Handwraps vs. kama and quarterstaff

[Craggath]

Handwraps have become hands down the best way for a monk to go. To break it down:

Handwraps:
Insane base damage
Special Ki effects
TWF without off-hand damage reduced or attack penalties
Quivering palm/stunning fist

Quarterstaffs:
Two handed fighting
increased str/power attack damage through weilding a two handed weapon.

Kamas:
Regular two handed fighting.

In pnp, monks recieved lots of boosts to unarmed combat because they couldn't enchant their hands. The special unarmed abilities were balanced by the fact that the other guy was using a +5 holy quarterstaff. Now, in DDO, where one can wear enchanted handwraps, the gap betweem quarterstaffs, kamas, and handwraps has grown to epic proportions. No monk in their right mind would use kamas, and this is NOT how the game balance should be. After all, unlike the other classes, we only have three weapons to choose from in the first place. Quarterstaffs and kamas are "special monk weapons" not Vendor Trash, right?

I am not proposing that the dev's nerf handwraps, as even handwrap using monks are behind other melee classes in terms of damage. I think the other monk weapons should be brought, if not on par, than close enough so that we actually see some builds using quarterstaffs and kamas. I think that when centered the base damage and special ki effects (magic, lawful, adamantine) should apply to all special monk weapons, while the quivering palm and stunning fist be reserved exclusively for handwrappers.

I just wanted to get that out of my system, and I realize that it will probably take a huge chunk of intricate coding so it may not happen.

Thoughts?

[Garth_of_Sarlona]

yup, handwraps and gtwf definitely the way to go now.

but monks are still gimped (that's my official line)

Garth

[Craggath]

I have a hard time agreeing considering there are no greensteel handwraps or transmuting handwraps. That means for stuff at the higher levels, which pretty much all has DR, you're not using handwraps.

Kind of hard to say they're overpowered vs. kamas and quarterstaves when you basically have to use the latter 2 in a lot of the high lvl content.

Yes, but that's purely because the dev's haven't got around to adding them yet. I'm more concerned about the mechanics of handwraps vs. other weapons when all is said and done.

Edit: ooo, ninja'd you!

[Mhykke]

I have a hard time agreeing considering there are no greensteel handwraps or transmuting handwraps. That means for stuff at the higher levels, which pretty much all has DR, you're not using handwraps.

Kind of hard to say they're overpowered vs. kamas and quarterstaves when you basically have to use the latter 2 in a lot of the high lvl content.

[Timjc86]

Handwraps with GTWF will out-damage kamas and quarterstaves in almost every possible scenario.

The exceptions are the scenarios in which straight up damage matters (such as raid boss fights like Harry and Sally). That is why my monk is currently a bank character and Abundant Step b*tch (best... feat... EVAR!).

[MrCow]

Regardless of the fact that unarmed attacks do the most damage I find that I work best with a Quarterstaff due to the reach of the weapon. My monk tends to remain mobile a lot and I find unarmed attacks are quite hard to land when on the move.

[Desteria]

TWF kamas very good DPS, IF your 6 ranger for Tempest, they are currently 15% stackign haste and can go up to 17.5% at elvle 18(12 monk), and you can get paired shroud weapons (min2 pair can add 5-6ac as can Lit2), +1 ac more TWD.
Can vorpal & wound.

TWF hadwraps very good DPS, Hard to say weather it beats tempest Kamas, it's 7.5% speed Vr's off hand STR, and bigger base damage, BUT that speed gap is reduced by the HtH animation beign faster, BUT then the HtH will lose out of verten mobs it's impossibel to bypass DR on with hadwraps, (any that requier a metal & alignment-Harry for eg).
Can Weaken and Enffeble.

Q-staff **** dps comparativly but better reach, and might get some upgrades with the changes to THF comming.
Can weaken adn enfeeble.
Has insain possiblities with a Rouge12monk6xyz2 theif acrobat2+air2 for somethign liek 25% stacking haste all the tiem + boosts for even more, and the THF stuff; dont think it would win the strait up DPS but the SA from that much rouge woudl make it decent, but that not so much a monk as a rouge with a little monk tossed in now.


