Monk Capstone: Serenity Preview

[Chaos000]

to think tho. if the paladin capstone included a +10 intimidate then pure pali intimitanks starts to become more viable then it's current incarnation

as a side note: unlimited x/meditation per day for the monk would've been nice at lvl 20...

[Aspenor]

to think tho. if the paladin capstone included a +10 intimidate then pure pali intimitanks starts to become more viable then it's current incarnation

why would a capstone enhancement give a buff to a non-class skill?

I don't see this one happening.

[Borror0]

I don't know, I am thinking the reason the -xp penalty was not applied as far too many players who like to multi-class would be in an uproar if that was started.

That would be annoying. That is all.

It wouldn't balance multiclassed builds. It would just annoy them.

to think tho. if the paladin capstone included a +10 intimidate then pure pali intimitanks starts to become more viable then it's current incarnation

That is a poor fix to the problem.

I posted a suggestion many times on these forums on how to modify Diplomacy to give paladins and monks an intimidate option. It also included a suggestion on how to modify Intimidate so that change wouldn't end up punishing those who have spent points into Intimidate. Simply put, Diplomacy gets divided in two. First is the current identical to the version of Diplomacy, second is like the current Intimidate.

As for the Intimidate skill, a successful Intimidate check makes foes shaken.

That would really address the problem.

[Gratch]

As someone who has half pure-class and half multi-class builds (my monk is multi-class), this seems like a pretty good capstone. It gives something to pure monks that pushes their monkishness, but it's not the end-all be-all must-have enhancement for everyone with some monk.

That said, to make this capstone enh useful, the top tier monk ki-costing abilities/attacks really need to do something... "useful" or who cares about extra Ki.

I'm more interested to see what they do for wiz/sorc/clerics, who will max out the spell levels at 17/18 to encourage going to 20. (so not everyone is wiz18/rogue2, cleric18/monk2, etc..).

[RobbinB]

As someone who has half pure-class and half multi-class builds (my monk is multi-class), this seems like a pretty good capstone. It gives something to pure monks that pushes their monkishness, but it's not the end-all be-all must-have enhancement for everyone with some monk.

That said, to make this capstone enh useful, the top tier monk ki-costing abilities/attacks really need to do something... "useful" or who cares about extra Ki.

I'm more interested to see what they do for wiz/sorc/clerics, who will max out the spell levels at 17/18 to encourage going to 20. (so not everyone is wiz18/rogue2, cleric18/monk2, etc..).

I would rate this capstone as weak. I have a pure 16 monk currently. As Gratch says, who cares about ki, I just need enough for occasional use of fists of light and meditation between major fights. This capstone along with 2 pts SR do not compare with 2 levels of fighter (for feats) as far as I can tell. Deciding factor might be if the monk class feat for 20th level is changed from dr 5/magic (is that correct?) to a blanket dr 5 - that would give me a much stronger incentive to stay pure.

[Borror0]

I would rate this capstone as weak.

I find it ironic that some people rate the enhancement.

It's the kind of thing you cannot know of its power without testing. Nor do we know how powerful the level 18 stances will be.

[Aspenor]

Weak?

We're lucky we're even getting capstone enhancements.

Ya know what level 20 rogues get?

Nothing.

Ya know what level 20 clerics get?

Nothing.

Ya know what level 20 sorcerers get?

Nothing.

Sinking in yet?

[Borror0]

Ya know what level 20 rogues get?

Nothing.

Ya know what level 20 clerics get?

Nothing.

Ya know what level 20 sorcerers get?

Nothing.

Isn't it a little early to conclude that?

[frugal_gourmet]

Eladrin from page 1:

"every class will gain a Capstone Enhancement to celebrate reaching 20 levels in the class."

[Chaos000]

That would be annoying. That is all.

It wouldn't balance multiclassed builds. It would just annoy them.

That is a poor fix to the problem.

you're right. a cross class skill bonus wouldn't be the best option.

infinite smite evils on the other hand....

