The Green steel melee weapon shuffle

[gfunk]

(updated and edited dec 11, 2008)
I just did a quick look at the changes in weapon supremacy as a result of the new barbarian and fighter enhancements. I considered cases where barbs and fighters would have +30 for single hand damage and +40 for two hand damage from sources like weapon +, feats, enhancements. The numbers are based on missing only on a 1, and always confirming a crit. All numbers include a bloodstone. I also just calculated damage per swing, ignoring weapon speed. (damage numbers are in orange).

(edited to reflect crit multiplier only on 19-20)
Obviously, some big changes for some of the weapons. Especially for barb weapons were high crit range weapons such as the rapier and scimitar movied up from fairly far down the list. The biggest loss will be for the heavy pick users who move down to the #6 position.

Lesser changes for the fighter, but still some movement. khopesh stays at the top, however the heavy pick moves up into the #2 spot. Dwarven axe stays at #3 and the bastard sword moves down from #2 to #5.

all in all, most people who play melee in ddo will be effected and if you want to maximize your damage you will have to make some changes to your arsenal... sigh... Back to the shroud for some farming. Good thing I like the shroud.

OLD FIGHTER ORDER
One handed weapons:
1 gs khopesh 51.525
2 gs bastard sword 47.25
3 gs rapier 46.725
5 gs scimitar 46.725
5 gs dwarven axe 46.65
6 gs heavy pick 45.525
7 gs kukri 45.475
8 gs light pick 44.275
9 gs longsword 43.225
10 gs warhammer 42.625
11 gs battle axe 42.625
12 gs shortsword 42.075
13 gs hand axe 41.475
14 gs dagger 40.925
15 gs morning star 38.475
16 gs scepter 37.425
17 gs kama 37.425
18 gs light mace 37.425
19 gs sickle 37.425

two handed weapons:
1 gs falchion 62.35
2 gs greatsword 60.475
3 gs greataxe 59.875
4 gs maul 58.15
5 gs quarterstaff 47.925

KENSAI FIGHTER, full enhancement line(change in position)
One Hand Weapons:
1 gs khopesh 58.975 stays at #1
2 gs heavy pick 54.3 heavy pick up from #6
3 gs dwarven axe 53.25 up from #3
4 gs light pick 52.9 light pick up from #8
5 gs bastard sword 51.85 bastard sword down from #2
6 gs rapier 51.85 rapier down from #3/4
7 gs scimitar 51.8 scimitar down from #3/4
8 gs kukri 50.55 kukri down from #7
9 gs warhammer 48.875 warhammer up from #10
10 gs battle axe 48.875 battle axe up from #11
11 gs longsword 47.625 longsword down from #9
12 gs hand axe 47.6 handaxe up from #13
13 gs shortsword 46.4 shortsword down from #12
14 gs dagger 45.2 unchanged
15 gs morning star 42.05 unchanged
16 gs scepter 40.95 unchanged
17 gs kama 40.95 unchanged
18 gs light mace 40.95 unchanged
19 gs sickle 40.95 unchanged


Two Hand Weapons:
1 gs falchion 68.1 unchanged
2 gs greataxe 67.625g reataxe up from #3
3 gs maul 65.75 maul up from #4
4 gs greatsword 65.6 greatsword down from #2
5 gs quarterstaff 51.95 unchanged

OLD BARBARIAN ORDER (crit range II)
One Hand Weapons:
1 gs khopesh 60.425
2 gs heavy pick 58.275
3 gs light pick 56.725
4 gs dwarven axe 56.25
5 gs bastard sword 52.35
6 gs warhammer 51.525
7 gs battle axe 51.525
8 gs rapier 51.375
9 gs scimitar 51.375
10 gs hand axe 50.175
11 gs kukri 50.025
12 gs longsword 47.975
13 gs shortsword 46.725
14 gs dagger 45.475
15 gs morning star 43.225
16 gs scepter 42.075
17 gs kama 42.075
18 gs light mace 42.075
19 gs sickle 42.075

two hand weapons:
1 gs greataxe 71.775
2 gs maul 69.75
3 gs falchion 68.25
4 gs greatsword 66.725
5 gs quarterstaff 53.575

