non self-sufficiency

[Wyrmwood]

*sigh...

Using resources, (ie: not spell points), is not a serious issue at low lvl. It becomes serious at high lvl. My 16 cleric is broke, and i bet you that if you ask anyone else with a high lvl cleric that they run in raids, they are broke most of the time, too. I swear the bane of my clerics existence is the Heal scroll. I have purchased thousands if not hundreds of thousands of those darn buggers. Yes, occasionally some kind samaritan will hand over a stack of twenty, or drop 3k plat my way, which is appreciated, but is equal to working all day and getting a sandwich in return. It does hurt the pocket in very painful ways.

Hence my disgust at raiding with my cleric. Every shroud, I would have to go buy another hundred stack, while most everyone in the group overlooks the fact that the clerics combined dropped over 50k plat for that one run. (on a good run.) This is taking into account the fact that most everyone that does the shroud knows it and are quite professional at it, and for the fact that zerging nonexistent due to circumstances. Otherwise damage would be much worse.

Here I turn on the elite players that have differing opinions on the cleric class. CLERICS PURPOSE IS TO HEAL AND MAINTAIN THE INTEGRITY OF THE GROUP. (remove spells, restores, so on and so forth) Differing opinions usually rear their ugly heads at this point, and you are intitled to them, (not that I would like to hear them), but I don't usually throw an offensive spell unless my immediate person is in danger, or...and this is the more serious point...I'm bored. Being that if you have a bored cleric, things are usually going very well.

And FINALLY, if you can run missions without a cleric...good for you. Go get yourself a lollypop. Odds are that someone in the group is playing the role of cleric, whether they know it or not. (by the way, reflecting on the fact that the majority of lfm's up are usually wanting a cleric is a sign that clerics are usually needed.)

EYE....have ranted long enough. Be nice to your clerics please, cause most of the time we just want to take care of you crazy short bus riding, helmet wearing, adhd, sugar high zerging little fellas anyway.

P.S. I top off the health bars to quiet the voices in my head.

[Aranticus]

*sigh...

Using resources, (ie: not spell points), is not a serious issue at low lvl. It becomes serious at high lvl. My 16 cleric is broke, and i bet you that if you ask anyone else with a high lvl cleric that they run in raids, they are broke most of the time, too. I swear the bane of my clerics existence is the Heal scroll. I have purchased thousands if not hundreds of thousands of those darn buggers. Yes, occasionally some kind samaritan will hand over a stack of twenty, or drop 3k plat my way, which is appreciated, but is equal to working all day and getting a sandwich in return. It does hurt the pocket in very painful ways.

Hence my disgust at raiding with my cleric. Every shroud, I would have to go buy another hundred stack, while most everyone in the group overlooks the fact that the clerics combined dropped over 50k plat for that one run. (on a good run.) This is taking into account the fact that most everyone that does the shroud knows it and are quite professional at it, and for the fact that zerging nonexistent due to circumstances. Otherwise damage would be much worse.

Here I turn on the elite players that have differing opinions on the cleric class. CLERICS PURPOSE IS TO HEAL AND MAINTAIN THE INTEGRITY OF THE GROUP. (remove spells, restores, so on and so forth) Differing opinions usually rear their ugly heads at this point, and you are intitled to them, (not that I would like to hear them), but I don't usually throw an offensive spell unless my immediate person is in danger, or...and this is the more serious point...I'm bored. Being that if you have a bored cleric, things are usually going very well.

And FINALLY, if you can run missions without a cleric...good for you. Go get yourself a lollypop. Odds are that someone in the group is playing the role of cleric, whether they know it or not. (by the way, reflecting on the fact that the majority of lfm's up are usually wanting a cleric is a sign that clerics are usually needed.)

EYE....have ranted long enough. Be nice to your clerics please, cause most of the time we just want to take care of you crazy short bus riding, helmet wearing, adhd, sugar high zerging little fellas anyway.

P.S. I top off the health bars to quiet the voices in my head.

if ya on khyber, join 1 of my shrouds. the last shroud i did i had a cleric on nuking duty on part 5

[Hakushi]

Not everyone have 100 slots yet, I've been running with more people who have been in the game for a month or less recently a lot more then before. The revamped new player stuff seems to be doing it's job well because I see more new players around than before. We all been new one day, and we can't expect new players to know everything and be prepared for everything.

[Blazer]

Hence my disgust at raiding with my cleric. Every shroud, I would have to go buy another hundred stack, while most everyone in the group overlooks the fact that the clerics combined dropped over 50k plat for that one run. (on a good run.) This is taking into account the fact that most everyone that does the shroud knows it and are quite professional at it, and for the fact that zerging nonexistent due to circumstances. Otherwise damage would be much worse.

Are you on Khyber? If so, drop me your name and when the shroud opens back up, you can run with me on your cleric and I'll be on mine. You'll be in a good group, all the stuff you loot will be for profit (read: no scrolls used) and you may even find it fun again, at least for one night.

[Junts]

This is my statement, "The good and skilled cleric is the one that performs either function with ease depending on the party composition and need."

A good cleric heals when needed. A good cleric banishes when needed. A good cleric blade barriers when needed.

