Capstone enhancement concerns

[Mithran]

The problem I have with the prospect of giving Paladins Intimidate as a Class Skill is that it would ruin all my builds. I'm currently working to level up Anguirel (anticipate 14 Paladin/2 Rogue) with GTWF, maxed Intimidate and UMD.

Unless there is the introduction of the possibility of reSkilling our builds, changing the basis upon which I make my builds seems unfair.

I've rerolled too many times, now. I'm tired of it, and I won't do it, again.

[Borror0]

The problem I have with the prospect of giving Paladins Intimidate as a Class Skill is that it would ruin all my builds.

You haven't read my post carefully.

You'd shaken all mobs on a successful Intimidate check. That means an extra +2 Ac.

[William_the_Bat]

The obvious answer to multiclasses who miss out on capstones: wait for epic levels!

Capstones are supposed to be nice perks to top off your class with, not uber switches that you are gimped if you don't have. Especially since they are intending there to be multiple useful capstone choices for the same class.

Of course, if they start putting in quests that require not just certain skills or attributes, but particular builds, then we'll have something to complain about.

---

As for intimidate, I agree that something more should be done. They added an enhancement that lets you get more aggro from one monster for a limited time... I don't know if I'd even call it a good start... but at least it shows they are considering the problem. I think it makes sense that the paladin should have aggro management by divine ability rather than skill, but I think they were way too timid in it's implementation.

[SynfoolaCMT]

My guess is that the Paladin defender pre will give a substantial bonus to intimidate which will in part remedy the paladin lacking the intimidate as a class skill issue. What this means for current paladin one splash fighter builds is they will have the highest intimidate in the game which gives people a reason to sill splash fighter, but paladins will also have a reason to stay pure with these capstone enhancements. I feel alot more sympathy for all the people who splashed 6 levels of ranger because my gut feeling is that they are all going to get nerfed on builds they made with information that has been out there for a year.

I really hope something like this happens, MM. Don't get me wrong, I'm not against MC'ing and it may just be the v2 PnP in me talking, but Paladin always seemed like a class that you never left. I really want to stay pure with the one I just built.

[llevenbaxx]

Have to be careful with these imo.

I do realize that the typical splash rog2/mnk2/ftr2 etc do give a very nice boost to most builds. Pureclass builds should have options for making up the ground but there will be a tendency to overpower them imo. Also think of the MC characters who arent the cookie cutter builds/combos... These characters are already behind(mostly due to Turbine/DDO adds/lack of adds), the gish character for example(wiz8/ftr8, clr11/ftr5 for ex w/e), without PrC support and a number of missing spells this character is already below the curve even by comparison to PnP.

Most MC combos are already less powerful that pureclass due to a missing this(spells) or added that(enhancement sys.). Would hate for these type of characters, who really get no support, to fall further behind.

[hu-flung-pu]

All I know is, there's going to be some very ****ed off paladins out there who splashed two levels.

[Dexxaan]

All I know is, there's going to be some very ****ed off paladins out there who splashed two levels.

I agree.

Splashing ONLY 2 levels on a Paladin is a mistake.

14 4 2 or 15 4 1 FTW!

[hu-flung-pu]

I agree.

Splashing ONLY 2 levels on a Paladin is a mistake.

14 4 2 or 15 4 1 FTW!

Until you run in to a pure Paladin using divine might 5, zeal, maximized exaulted smites critting for close to a thousand damage, and have a base STR in the mid 30's.

Edit: And we haven't seen what the capstone and PrE's for paladins are yet.

[Dexxaan]

Until you run in to a pure Paladin using divine might 5, zeal, maximized exaulted smites critting for close to a thousand damage, and have a base STR in the mid 30's.

Edit: And we haven't seen what the capstone and PrE's for paladins are yet.

Absolutely nothing to argue:

* Divine Might 5 CHA req´d 22 or 24? (+6 Tomes better start dropping)

* Zeal: Can be achieved with only 14 levels, the current "Sweet Spot IMO"

* "Maximized" Exhalted Smites? Not joking...What´s a "Maximized" ES?

* 1000 Dmg? I´d love to see the #´s for that. (I mean it)

* 30 STR Paladin is easily attainable in combination with a Base 20-24 CHA? Maybe by end game and subject to the previously mentioned "Tomes of Plenty", (/Barf...these +4 and higher Tomes make all builds viable to a certain degree....removing the cost/benefit factor in a design.....too bad.)

** BTW: What are the other Stats on this Champion?

* Capstone? Let´s see if they can top this:

Example: 4 Fighter levels and 2 Rogue levels give you a lot more than a capstone can offer:

* Four Feats - Thats (I repeat 4) which you need and should have if you are anything other than a "Healer Support Player "

* +1 DEX bonus to Armor and Tower Shield AC enhancement.

* Huge starting Skill Points so you can jump onto a sidewalk in Full Plate and Shield.

* A chance to pop open a chest or lock.

* An extra 1d6 Sneak Attack Damage.

* Tower Shield use at no charge (And u don´t have to wear that VW beetle looking thing from the Reaver loot run)

* +1 to STR Enhancement

* +1 to DEX Enhancement

* Intimidate Enhancement

* Permanent Evasion or "Evasion Mode" as Quest requires.