IMO atm the way to go on a monk is TWF if your tempest stick to the Kamas, (unless they add monks belts your fists will just be to far behind, to really make it worth carring them.) IF your pure monk I'd use TWF handwraps for anytrash your DPSing or stuff with less dr at tiems when you cna aford to lose a bunch of AC, btu I'd also carry a set of wounding, vorp, and min2 Kamas with you for the times you want thouse efects or in the case of min2 want max AC.

[Craggath]

Interesting, I didn't know about how Quarterstaffs have longer reach than Handwraps, or that Kamas and Tempest is so good. Ty for the input.

And Handwraps and tempest wouldn't work so well because you've only got 10 levels of monk max...I get it.

[Aerendil]

And Handwraps and tempest wouldn't work so well because you've only got 10 levels of monk max...I get it.

Well, put it this way - handwraps excel using stunning fist and quivering palm. For those you may as well just be pure Monk, as Quiv. Palm is a level 15? ability, and high WIS is required for both of those to land in which case pure monk works best anyways.

For vorpal kamas, it's all about the number of attacks since chance of instant kill per attack is low. So something like Tempest + wind stance is ideal since you throw out literally a ton of attacks.

Quarterstaff has it's uses, definitely, especially against anything with DR. Once the THF changes come into effect, this may become a really nice option, especially if you're Warforged. And, as mentioned above, it combines well with Rogue/Acrobat (Rogue12, Monk8 might be a very nice combo in the future, or Rog18/Mnk2).

Depends which way you want to go, but as someone mentioned above, you may find yourself using any or all of the monk weapons at high level, depending on what you need to accomplish.

[Desteria]

Interesting, I didn't know about how Quarterstaffs have longer reach than Handwraps, or that Kamas and Tempest is so good. Ty for the input.

And Handwraps and tempest wouldn't work so well because you've only got 10 levels of monk max...I get it.

they dont work well together because they dont work together at ALLL as intended buy the Dev's the HTH animations are already faster + air stance....
HTH TWF get the attack hooks but does nto get other stuff IE TWD adn tempest type stuff... But you get full off hand STR woohooo, and with enough monnk levels 2d8 and evetualy 2d10 fists.

I'm strongly considerign a future half ork STR TWF HTH monk, sadly air stance will be less str for not being in fire but i think 7.5% , (assuned to be 10% at level 18) attack haste will more then make up for it, I think on a singel target he woudl be rockign damage, and maby even win out agianst uncritable stuff some times. tiem will tell.

[Desteria]

Well, put it this way - handwraps excel using stunning fist and quivering palm. For those you may as well just be pure Monk, as Quiv. Palm is a level 15? ability, and high WIS is required for both of those to land in which case pure monk works best anyways.

For vorpal kamas, it's all about the number of attacks since chance of instant kill per attack is low. So something like Tempest + wind stance is ideal since you throw out literally a ton of attacks.

Quarterstaff has it's uses, definitely, especially against anything with DR. Once the THF changes come into effect, this may become a really nice option, especially if you're Warforged. And, as mentioned above, it combines well with Rogue/Acrobat (Rogue12, Monk8 might be a very nice combo in the future, or Rog18/Mnk2).

Depends which way you want to go, but as someone mentioned above, you may find yourself using any or all of the monk weapons at high level, depending on what you need to accomplish.

see atm i never realyl see Q-staff as worht it, stuff with DR use DULE min2 kamas, i realyl think all monk monks shoudl take TWF feats, as such even if you noramly TWF HTH nothign to hurt you from pullignout kamas for the times they are better IE any tiem you want to wound stuff to death, (prey), vorp stuff, (stroud orthons vod devils etc.), or cant buy pass LARGE dr numbers with any avalible hadwraps, (Harry).

Now the TA2 Q-staff build i mentioned above ya btu then realyl i'm not so much calling him a monk any more hes really a rouge with a little side of monk....
Current encments in game I belive rouge 13 is godo for some reason, (oh to get Improved evation and the 2 str a hit power thats it), monk doent realyl gain any thign form monk 7 or 8 that they dont have at monk6... so untill we know about TA3 rouge13monk6xyz1 is the best fro this build.... in the future if TA3 is crazzy good and monk PRC's blow rouge18monk1-2xyz0-1 might be better... tiem will tel on that one.