What the Dark Monk Needs

[Denssor]

Sopposedly, Dark Monks are the aggressive Monks and rely on dealing damage compaired to the Light Monks which are more deffensive. But, they both have the same DPS and AC. The Light Monks get nice spells they can cast like lesser restore, remove curse, raise dead, while the Dark Monks can blind and curse mobs. But the Dark Monk finishers, as helpful as they could be, dont last long. By the time I get off a finisher and blind a mob, it dies. So theres no real reason to use the Dark Monks finishers, unless I'm in elite high end quest. The finishers are much harder to get and still they only last a second or 2 longer before they get vorped/CONed to death.

I personally think there should be a line of enhancements that are damage dealing. Enhancements that increase To-Hit and damage on weapons, increase To-Hit and damage from elemental strikes, and Increase DC for finishers (these coulod just apply for the stikes, and/or increase the Ki needed to use them). Instead of Rise of the Phoenix and being able to rez, there would be an enhancement that would be similar to the Paladins Divine Light (6d6 points of damage to all nearby enimies).

You would still need all the pre-reqs for Rise of the Phoenix (1st tier of all elements and 2nd tier of one element), excpet the Path is different. The Ki would also stay the same costing 50 Ki each use. As well as a cool down, I'm not sure what the cool down time is for RotP, but probally would be close the the same time if not the same time.

Just my thoughts on what could be done to start the need/want of Dark Monks. Obviously, these ideas have lots of wiggle room, but hopefully it starts throwing some ideas around.

[Aerendil]

Monk finishers are problematic for a number of reasons - the primary issue being that they take some time to pull off.

In that time, any trash mob is probably already dead or doesn't need to be debuffed anyways (waste of ki); any orange named is probably near dead; and any red con named is probably immune.

So the most powerful / common finishers are often the group buffs.
This is where light and dark split significantly.

Light has several group buffs, as well as an AoE heal. It also has Fists of Light which places a reverse heal "curse" on it's target - which I've never seen resisted (don't think it has a save, does it?), although it doesn't land it if you miss your attack.

Dark has nothing. Everything is single-target, and the Fists of Darkness attack has nothing aside from a single-target debuff.


Therein lies the problem.
Why choose Dark - which gives you single-target debuffs, when you can choose Light and get reverse heals, AoE heals, group blur, group +to hit/saves/skills buffs, group spell reduction, or group immunity to daze/stun/sleep.

So this is where the devs need to fix Dark.
Give it some AoE finishers and/or group buffs, equivalent to the Light path buffs, and you've now got a reason to go Dark. Currently there are NO reasons to go Dark.

Just my 2cp.

[Junts]

...to respec to light? but seriously, poor dark monks

[marcosoneghett]

Monk finishers are problematic for a number of reasons - the primary issue being that they take some time to pull off.

In that time, any trash mob is probably already dead or doesn't need to be debuffed anyways (waste of ki); any orange named is probably near dead; and any red con named is probably immune.

So the most powerful / common finishers are often the group buffs.
This is where light and dark split significantly.

Light has several group buffs, as well as an AoE heal. It also has Fists of Light which places a reverse heal "curse" on it's target - which I've never seen resisted (don't think it has a save, does it?), although it doesn't land it if you miss your attack.

Dark has nothing. Everything is single-target, and the Fists of Darkness attack has nothing aside from a single-target debuff.


Therein lies the problem.
Why choose Dark - which gives you single-target debuffs, when you can choose Light and get reverse heals, AoE heals, group blur, group +to hit/saves/skills buffs, group spell reduction, or group immunity to daze/stun/sleep.

So this is where the devs need to fix Dark.
Give it some AoE finishers and/or group buffs, equivalent to the Light path buffs, and you've now got a reason to go Dark. Currently there are NO reasons to go Dark.

Just my 2cp.

/signed. As a suggestion i'd like the DEVS to rethink the finish moves of Dark Monks from debuffers to AOE buffs on the line of To-Hit and Damage. I don't think they would "break" the game and also would give more flavor to the dark path.

[Aerendil]

Just to add a few ideas / proposed changes.

Fists of Dark - add a False Life charge to anyone attacking the target (10hps +1/monk level) that lasts for 20sec or so unless re-applied. This would be on par with Fists of Light. One gives healing; the other adds false hps and prevents additional damage. Either way, they help the group.

Dark-dark-dark - the light X 3 combo is an AoE heal for a reasonable amount (compendium is incorrect I believe. Pretty sure ingame Healing Ki shows as 2d4 + 1d4 per 2 monk levels or something? so that would be up to a 12d4 AoE heal at level 20, not counting people with +heal% gear on). I don't think it would be overpowering to have something like a Ray of Enfeeblement or Enervation bolt fire off, possibly hitting multiple enemies (if you stack them well), for the triple dark finisher. Could make an effective pulling technique on orange nameds!