Price paid:

* -1 BAB

* -8 HP´s

* A Paladin Level 4 and a level 5 Spell. (Not much loss in L4...maybe Level 5 rocks?)

* Probably a few hundred points difference in LOH´s, but since your AC, DPS and Skills are SOOOO much better you may not be needing them in the first place!

GTG for now...there´s gotta be a ton of benefits I forgot, but I believe the issue is closed, and if I am wrong...and the paladin Capstone is sickly uber.....then I´ll roll one, but until then..... I´ll take whats been shown anyday.

[maddmatt70]

Absolutely nothing to argue:

* Divine Might 5 CHA req´d 22 or 24? (+6 Tomes better start dropping)

* Zeal: Can be achieved with only 14 levels, the current "Sweet Spot IMO"

* "Maximized" Exhalted Smites? Not joking...What´s a "Maximized" ES?

* 1000 Dmg? I´d love to see the #´s for that. (I mean it)

* 30 STR Paladin is easily attainable in combination with a Base 20-24 CHA? Maybe by end game and subject to the previously mentioned "Tomes of Plenty", (/Barf...these +4 and higher Tomes make all builds viable to a certain degree....removing the cost/benefit factor in a design.....too bad.)

** BTW: What are the other Stats on this Champion?

* Capstone? Let´s see if they can top this:

Example: 4 Fighter levels and 2 Rogue levels give you a lot more than a capstone can offer:

* Four Feats - Thats (I repeat 4) which you need and should have if you are anything other than a "Healer Support Player "

* +1 DEX bonus to Armor and Tower Shield AC enhancement.

* Huge starting Skill Points so you can jump onto a sidewalk in Full Plate and Shield.

* A chance to pop open a chest or lock.

* An extra 1d6 Sneak Attack Damage.

* Tower Shield use at no charge (And u don´t have to wear that VW beetle looking thing from the Reaver loot run)

* +1 to STR Enhancement

* +1 to DEX Enhancement

* Intimidate Enhancement

* Permanent Evasion or "Evasion Mode" as Quest requires.

Price paid:

* -1 BAB

* -8 HP´s

* A Paladin Level 4 and a level 5 Spell. (Not much loss in L4...maybe Level 5 rocks?)

* Probably a few hundred points difference in LOH´s, but since your AC, DPS and Skills are SOOOO much better you may not be needing them in the first place!

GTG for now...there´s gotta be a ton of benefits I forgot, but I believe the issue is closed, and if I am wrong...and the paladin Capstone is sickly uber.....then I´ll roll one, but until then..... I´ll take whats been shown anyday.

18 levels of paladin is another sweet spot not unlike 14 levels of paladin. If you look at kensai (level 18 gets a fighter +1 to crit range) and assume that the paladin pre will be similar in structure 18 could give a huge boon. I would pay 3 feats to get a +1 to crit range, +1 to hit and damage, and +2 on crits to confirm and do crit damage without too much issue. I don't know much about the monk class so I don't how the new monk capstone extrapolates to paladin and if an equivalent capstone is worth 2 non paladin levels or not?

[Dexxaan]

I don't know much about the monk class so I don't how the new monk capstone extrapolates to paladin and if an equivalent capstone is worth 2 non paladin levels or not?

Neither do I at the moment. All I´m saying is that the "Paladin Capstone" better be sick because many of the bonuses you pointed out are already worked into a L14 Paladin one way or the other via better Stats, AC, Weapon Choice via a Feat or Imp. Crit for a 2nd weapon type?, higher UMD, Intimidate, and so forth....(Forgot Attack speed boosted via Fighter attack speed boosts....that´s a HUGE DPS boost over a period of 20" x 5)

Maybe we get to see Paladin Capstone this week?

[Gunga]

You guys are pretty funny.

None of you remember when Rangers couldn't get into a group except as the piker in a Reaver?

You know what changed that? Tempest. One little enhancement worth 4 APs.

To say that anything a capstone enhancement offers can't possibly be worth staying pure is a bit hasty, don't ya think?

[Borror0]

None of you remember when Rangers couldn't get into a group except as the piker in a Reaver?

You know what changed that? Tempest. One little enhancement worth 4 APs.

Rangers always kicked butt, but had a bad reputation. Tempest I, Ram's Might, the disparition of the nuking sorcerer combined with a small sample of creature type lead to rangers becoming as powerful as they are now.

Comparing paladins to rangers is silly.

[maddmatt70]

Rangers always kicked butt, but had a bad reputation. Tempest I, Ram's Might, the disparition of the nuking sorcerer combined with a small sample of creature type lead to rangers becoming as powerful as they are now.

Comparing paladins to rangers is silly.

I agree with Gunga more then yourself. Yes, there are alot less archers in ddo then there were a couple of years ago, but irregardless tempest made a big difference for rangers. That really raised their dps in comparison to other classes. Zeal, improved smites, and divine might is going to do the same for paladins it will take time though just like tempest changing peoples perception of rangers also took time.

Edit: Nobody knows what the capstones will look like for all the classes and one of them could be overpowered hence significantly altering that class.

