the scales and throws any sort of perceived balance out the window.

These posters usually feel that blocking any request made by a perceived power gamer is a good idea, and usually at the cost of shooting themselves in the foot at the same time.

I don't really understand the us vs them mentality. But then... whatever. I know plenty of people who also have an us vs them mentality with the devs and gamers. And those people really don't understand seperating the playerbase into uses and thems.

I get so tired of the line, "that would benefit the power gamer, though."

[gfunk]

I agree that if the announced changes are brought into the game there should also be some opportunity to "recraft" items. I feel that the changes will cause some great players to leave out of frustration, which I think is a bad thing.

I mean it's got to be pretty frustrating when you have a pick weilding barbarian who does a good job in the current game, and all of a sudden you will be down in 10th position behind someone weilding such weapons as shortswords, kukri's and daggers.

I had made some bastard swords for my fighter which I felt were OK at second place, and kind of interesting. The new changes put them alot farther behind the khopesh in terms of dps. Enough so, that I will definately be saving up larges to recraft. With the amount I play, it will take a few months to acquire enough ingredients to switch out weapons. Maybe that extra play time is Turbines intent, however it seems a bit frustrating being as how I just finished crafting the old swords.

Personally, I will stick around long enough to rebuild however I think that the changes will cause many people to move on. Perhaps that is Turbines intent, I could see them wanting to flush out some of the old blood to make room for the new.

I think that it would be OK if there was some extra effort required to recraft... say a regathering of shrards and power cells? I get the sense that some people would object to even that, though probably it wouldn't be a killer for most people.

[SableShadow]

Well, I don't disagree with your points Davey. I honestly don't disagree with what you're saying at all. 'cept I don't have any items crafted yet because I saw where this was going (and why I halted level progression prior to 15 on my characters).

So...*not* playing the game (no grinds, levels left at 14 or less) placed you in a more advantageous position (in your opinion) for the endgame as opposed to playing to the cap and doing the grinding/crafting?

As I stated before, this is not a ...credible? reasonable? ... position even if true. Not remotely.

The key point is not a dig at you, Kist, it's this -> If Turbine is actively rewarding people for *not* participating in their grinds and *not* leveling their characters...I guess I just don't know what else to say, other than something is very, very wrong at Turbine.

If true, this is about as far away from ok as you can get; I would have had superior "foresight" to have simply cancelled my account (again!) and not come back.

Now, I don't expect everyone to have seen all of this coming their way.

To say it is very counter-intuitive to *not* play the game one is playing is...something of an understatement.

I think there should be a risk. A 1 for 1 tradeoff to say "I take it back!" is a little eggregious. It's a tad unfair to anyone. I don't care if you wasted a ton of ingredients on mistakes.

Sure, those are good points. I hear a lot more new folks who screw up their crafting ("What do you mean, I needed to combine the two shards before I added my weapon?!?! What do you mean, I'm stuck with it!?!?!?") than I've heard powergamers complain about the weapon changes. Being able to recycle at least some of that would be a good thing; take some of the sting out of it.

I'm glad people did that, thanks for the recipes, thanks for the research...I cannot bleed a heart or shed a tear for them, but I do thank them for their work.

*********************************************

Look, Kist, we've known each other for years; I'm sure you've got some very solid, game-mechanics/dynamics related reasons for opposing gs reconstruction. The reasons so far, though...kinda smack of "stick it to the man".

Take your time, write up the details ... heck, PM 'em to me if you want another set of eyes before you post 'em. I look forward to your next posts.

[gfunk]

These posters usually feel that blocking any request made by a perceived power gamer is a good idea, and usually at the cost of shooting themselves in the foot at the same time.

I think that this huirts non power gamers worse than power gamers in some ways. Imagine a guy who took almost a full year to craft up his weapons. They would probably have felt pretty good thinking "cool, now i can keep up with the power gamers". With the new changes, this guy is going to have to wait many months before he can catch up again. Conversely the power gaming types will re-equip themselves much quicker... if they stay around.

[Zenako]

this individual can deconstruct their mess up, and use the ingredients to make a new item. they have gained, not lost.

absolutely, but the point was for a player like that, is they cannot get back what they felt was their wasted playtime. "Gheesh Turbine - why did you not let us know you would be doing this and I would not have wasted all that time in the shroud getting more ingredient..."

[Aspenor]

absolutely, but the point was for a player like that, is they cannot get back what they felt was their wasted playtime. "Gheesh Turbine - why did you not let us know you would be doing this and I would not have wasted all that time in the shroud getting more ingredient..."

doubtful.

this individual would have continued running the shroud for ingredients for other items, and loot.

[bandyman1]

It's not what I said persay. You're read'n into it too much.

