non self-sufficiency

[Aranticus]

You didnt just use the top 40 melee thread as validation for an argument did you or say that most of the top players post in the forums? Both would be misleading, one is a popularity contest amongst mostly Riedran players who happen to me more outspoken and the other is generalization that favors the loud who surf the forums at work like me. Resume flame war.

if i was that sucky as leyoni said, i would prolly in the top 10 DNP players!

[Aranticus]

Didn't realize how few hit points you have , and am used to throwing heals on whe caster I'm healing down there. You got 1 or 2 shotted. But , as I said, if you're going to expect others to be self sufficient, ya gotta practice what ya preach Gotta mess with you cuz I'm bored and no Shroud, lol.

i told ya i cant mess with the fire ele, i know my limits

[alchilito]

Nice job describing what goes on daily in almost any average pug.

On to the next thread.

[Strakeln]

It looks to me like you were the one without a choice as you had nobody to group with other than the two pick up groups.

To be fair, being in a PUG does not necessarily reflect the player's lack of choices. Some people PUG by choice, myself included. I prefer the challenge and can afford the expense.

[Strakeln]

It looks to me as though some are so bored without having Shroud raids to run that they've decided to aspire to Goolie Award stature.

Sorry Mithran, Goolies can only be awarded to people fighting what they incorrectly perceive to be elitism.

I'm not sure what this thread is, but I don't think it's that.

[Strakeln]

However, it's dog gone expensive! If you have to rely on pots (no wands) for healing it is very, very expensive.
Most of my chars are flat broke because of it.

As a player who prides himself on extreme levels of self-sufficiency, I think it's worth pointing out that my one cleric eats through more money than all of my other characters combined (it's worth noting that all I do are end-game raids, that makes a difference in consumable consumption).

Back when it was mostly scrolls and wands, that wasn't the case. But with the "better bring mana pots" status of most end-game raids, that has changed significantly.

My point here is, while it costs the melee a pretty penny to keep himself alive, it often costs the cleric more to keep others alive.

[djinni69]

I had to stop reading after page 1 ... but Shugar, did you educate these guys on how to be self sufficient? Just curious Help the n00bs, give em a clue

[Mithran]

As a player who prides himself on extreme levels of self-sufficiency, I think it's worth pointing out that my one cleric eats through more money than all of my other characters combined (it's worth noting that all I do are end-game raids, that makes a difference in consumable consumption).

Back when it was mostly scrolls and wands, that wasn't the case. But with the "better bring mana pots" status of most end-game raids, that has changed significantly.

My point here is, while it costs the melee a pretty penny to keep himself alive, it often costs the cleric more to keep others alive.

/signed

I've seen some players here swear by the wealth of their Clerics, but I run mine exclusively as a public service, and only grudgingly, then. I was telling someone about people (it's been a couple years ago or so, now) refusing to accept the Raise Dead scrolls' effect and waiting until after combat to tell me I needed to invest in True Resurrection scrolls. Well, I did, but they're enormously expensive, even from Qwijymart. In retrospect, I should have reminded them that they hadn't given me any.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

As a player who prides himself on extreme levels of self-sufficiency, I think it's worth pointing out that my one cleric eats through more money than all of my other characters combined (it's worth noting that all I do are end-game raids, that makes a difference in consumable consumption).

Back when it was mostly scrolls and wands, that wasn't the case. But with the "better bring mana pots" status of most end-game raids, that has changed significantly.

My point here is, while it costs the melee a pretty penny to keep himself alive, it often costs the cleric more to keep others alive.

This is exactly why I don't bring my cleric into end-game raids right now. I really can't afford to have what others expect me to.

It's also one of the reasons I am pro-self-sufficency. I do my best to take care of myself (and usually try not to get beat up too bad) so the cleric doesn't have to spend much on me. It's easier with some chars than others. Much easier with evasion chars. More difficult with Tanks.

The tanks kinda catch it two ways. Expensive pots, and feeling thet they need to donate to the cleric, who they know spent a lot of resources on them.
It's one of the reasons I usually don't play Ftrs/Brbs. Wizards also suffer from heal by pot expense, but don't usually get beat up as much. That is unless his only form of CC is a firewall.