Other buff suggestions could include short-lived group damage boosts; haste boosts; some form of concealment (I think Blur should have been Dark-based, not Light, but ahh well); or even an AoE fear (or, on undead, function as a 30 second charm).

Plenty of ways to do this!

*edit* - a few more ideas. I think one of the dark line, maybe water-dark-water, is the equivalent of chill touch or ghoul touch. A nice damager might be nice to keep, as long as the damage scales with monk levels, or keep it as the paralyzer. Combined with bane items, this could be a nasty combo for higher level monsters if it works on them.
Maybe instead of group concealment, have a group invisibility. 30sec timer, like all other finishers, so it would be enough to run through a room perhaps, but that's it. Could be quite fun though!

[Denssor]

AoE would be nice and got me thinking of what the finishers could be. Here just what I came up with (trying to keep everything balanced).

Lightning-Dark-Lightning: 30 second Haste
Fire-Dark-Fire: 30 second +2 To-Hit, +1 damage
Earth-Dark-Earth: 30 second +2 AC bonus
Water-Dark-Water: Chill Touch

The only problem I see, is with haste being a level 3 spell and caster can't even cast it till level 5/6, but monks get their path at level 3. As far as length, and amount of the bonus could increase by Monk Level + WIS + Base or something along those lines (what monk feature isn't based of that? :P).

Although looking at this I would probally only use Lightning-Dark-Lightning, because I'm a Halfling DEX based monk, and I see the Human STR based monks only using Fire-Dark-Fire. Earth-Dark-Earth probally won't be the most used, but used often enough to make it worth while. I just don't see Water being used that much. I'm just thinking and bashing my own idea.

[Zuldar]

The only problem I see, is with haste being a level 3 spell and caster can't even cast it till level 5/6, but monks get their path at level 3.

A caster could use scrolls of haste at 3, which would last just as long. So would be reasonable.

[sephiroth1084]

What about things like:
-a burning blood type effect (except fire and negative energy damage)
-a group blind or stun or something similar (from the release of lightning)
-an AoE knockdown effect (earthquake)
-a poison on the attack that deals some meaningful stat-damage (2d4 in a stat, or 1d6 in two stats) and slows the target (red names should be immune to the poison but not the slow effect, 2 saves, or no save for the slow but with a short duration); water
-dark x3 could be enervation (which would work nicely with stunning fist and quivering palm), or perhaps a reverse of the healing AoE with an inflict-type AoE? Not a direct port of the damage enemies have so much more HP than we do...maybe 2d4 per level, or some such? It could be like a weaker Disintegrate, but against multiple targets.

[honkuimushi]

I don't know where it would fit in, but there really should be a place for Vampiric Touch somewhere in their arsenal. An enhancement to give their barehanded attacks Vampiric regeneration would be nice too. Some fear effects would also be good for the theme.

[sephiroth1084]

Anyone else going to weigh in?

[Xyfiel]

blindness
fear
shaken
poisoned
diseased
sickened
exhausted
ability damage
inflict
cursed
unholy blight
harm(single target only)

You know, all the stuff undead like to throw at us.

[GlassCannon]

I prefer Light so I can save on plats for potions, and potentially get an Incap char off the ground for long enough to save a Raid.

It's been VERY useful.

I'd prefer that the Dark ki be equally useful in a more devastating way(Bypasses Raid Boss Immunity, lasts for at least 3 minutes, etc)

No, I don't know any of the finishers or debilitators yet, but I do think they should be pretty darn mean in combat, not just a little nasty... downright brutal. Yes, I am serious about Bypassing Raid Boss Immunities.

[Paragon]

Yes, I am serious about Bypassing Raid Boss Immunities.

As an aside, raid bosses shouldn't have those immunities. It would make fighting them a lot more fun--no more sitting around using only the 3 spells and abilities that they're not immune to while melees beat them to death. It would make offensive monk finisher better, too. It's perfectly possible to make bosses hard to kill without making them immune to everything.

More on the idea of dark monks, though, I agree on that they need a lot more damage capabilities and aoe finishers to make them comparable to light monks.

[Denssor]

A caster could use scrolls of haste at 3, which would last just as long. So would be reasonable.

Ah, good point, didn't think of scrolls.

[Lithic]

As an aside, raid bosses shouldn't have those immunities. It would make fighting them a lot more fun--no more sitting around using only the 3 spells and abilities that they're not immune to while melees beat them to death.

I dont see how making every raid a caster/cleric only FoD/Pk/Destruction fest would make a raid more fun. Hell all you'd REALLY need is one sorc with FoD, and every raid fight would almost certainly be over in 40x FoD refresh timer (about 4mins). Make it 6 casters/clerics and the boss is dead within a minute if everyone keeps rolling poorly. Alternatively you could have a couple melees with wounding and/or puncturing weapons that take it down in about 10 seconds.

Make it an undead boss and thats about 12 seconds of one tempest dual disruptor ranger.