What I think a cleric should be is all of these things. It is you and Aranticus and the others that are pigeon holing the clerics.

I'm just telling you all what the problem is -- clerics that refuse to heal are self-centered and useless to a group oriented game AND clerics that do nothing but heal are self-centered and useless to a group game. Neither is living up to it full potential. The good and skilled cleric fits the role needed by the group.

the main cleric complaint here was the vod, where it simply is the responsibility of other players to remove their own curses because there is too much else for the cleric to do, and if the cleric is wasting time on those things, they are probably wasting mana and will need to waste potions to complete the raid. using your cheap ass rem curse pots both makes the raid go smoother and ensures more clerics run it, since as far as i can tell only ghallanda does pot buyins for vod.

expecting other players in high-end or relatively-new content to either a: come prepared or b: say they are new is fine.

with that said, the new fighter in the monestary group was clear they were a first toon and aranticus thereby owed them plenty of leeway - they may not be able to afford the numbers of potions we all carry constantly and still a chance to buy better eq, etc. not everyone has friends to equip them well.

I run vod constantly on timer with both my cleric and my intimitank. i am constantly frustrated by people who do not try to make the raid go smoothly and try to learn to do it well. the raid is not hard; i have brought pugs through in the last 3 days that did not use any majors, and several others where minimal pots were used that didn't need to be. the playerbase has yet to perfect the raid to the point they can the shroud where no resources are needed; however, there is no excuse for people not trying to. in the case of vod, this means you show up with 30 rem curse and pro fire pots, or you should be declined from the lfm in my personal opinion.

the best thing that can happen to all our servers is for vod, a primarily high-end raid, to become as puggable as hound. ghallanda's getting close, but still a few months away - no idea on the other servers

it should be a goal of all of ours to get it there, and for people to stop doing the variety of stupid things they do during and after that discourages that (eg acting like melees cant roll on tharnes goggles or clerics cant roll on the glacier items, which are awesome)

[Desteria]

Cleric = healer, remover of curses, diseases, etc etc.

Build a bridge or dont run a cleric.

Lets see ya finish a raid without tanks!

Define Tank.....

then see how purty much every quest/raid has bene done buy all sorts fo all one class groups... like the 12 caster shroud run.

[Desteria]

run as a cleric with melees as your main damage dealers in "running with devils" and tell us how you feel after that

I faill to see the problem will useing melles as the main dmaage dealers in RwD, has worked a zillion times just fine for me......... Of course I'm not talking pug melles because i just don't have a reason to pug RwD, none the less i dotn see why melles cant be the main damage dealers in RwD.

[Desteria]

( like no madstone when the devil pops in Shroud or while fighting Sally) Have some curse pots.

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO not my madstoen in shroud.....

seriously though, since i'm used to finishign part 2 in liek 2-3 misn total it;s nto really an option in shroud I bever complain if some oen asks for a cure there, the rage often started before we knew wich Lt.s we had....

in VoD I compleatly agree, but shroud is a more of a corner case and i dont mine melle askgin fro a cure in there, sicne I also want that melle outputting MAX dps to burn the Lt.s down fast ... We normaly don't prep them so much as just burn them down in order fast.

[Desteria]

if i heard correctly, the cleric told the wizard to go ahead and will keep him up. The fire ellie high fives the cleric "good job there helping me prep the wizard!"

you are basically saying the same thing, everyone should at least be able to take care of him/herself in an emergency. its kinda sad that i still hear people asking for restore in shroud part 4/5

YOu know I actuyl HAD the think logn and hard to rember *** you would need a restore for in part 4/5 of shroud... then i rembered his desise attack if you dont have desise immunity.....

[Desteria]

you Didnt Just Use The Top 40 Melee Thread As Validation For An Argument Did You Or Say That Most Of The Top Players Post In The Forums? Both Would Be Misleading, One Is A Popularity Contest Amongst Mostly Riedran Players Who Happen To Me More Outspoken And The Other Is Generalization That Favors The Loud Who Surf The Forums At Work Like Me. Resume Flame War.

Qft

[Desteria]

newbs are easy to get thru, they readily digest all information and tips. now noobs is an entirely different species, possibly from outer space. i suggest slowing and waiting for the rest of the groups, using pots to help the cleric out, etc not only they dun get it, they even boasted that the cleric will readily get them (the cleric is their guildie and has admitted that his expenses is very high). such people have not place in my runs. it is not fair to the clerics in my runs (be it guildie or not) to pick up a lazy bum's slack

2nded

3rded

4thed

5thed

6thed

you get the point.... my goal when i lead a raid/group & I have Lead a LOT in my time, (less resently due the RL messign mith my play times and shiftign them in to timezones i dotn realyl know the players for OR the other officers/members in my guild having already started forming the group before i log on), any way that goal is to have ZERO or aslittel extra expenses for any one person over another, (the exception being players that pourposly make more expensive character choices, IE the healign bard that wants to replace a cleric, will ultimatly spend more then a cleric because there only option for the heal spell is scrolls etc, still try to make them need to spend as little as possibel of course)... We don't just find a strat for a quest that works and stop lookign we ALWAYS look for better ways to do stuff least expensive ways to do stuff... on new content the first few runs tend to be expensive, my sorc noramly throws spells abotu with wild abandon drinkign pots as needed to make sure we get through it, as we learn it we learn way to make stuff cheaper and easyer, Kinda like my sorc now havign OOZE puppet for enter the kolbold options OR trayign to get an Extream aC tank for VoD and useign aggro controll beacuse it REALLY cuts down on cleric expensense, etc.