But yes, I know that most clerics spend large fortunes on resources. At least the one's who run high end raids often do.

I've got several chars that could UMD res scrolls, but honestly I can't afford them.

I do buy wands on all my chars that can use them. And I do readily heal others with them. I do try to chare the expense and keep the clerics costs down when I can.

Actually, if more people followed the OPs adivce, Clerics would naot have to spend as much.

(and if people actually used damage minimization tactics............)

[Strakeln]

/signed

I've seen some players here swear by the wealth of their Clerics, but I run mine exclusively as a public service, and only grudgingly, then. I was telling someone about people (it's been a couple years ago or so, now) refusing to accept the Raise Dead scrolls' effect and waiting until after combat to tell me I needed to invest in True Resurrection scrolls. Well, I did, but they're enormously expensive, even from Qwijymart. In retrospect, I should have reminded them that they hadn't given me any.

That's an interesting way to express the expense.

Every time a cleric tosses a resurrection scroll on someone, they just spent 1,000pp on that person. And that's if they shop smart.

[Gunga]

Actually, all clerics are usually the easiest completions around.

Meh. The all cleric shroud on our server the other day took way too long. Easy = fast, much to the chagrin of my beautiful wife.

[Aranticus]

I had to stop reading after page 1 ... but Shugar, did you educate these guys on how to be self sufficient? Just curious Help the n00bs, give em a clue

newbs are easy to get thru, they readily digest all information and tips. now noobs is an entirely different species, possibly from outer space. i suggest slowing and waiting for the rest of the groups, using pots to help the cleric out, etc not only they dun get it, they even boasted that the cleric will readily get them (the cleric is their guildie and has admitted that his expenses is very high). such people have not place in my runs. it is not fair to the clerics in my runs (be it guildie or not) to pick up a lazy bum's slack

[djinni69]

newbs are easy to get thru, they readily digest all information and tips. now noobs is an entirely different species, possibly from outer space. i suggest slowing and waiting for the rest of the groups, using pots to help the cleric out, etc not only they dun get it, they even boasted that the cleric will readily get them (the cleric is their guildie and has admitted that his expenses is very high). such people have not place in my runs. it is not fair to the clerics in my runs (be it guildie or not) to pick up a lazy bum's slack

lol /agree That's what I was hoping you'd say

[Kindoki]

A. You have a fetish about self sufficiency that you think everyone ought to adopt.

There are very few blanket statements that I ever agree with, but Aranticus' self sufficiency rants are one of them. My main is cleric, and I am leveling up my very first melee right now. For two years I have seen non clerics that can't wipe their own behind, and now, I have seen clerics that couldn't fix a papercut. Morale of the story is, unless you are running in a static group with clearly defined roles, you are a bad player if you are not self mitigating as many of the potential negatives that could affect your character as possible. You can argue and whine all you want, but at the end of the day, you are solely responsible for your own character. When I have to drop 10000 extra plat of expendables to complete a quest because another person can't handle his/her business, then it's annoying; and that person is a bad player. If they are new, I may give them some pointers, if they are not, or they are cocky, then I blow it off, but tuck them in the back of my mind and I probably won't go to any extra effort to assist them if they end up in a group with me again. I only have two people in two years who have been so terrible that they made my permanent "list". Regardless, everyone keeps a list in some fashion; while it's undoubtedly a bit of hubris for Aranticus to constantly review his with the rest of the server, it's no less reasonable to have it, nor does it negate his point about being prepared.

For the record, my melee keeps 25 potions or a wand of each of the tonics (poison/disease/etc.), 100 cure serious potions, 100 haste, 50 rage, and 2 Cure serious wands. He rarely has to replenish. My cleric keeps a wand of each of the tonics and a stack of 100 heal, 100 cmwm, and 25 resurrection scrolls. He rarely has to replenish them as well. But I have them if needed.

You don't go to work without the right equipment to get the job done, or you get in trouble if you do, so why would you adventure without the right equipment?