I saw what was happening, but I have a strange foresight. I don't pity or envy those who had greensteel items to whoop-snoogans for eons and now find themselves gett'n a little rough sandpaper.

The fact it, this happens a lot in games and life. I don't expect any game or situation in life to remain static. I think you all should adapt and stop emo'n this up so much. Run the Shroud again if you don't like your item after the PrCs come out.

Turbine gave you more options with the coming mod9. Celebrate that! New greensteel items can be made. You're still running a level 16 to level 20 for it.

I've guys at specific levels for specific reasons due to the level 20 that was inevitable. I've never stopped playing. I admit I can't play as much as you guys due to my job and life these days.

I stand by my final thought: "I think you guys are underestimating how badly you want the perfect greensteel item for your character."

Stop asking for free handouts. If anything, I'd encourage Turbine to make this "Greensteel Deconstruction" a Premium Service along with the Full Character Respec option.

This is the stupidest statement I've ever seen from you Kist. And it shows up from some noob everytime GS deconstruction is mentioned.

You wanna know how that nice little spreadsheet showing you exactly what ingredients to use to get the effects you want when it's time for you to craft came to be???

How about us powergamers just remove all sourses of those from any wiki's, boards, compendiums, websites, ect., and keep our mouths shut about anything crafting related, and just let the poor casuals, who spent 9 months gathering ingredients, because they can't play as often as we can, end up with a craptastic PoS item when they finally decides they have enough ingredients to test the system?

That sound about right? Would it make you guys happy? Wonder how many canceled accounts we'd see then, humm???

Talk about a free ride, lmao. You ( and those that agree with you ) rest on the work and sacrifices of others, and then ***** about peeps wanting an opprotunity to rectify the mistakes they made providing that labor.

Just lmfao.

[Borror0]

If Turbine is actively rewarding people for *not* participating in their grinds and *not* leveling their characters...I guess I just don't know what else to say, other than something is very, very wrong.

Rewarding players that don't play over those that do is simply... counter-productive.

Turbine should encourage players to play more and more, not taking breaks to avoid getting nerfed. "Don't play the game, it's better that way"?

[Zenako]

So...*not* playing the game placed you in an advantageous position (in your opinion) as opposed to playing the game?

I am not Kistilan.. but I think I know what was being said.

Did not say they stopped playing, but that they stopped leveling. I have a cleric at level 14 (who with 1 exp point would be 16). Choose to stop leveling at that point, mainly so I could run with upper mid levels on guild quests without nuking their experience like a level 16 would. Probably played her more than any other character for a few months this summer/fall, all the while "pinned" at level 14. She has very good gear (a lot of it raid items), is ready to craft (but have not bothered yet).

[SableShadow]

I am not Kistilan...

Yes, I got that.

Kist usually has solid reasoning behind his postings; I'm guessing he's short on time, so what he's trying to express isn't making it through to my brain.

"I would have written you a shorter letter, but I didn't have the time." - Lincoln

I have a cleric at level 14 (who with 1 exp point would be 16). Choose to stop leveling at that point, mainly so I could run with upper mid levels on guild quests without nuking their experience like a level 16 would. Probably played her more than any other character for a few months this summer/fall, all the while "pinned" at level 14. She has very good gear (a lot of it raid items), is ready to craft (but have not bothered yet).

Leveling is a basic function of a game with levels. You chose not to level for a specific altruistic reason: not nuking your friend's experience...note-> so *they* can level. I know quite a few people who maintain characters in every level range, so they've always got someone to play with whichever of their friends are online. All fine and good. There are and should be many different viable playstyles in an MMO.

But...to delay leveling for a year because it would convey an endgame advantage and calling it "foresight" is not very reasonable, if true. "I didn't level for a year because I knew the devs would bork the end game" is perhaps a little more accurate...and if that's what one believes, why play at all? If one believes they'll "bork" the currently targetted end game (Mod 9), why would one not believe they'd "bork" something in the future (Mod 10+)? Why play at all, then, if all you have to do is not play in order to gain some kind of advantage?

[Garth_of_Sarlona]

So do people who took part in the process of figuring out the GS recipes have a bigger say in this discussion?

/stir



Garth

[Borror0]

So do people who took part in the process of figuring out the GS recipes have a bigger say in this discussion?

Only if you are in favor of respec/deconstruction.

[Angelus_dead]

As I stated before, this is not a credible position. Not remotely. If Turbine is actively rewarding people for *not* participating in their grinds and *not* leveling their characters...I guess I just don't know what else to say, other than something is very, very wrong.

Correct. Rewarding players for not playing the game is such a notoriously bad design choice that it makes me think the person who posted that is only pretending to oppose respecs, and is actually in favor of respecs and is trying to make all the anti-respec people look stupid.