FRENZIED BARB (** edited to reflect crit multiplier working on 19-20)
One Hand Weapons(change in position)
change in position
1 green steel khopesh 59.825 stays at #1
2 green steel bastard sword 56.25 up from #5
3 green steel dwarven axe 55.65 up from #4
4 green steel rapier 54.825 up from #8/9
5 green steel scimitar 54.825 up from #8/9
6 green steel heavy pick 53.625 down from #2
7 green steel kukri 53.375 up from #11
8 green steel light pick 52.175 down from #3
9 green steel longsword 51.525 up from #12
10 green steel warhammer 50.925 down from #6/7
11 green steel battle axe 50.925 down from #6/7
12 green steel shortsword 50.175 up from #13
13 green steel hand axe 49.575 down from #10
14 green steel dagger 48.825 unchanged
15 green steel morning star 46.775 unchanged
16 green steel scepter 45.525 unchanged
17 green steel kama 45.525 unchanged
18 green steel light mace 45.525 unchanged
19 green steel sickle 45.525 unchanged

two hand weapons
1 green steel falchion 72.95 up from #3
2 green steel greatsword 71.775 up from #4
3 green steel greataxe 71.175 down from #1
4 green steel maul 69.15 down from #2
5 green steel quarterstaff 58.025 unchanged

[gfunk]

fixed some numbers, improved formatting,

still hard to read, sorry

[Lorien_the_First_One]

What are those numbers? Damage per swing? or DPS considering the variable swing rates of the different weapons?

[Borror0]

**** hard to read.

[Angelus_dead]

FRENZIED BARB
4 gs longsword 59.825 longsword up from #12
5 gs shortsword 58.275 shortsword up from #13
6 gs kukri 57.325 kukri up from #11
7 gs dagger 56.725 dagger up from #14

If you get a Kukri as less than a Shortsword, you're doing something wrong.

[gfunk]

If you get a Kukri as less than a Shortsword, you're doing something wrong.

ick.. your right.. i havent straightened my cells around correctly when i moved them. thx for pointing this one out.

**edit, fixed problem with kukri numbers, may be other errors

[gfunk]

What are those numbers? Damage per swing? or DPS considering the variable swing rates of the different weapons?

numbers were listed as damage per swing, though it was a bit hard to read with the bad formatting

[negative]

According to your numbers, the gap between a Barb with a greataxe and a barb with a falchion currently is around 3.5 points (I think this is damage per swing). A frenzied barb will do almost 23 points more with a falchion? That is a considerable increase in the power gap between weapons. Are you sure these numbers are correct?

I also don't understand how bastard sword was ever #2 for fighters, but maybe I'm missing something.

I guess my point is, show your work

I think swing speed is probably still fairly important to account for. That might narrow the gap between the weapon types post-change I would hope.

[tc12]

Nevermind, I figured out the answer to the question I had...

[Lorien_the_First_One]

numbers were listed as damage per swing, though it was a bit hard to read with the bad formatting

That kind of makes the list a little pointless in some ways. For example it takes 10%ish off of the DPS of falchons and greatswords, moving them firmly behind the great axes.

[gfunk]

That kind of makes the list a little pointless in some ways. For example it takes 10%ish off of the DPS of falchons and greatswords, moving them firmly behind the great axes.

well, "pointless" is a bit harsh...its only the two hand weapons that are effected by that. 10% does currently shift some dps towards the greataxe, however the other two are still ahead with the new numbers. Plus, as has been discussed in many posts the differences in speeds was done by a long-gone developer for asthetic reasons. For that reason, I like to put the numbers per swing down, then people can mentally adjust based on whether they think the speeds will eventually be "fixed" or not.

also note, the numbers do not reflect the addition of the vicious effect. I am just including the increase in damage that comes as a result of the larger crit multiplier. It should further be noted, that these numbers are generated from green steel blanks. The addition of bursting/blasting and other effects would also shift the numbers somewhat, but it is difficult to weigh all the possibilities. I think it gives a reasonable indication of the winners and losers that result from the changes to fighter/barb crit enhancements.

I also think its humorous that it appears that a dagger wielding barbarian might be more effective than one with dwarven axes. Seems odd, but i will double check my numbers tommorow.

[gfunk]

According to your numbers, the gap between a Barb with a greataxe and a barb with a falchion currently is around 3.5 points (I think this is damage per swing). A frenzied barb will do almost 23 points more with a falchion? That is a considerable increase in the power gap between weapons. Are you sure these numbers are correct?

I also don't understand how bastard sword was ever #2 for fighters, but maybe I'm missing something.

I guess my point is, show your work

ok, this is how i look at weapon damage:
you have three componenets:

misses (1/20)
regular hit chance((20-misses-critrange)/20)
critical hit chance (critrange/20)

these numbers can be used to calculate the weighted average damage coming from each component.

misses = 0 damage
regular damage = avg weapon damage + damage enhancements
crit damage = (regular damage+extra crit damage)*crit multiplier

we can combine these to get:

total damage = (misses * 0) + (regular hits chance * regular damage) + (crit hit chance * crit damage)

For the greensteel bastard sword:
base damage:
base weapon damage = 2d8 (average damage of 9)
regular damage with a +30 total enhancement = 9+30 = 39

crit range is 17-20 (with improved crit) so:

misses=1/20
regular hit chance = 15/20
critical hit chance = 4/20

total damage is then (including the +6 seeker for bloodstone):

= (1/20 * 0) + (15/20 * 39) + (4/20* ((39+6)*2))
= 47.25

it is important to note that withouth the +6 seeker, the dwarven axe is tied with the bastard sword for second spot. Using the bloodstone, the dwarven axe falls behind to third place.

for the green steel Dwarven axe (also 2d8)
=(1/20*0) + (17/20 *39) + (2/20* ((39+6)*3))
=46.65

I could go through them all, but you get the idea.