Taking away red/purple named immunities would render every boss fight like any orange-named fight: 5 seconds till vorpal, or 1 spell-kill. Sounds like a TON of fun doesn't it?

[Denssor]

I dont see how making every raid a caster/cleric only FoD/Pk/Destruction fest would make a raid more fun. Hell all you'd REALLY need is one sorc with FoD, and every raid fight would almost certainly be over in 40x FoD refresh timer (about 4mins). Make it 6 casters/clerics and the boss is dead within a minute if everyone keeps rolling poorly. Alternatively you could have a couple melees with wounding and/or puncturing weapons that take it down in about 10 seconds.

Make it an undead boss and thats about 12 seconds of one tempest dual disruptor ranger.

Taking away red/purple named immunities would render every boss fight like any orange-named fight: 5 seconds till vorpal, or 1 spell-kill. Sounds like a TON of fun doesn't it?

I agree that Bosses should have immunities, but it's the non-boss mobs that need a lil' nerfing on the immunities part. But with or with the immunities, Dark Monks are still pretty useless unless they add new abilities for them.

[honkuimushi]

I dont see how making every raid a caster/cleric only FoD/Pk/Destruction fest would make a raid more fun. Hell all you'd REALLY need is one sorc with FoD, and every raid fight would almost certainly be over in 40x FoD refresh timer (about 4mins). Make it 6 casters/clerics and the boss is dead within a minute if everyone keeps rolling poorly. Alternatively you could have a couple melees with wounding and/or puncturing weapons that take it down in about 10 seconds.

Make it an undead boss and thats about 12 seconds of one tempest dual disruptor ranger.

Taking away red/purple named immunities would render every boss fight like any orange-named fight: 5 seconds till vorpal, or 1 spell-kill. Sounds like a TON of fun doesn't it?

While I agree that instadeath spells really don't make for a good boss battle, there should be a lot more debuffs available. You should be able to slow them, poison them, give them diseases and at the very least take down their strength so they don't hit so hard and take down their dex to decrease their AC. Maybe not to 0, but enough to significantly weaken him. There should be ways to control their movement somehow, maybe things like Greater Command and even Paralyzers and Hold. Maybe with a decreased timer and no autocrit for hold. There should be a way to disrupt their spells. There should be ways to counter special attacks and reduce buffs other than by killing mephits.

In short, bosses would be more interesting if they could be more effectively debuffed to allow the party to last longer. I would like to see a change from do as much damage as fast as possible and try to kill him as fast as possible before all the clerics are dead or OoM. If attacks other than DPS could play a significant role in boss fights I think it would make for more interesting quests.

[baddax]

An easy way to add debuffs is to amp up end boss abilities, especially on hard and elite settings. Then get rid of "blanket imunities" and make them vulnerable to level appropriate effects and debuffs with reasonable save type effects and make the able to dispel them. Of course better AI is a plus also.

[Lithic]

While I agree that instadeath spells really don't make for a good boss battle, there should be a lot more debuffs available. You should be able to slow them (CRIPPLING, SLOWBURST), poison them Nothing that does con damage should ever be allowed, its too easy/cheasy), give them diseases (Unless you were doing favor in lvl 1 quests on your capped character, the bosses fort saves would be so high that only 1 in 400 disease spells would work)and at the very least take down their strength so they don't hit so hard (ray of enfeebling, ray of exhaustion, waves of fatigue/exhaustion) and take down their dex to decrease their AC (Fatigue/exhaustion/destruction/sunder/Imp Sunder). Maybe not to 0, but enough to significantly weaken him. There should be ways to control their movement somehow(Crippling, slowburst, solid fog, possibly hamstring), maybe things like Greater Command and even Paralyzers and Hold. Maybe with a decreased timer and no autocrit for hold. There should be a way to disrupt their spells. There should be ways to counter special attacks and reduce buffs other than by killing mephits.

In short, bosses would be more interesting if they could be more effectively debuffed to allow the party to last longer. I would like to see a change from do as much damage as fast as possible and try to kill him as fast as possible before all the clerics are dead or OoM. If attacks other than DPS could play a significant role in boss fights I think it would make for more interesting quests.

Edits in red. There are already a ton of debuffs, but they are rarely used except on raid bosses because even on elite, normal quest bosses are either immune (constructs/undead) or don't last long enough anyway. Now specifically dark monks could use better debuffers (bestow curse would be a nice one, maybe an area effect for dark/dark/dark or something), but there are already lots of ways to make big bad bosses in slightly less bad bosses. As for your suggestion about paralysis or holds, even without autocrit anything that basically turns off the boss is boring. Remember the old shroud pt 5? All you would need would be a paralyser ranger, or a cleric/sorc that spamms the appropriate immobiliser and we are right back to "yawn, afk autoattack till loot guys"

[Geonis]

I suggest a bullet to the back of the head.

Until something is changed, only RP would be a reason to go Dark Monk.