[Gunga]

Rangers always kicked butt.

Lots of silly stuff on these forums, eh?

[Dexxaan]

Neither do I at the moment. All I´m saying is that the "Paladin Capstone" better be sick because many of the bonuses you pointed out are already worked into a L14 Paladin one way or the other via better Stats, AC, Weapon Choice via a Feat or Imp. Crit for a 2nd weapon type?, higher UMD, Intimidate, and so forth....(Forgot Attack speed boosted via Fighter attack speed boosts....that´s a HUGE DPS boost over a period of 20" x 5)

Maybe we get to see Paladin Capstone this week?

To say that anything a capstone enhancement offers can't possibly be worth staying pure is a bit hasty, don't ya think?

Who said that? (I obviously missed it)

I remember recommending reading glasses to you a looooong time ago Gunga. Maybe it´s been so long I´m the one needing them. Mail em to me will ya?

[Gunga]

Who said that? (I obviously missed it)

I remember recommending reading glasses to you a looooong time ago Gunga. Maybe it´s been so long I´m the one needing them. Mail em to me will ya?

Impressive color work there, Dex, with the yellow and all. Maybe the bright colors are affecting your vision, but how could I really know.

I think that you should build anything you think is uber. I would caution any prudent thinkers out there to take their time with making a decision on how to build a toon right now, not knowing what will be available to them just around the corner.

Hate to see you toss your gimped mulitclass pali out after being pwned by a pure class w/capstone. Twenty levels worth of xp and bound raid loot gives the term "reroll" some heft.

EDIT: To answer your post more directly, you aren't the only person posting in this thread. But I do think that you are pretty funny, for obvious reasons.

[Uska]

The capstone they have showed us for monk is ok but nothing to cry about if you have splashed another class, the enhancement classes are better and you should be able to get most if not all of their benifits unless you splashed to much

[hu-flung-pu]

Absolutely nothing to argue:

* Divine Might 5 CHA req´d 22 or 24? (+6 Tomes better start dropping)

* Zeal: Can be achieved with only 14 levels, the current "Sweet Spot IMO"

* "Maximized" Exhalted Smites? Not joking...What´s a "Maximized" ES?

* 1000 Dmg? I´d love to see the #´s for that. (I mean it)

* 30 STR Paladin is easily attainable in combination with a Base 20-24 CHA? Maybe by end game and subject to the previously mentioned "Tomes of Plenty", (/Barf...these +4 and higher Tomes make all builds viable to a certain degree....removing the cost/benefit factor in a design.....too bad.)

** BTW: What are the other Stats on this Champion?

* Capstone? Let´s see if they can top this:

Example: 4 Fighter levels and 2 Rogue levels give you a lot more than a capstone can offer:

* Four Feats - Thats (I repeat 4) which you need and should have if you are anything other than a "Healer Support Player "

* +1 DEX bonus to Armor and Tower Shield AC enhancement.

* Huge starting Skill Points so you can jump onto a sidewalk in Full Plate and Shield.

* A chance to pop open a chest or lock.

* An extra 1d6 Sneak Attack Damage.

* Tower Shield use at no charge (And u don´t have to wear that VW beetle looking thing from the Reaver loot run)

* +1 to STR Enhancement

* +1 to DEX Enhancement

* Intimidate Enhancement

* Permanent Evasion or "Evasion Mode" as Quest requires.

Price paid:

* -1 BAB

* -8 HP´s

* A Paladin Level 4 and a level 5 Spell. (Not much loss in L4...maybe Level 5 rocks?)

* Probably a few hundred points difference in LOH´s, but since your AC, DPS and Skills are SOOOO much better you may not be needing them in the first place!

GTG for now...there´s gotta be a ton of benefits I forgot, but I believe the issue is closed, and if I am wrong...and the paladin Capstone is sickly uber.....then I´ll roll one, but until then..... I´ll take whats been shown anyday.

Heh, alright then, I do hope you enjoy playing a gimped Paladin in the future. Two fighter feats, intimidate as a class skill, and an average of 3 extra damage which is worthless if you're an intimidate tank. But hey at least you showed me.

Consider yourself warned for deviating from the path of righteousness.

[Dexxaan]

Heh, alright then, I do hope you enjoy playing a gimped Paladin in the future. Two fighter feats, intimidate as a class skill, and an average of 3 extra damage which is worthless if you're an intimidate tank. But hey at least you showed me.

Consider yourself warned for deviating from the path of righteousness.

Consider yourself needing reading glasses also. FOUR feats..... FOUR.

And I also ammended the Long list that your Capstone is going to have to beat with Fighter Attack Speed Boost, which stacks with the Zeal Spell that a L14 Sweet Spot Paladin would have.

** Do the math of 100 seconds with 20% speed increase thats stacked with Zeal and Haste. (4 Fighter levels = 20% Boosts)

While you may not enjoy being wrong in public for making hasty statements without backup info....it´s even worse to climb on a white horse and gallop off into the sunset after trying to make use of sarcasm in your closing statement like a 9 yr old cowboy wielding a .44 Revolver.

Happy Hunting dude.