[Verlock]

all i got to say is, if ur fighter cant self heal him self through a quest. then reroll him. all tanks should have the ability to do so.

[Aussieee]

all i got to say is, if ur fighter cant self heal him self through a quest. then reroll him. all tanks should have the ability to do so.

Cause if you are the cleric they wont be getting any heals?
Anybody can drink potions question is how long will it take a tank with 350 hp to fill up.......

[xanvar]

Hey Xanvar you know you need that large scale to join my fan club right lol stil waiting on it:P

Well I seem to recall them closing the shroud but now that I am level 15 now perhaps I might get lucky and pull one. I have aprox 12 days until I deploy hopefully they will have every thing running smooth by then. If not I guess I will just have to stay on the outside looking in

[seldarin]

Cause if you are the cleric they wont be getting any heals?

100 percent correct!

[InfidelofHaLL]

Are you on Khyber? If so, drop me your name and when the shroud opens back up, you can run with me on your cleric and I'll be on mine. You'll be in a good group, all the stuff you loot will be for profit (read: no scrolls used) and you may even find it fun again, at least for one night.

oh oh can i come on that raid i will bring my lvl 1 toon

[Thorzian]

aranticus my friend im afraid you and i will just never agree on the cleic issue. been here before on the forums and ill say again, nothing bothers me more than a cleric who expects others to be self sufficient. nothing. its pretty easy to have a wf caster in a party with a cleric, pally, ranger, barb and fighter say then hassle the barb and ftr for non self healing. and honestly, monestary? you dont say... the bb and fw did a lot of the killing? which toons stood there in those aoe's and held the aggro of the casters so yer spells could do their damage? did the zergers not catch the aggro to give you time to cast those spells in the first place?

call me myopic, again, if you want but im done carrying parties like that with my huge dps wartoons, then hearing the cleric moan and gripe that i dont have pots. it works real good too. just stand back and dont swing the ol' axe. take way less damage and get end loot to. watch enemy red bars, and snipe a couple kills. then have that stupid cleric who doesnt think aggro control is as important as self healing say nice run guys, only had to raise the casters a dozen or so times.

[Thorzian]

oh, and btw, my cleric has been capped for about a year now. my biggest money maker. uses scrolls when needed, which is almost never. kills basicly nothing. if yer clerics are broke due to scroll use, i suggest less destructs and bb's. makes yer heal spells last longer for some reason. but there i am being myopic again right?

[Lehrman]

Self-sufficiency in a group does not necessarily mean that the cleric does zero healing and you heal yourself with pots, nor does the opposite mean that the cleric exists as your only source of remove poison, lesser restore, remove blindness, curse, fear, etc. Self-sufficiency means you carry a few debuff removing pots and a stack of heal pots because clerics have 4 other party members to take care of as well as themselves--besides, clerics do occasionally run out of spell points.

I can tell you from personal experience that the difference between playing without a few of each pot in your quickbar and playing with a few in your quickbar is very noticable especially when a cleric gets hit with the Fear spell and no one has a remove fear pot to use on him...

A sorc without CS pots is far less effective than one with them.
[Spoiler:you drink the pots while jumping and wearing FF so you can continue to kite mobs through firewalls if you use FWs. If you drinkthem without jumping you will just stand in place and get pounded.]

If people do not want to practice even a small degree of self-sufficiency, then that is their choice. Put them in your pocket and carry them to the next shrine or rez them, rebuff them, and move on.

[Aranticus]

aranticus my friend im afraid you and i will just never agree on the cleic issue. been here before on the forums and ill say again, nothing bothers me more than a cleric who expects others to be self sufficient. nothing. its pretty easy to have a wf caster in a party with a cleric, pally, ranger, barb and fighter say then hassle the barb and ftr for non self healing. and honestly, monestary? you dont say... the bb and fw did a lot of the killing? which toons stood there in those aoe's and held the aggro of the casters so yer spells could do their damage? did the zergers not catch the aggro to give you time to cast those spells in the first place?

call me myopic, again, if you want but im done carrying parties like that with my huge dps wartoons, then hearing the cleric moan and gripe that i dont have pots. it works real good too. just stand back and dont swing the ol' axe. take way less damage and get end loot to. watch enemy red bars, and snipe a couple kills. then have that stupid cleric who doesnt think aggro control is as important as self healing say nice run guys, only had to raise the casters a dozen or so times.

oh, and btw, my cleric has been capped for about a year now. my biggest money maker. uses scrolls when needed, which is almost never. kills basicly nothing. if yer clerics are broke due to scroll use, i suggest less destructs and bb's. makes yer heal spells last longer for some reason. but there i am being myopic again right?

thorzian, i suggest you reread the posts, that is all