I think swing speed is probably still fairly important to account for. That might narrow the gap between the weapon types post-change I would hope.

I have seen the swing speed numbers for the falchion at lower BAB's but i haven't seen them at lvl cap. The numbers I typically use can be found in a post by Angelus Dead. perhaps he has the numbers for the falchion. If so, it would be simple to multiply the above tables to get total dps (which are now mostly corrected i think)

(swings /min at 15BAB):

greatsword: 76
greataxe: 81
staff: 84
1wf: 89
ius: 96
utwf: 150
twf: 166

source:
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=161602

[Samadhi]

I love how they completely invalidated heavy pick builds with these changes. Who new that heavy picks weren't the proper weapon of a barbarian?

[gfunk]

I love how they completely invalidated heavy pick builds with these changes. Who new that heavy picks weren't the proper weapon of a barbarian?

well, for heavy picks, the deathnip is still a pretty serious weapon for both fighters and barbs. For a kensai fighter, the weapon gets up to seeker +12 (with the +4 kensai), and for a frenzied barb you have a *6 multiplier (and still decent crit range). without the maiming effect the numbers are:

old fighter: 59.875
kensai fighter: 70.65
old barb: 73.425
frenzied barb: 76.875

[The_Phenx]

Yes but If you look at the numbers... most weapons do very similar dmaage numbers while those with high crit ranges are strengthened.

See not a nerf.

[Justicesar]

I must be using the weapon comparison tool wrong as far as comparing the Dwarven Axe with/without enhancments to the Khopesh. I have the Dwarven Axe doing more damage. Is there more that one tool out there to use?? Perhaps I have the wrong one or just have not put in the proper info?? Dunno have to check when I get home.

[gfunk]

I must be using the weapon comparison tool wrong as far as comparing the Dwarven Axe with/without enhancments to the Khopesh. I have the Dwarven Axe doing more damage. Is there more that one tool out there to use?? Perhaps I have the wrong one or just have not put in the proper info?? Dunno have to check when I get home.

The different weapons have different "slopes" in their damage profile, and they have cross-over points at different levels of damage bonuses. A dwarven axe may be favored in some cases due to higher base damage (2d8 dwarven axe vs 1d10 for the khopesh). I used a pretty high damage bonuse (+30), which probably represents top quartile damage at end game. Most people agree that the khopesh (has done/does) more damage at end game damage bonus levels, so you may be inputing something incorrectly.

[RobbinB]

How could anyone with even an iota of intelligence believe it is logical to make a change that results in the top 3 one-hand weapons for a barbarian being a rapier, a kukri, and a scimitar? Absolutely ridiculous.

[Angelus_dead]

How could anyone with even an iota of intelligence believe it is logical to make a change that results in the top 3 one-hand weapons for a barbarian being a rapier, a kukri, and a scimitar?

To seriously answer the question, an intelligent person could make that change by doing something that sounds good in isolation, and then not thinking through how it will interact with existing weapon properties.

You see, the idea that "Barbs are strong and wild, so they should do more damage on critical hits" sounds great. But the error arises with the decision to increase their crit damage by adding +1 or +2 to the crit mult. Effects which benefit crits should be multiplicative, not additive, because multiplicative bonuses will apply the same way to all kinds of weapons.

An additive bonus favors one kind of weapon or another. The old Critical Rage addition to crit threat favored axes and picks, while the new Frenzied Berserker addition to Crit Mult favors swords and rapiers. In both cases, if the bonus had been multiplication instead of addition, the result would've been fair to both axes and swords.

It's understandable that a person could make those kinds of mistakes without thinking it through. "+2 crit mult" certainly sounds like something barbs would be good at, doesn't it?

[Angelus_dead]

The different weapons have different "slopes" in their damage profile, and they have cross-over points at different levels of damage bonuses. A dwarven axe may be favored in some cases due to higher base damage

The slope is equal to (19 + (crit mult -1) * crit range) / 20. A person can use that to determine at what level of bonuses one weapon overtakes another.

For example, rapiers overtake bastard swords about when your total bonuses from str, magic, and PA add up to 7.