[Aranticus]

(and if people actually used damage minimization tactics............)

you know what talon? i suggest using tactics during the monastery run. my fighter is able to intimidate the mobs and has an AC high enough to mitigate alot of the damage, all they had to do was to peel the casters 1st, then draw away 1 mob at a time. sad to say, none of the other melees did that. in fact they would rush up and solo 1 mob each and pull the mobs so far apart that the intimidate is inefficent

[Emili]

so there is no shroud to run and i went did other stuff. joined 2 groups 1 after another

group 1, monastery. 1 clr, 2 ftr, 1 mnk, 1 pal, 1 sorc. the mnk is a new roll and the other ftr is a 1st toon. throughout the quest, the mnk was zerging ahead and the group had to rush to save his behind. absolutely no ac nor had any pots at all. the fighter was wielding 2 weapons and all the while getting beat up by the mobs and again no pots. when i asked them what gear they were using, the mnk when on the defense. he said he did not had the ac as he were still lacking gear, namely no raiment. more importantly, when the fighter pulled a prot +5, he asked him immediately for it. problem is the fighter need it too. dps wise the other melees really suck, we had 140 kills total, me and the sorc accounted for 115

in my 2nd run, i was with a vod group. 3 players consistently needed remove curse. again unprepared. seriously on all my melee toons, i have at least 200 csw, 200 haste, 100 each of less restore, curse, disease, poison and blindness. my squishies carry 1/2 of them, and use wands if applicable

it doesnt really need alot of plat to get prepared, each stack is abt 8k pp. any one leveling up to L14-16 would have accumulated 100k or so. they also drop often in chests as well. needless to say, these people are now on the LIST

Just curious, if this is a rant or informational post?

What I mean by that is what your mood is in...

It is like this Shugar, You're a very good seasoned DDO player, some are not and some are great at playing one or two characters after a while but are in new territory on another... We've seen even those who are great players, roll a new character or class but lack a bit of the experience on how to play the new character... people who are totally new and people who think they know exactly what they're doing - yet just a tad egotistical to take some constructive criticism <- that is typically the culprit. That puts people on the defensive side. The thing is, at least from my experience ... and this comming from myself a typist in-game - usually the hardest thing to do - Is convey your intent as only advice or outside consideration and not a dis on their playing style or build. A veteran player is and has been (imho obligated) to share their experiences, idea's and knowhow with not only the newbie on the block but our fellow vets as well... some construe this as "You're telling me how to play." or "Do not want your opinion I know what I'm doing." The problem comes from approaching these people from a softer more diplomatic approach.

I totally agree people should come prepared to a quest... and should play in their limits and strive not to drag into the resources of the other players. Typically, when I'm bringing up a young toon, I ask in group if everyone is ready before the quest, I ask if anyone is new to the quest... if so I tell them what to expect and what potions/gear etc... I find useful - in party chat... if a person with voice is in the group I will ask them to be a dear and give the rundown.

running full circle... self-sufficient, reliable, group friendly players hold more esteem of fellow players then even the most uber run ahead, bang for buck ... follow and I solo'd for the group chap or the kill watcher or ... A player who plays by group is the one groups gravitate towards. People should not feel slighted whether they be seasoned, or noob when given advice as the bulk of advice is not a critique on your playing... it's a btw I like to carry x with me for in here and btw I am running low on sp could you slow down a tad?

[Aranticus]

Regardless, everyone keeps a list in some fashion; while it's undoubtedly a bit of hubris for Aranticus to constantly review his with the rest of the server

this time i blame the shroud shutdown! yeah i'm pi$$ed

[Aranticus]

[COLOR="Plum"]What I mean by that is what your mood is in...

just imagine this "heal!" "need a remove this" "need heals" "ack! poisoned" every 5 seconds

[Emili]

just imagine this "heal!" "need a remove this" "need heals" "ack! poisoned" every 5 seconds

Awe, Shugar... that is quite frustrating. I cannot blame you for the rant, we all rant from time to time... as I said though it's best to try to sugar-coat (Shugar-coat) how you approach these people who run like this and point it out just as advice or experience - ie.) how you tell them may make a greater difference the next time... thus we may gain a better player in the long run after they hear it a few times.

[RigorAdar]

Really do you need to tell level 15 and 16's to carry remove curse, blindness, poison, lesser restore pots?

I have 3 capped clerics and 1 14, i love playing clerics. People really annoy me though when they are deliberately not carrying pots.

I don't mind hitting you if you ran out or are raged, whatnot. I do mind the people who think it is my job to babysit.