[sephiroth1084]

Isn't it a little early to conclude that?

I think he's probably referring to PnP, where most classes have little or no reason to go pure all the way to 20 (or often past 6). Monk, druid, barbarian, and, to a lesser degree, bard and ranger (and to a MUCH lesser degree, paladin) are the only classes from the PHB that have a level 20 ability. Then, for most of those classes, there is too little leading up to that, or the ability does too little, to warrant going 20 levels.

[frugal_gourmet]

I think he's probably referring to PnP, where most classes have little or no reason to go pure all the way to 20 (or often past 6). Monk, druid, barbarian, and, to a lesser degree, bard and ranger (and to a MUCH lesser degree, paladin) are the only classes from the PHB that have a level 20 ability. Then, for most of those classes, there is too little leading up to that, or the ability does too little, to warrant going 20 levels.

They also have little reason *to* splash a core class other than rogue or fighter.

In core D&D, anyone sacrificing a single caster level of a spellcasting class is giving up a significant amount of power. Wizards, sorcerers, clerics, druids, and bards, for instance, should all be pure classed if the goal is to maximize power.

[Aspenor]

Frugal,
That's only assuming you only have access to the core classes, granted, we don't even have THAT much....no druids and artificers here.

Generally speaking any class that increases your main caster level is better to take that going 20/x.

[Aspenor]

Isn't it a little early to conclude that?

im talking about PnP, they will have to give some boosts over pnp to make lvl 20X attractive.

generally speaking unless you are playing core-only, there is very little reason (read as: no reason whatsoever) to take any core class past 5 or 6.

[Inspire]

I would rate this capstone as weak.

I would disagree with this, the way im understanding this concept is going to make my monk alot more powerful and probably my best solo toon.

I have a pure 16 monk currently. As Gratch says, who cares about ki, I just need enough for occasional use of fists of light and meditation between major fights.

If your not using "Ki" for almost everything your monk could be alot strong than the way you are playing her now(?) Ie; Wholeness of Body, Stunning Fist, Unbalancing Strike, Quivering Palm, Fists of Light, Eagles Talon, *Any elemental 2d6(2d6 Crit.), Etc., will add to your effectiveness/DPS on your monk.

This capstone along with 2 pts SR do not compare with 2 levels of fighter (for feats) as far as I can tell. Deciding factor might be if the monk class feat for 20th level is changed from dr 5/magic (is that correct?) to a blanket dr 5 - that would give me a much stronger incentive to stay pure.

Monks also become Lawful outsiders at level 20, and gain all of thier immunities. Just food for thought, Im sure you play your monk quite well to how you want her to be played.

[Mhykke]

Monks also become Lawful outsiders at level 20, and gain all of thier immunities. Just food for thought, Im sure you play your monk quite well to how you want her to be played.

Not to mention the feat empty body at lvl 19, although who knows how, and if, turbine will implement it. I don't think it'd be hard to do, basically just like displacement. You go ethereal for certain periods, mobs have a 50% miss chance unless using ghost touch weapons. Although now that I think about it, it should work against red names, right? :O

[Inspire]

Not to mention the feat empty body at lvl 19, although who knows how, and if, turbine will implement it. I don't think it'd be hard to do, basically just like displacement. You go ethereal for certain periods, mobs have a 50% miss chance unless using ghost touch weapons. Although now that I think about it, it should work against red names, right? :O

Was wondering the exact same thing the other day. Will be interesting to know what they do with it !

[Milolyen]

The way I read this is ... lets say you are over the amount of Ki and lose it at -3 per tick ... with this you would only lose it at -2 per tick. So when you are down to loseing it at -1 per tick with this you would not lose any and then if you are below your alotted Ki you actually gain one per tick untill you reach that alotted amount.

While I don't have a high lvl monk yet (he is only like lvl 10) I can see this as being a pretty sweet bonus but as others have said there are also other reasons for staying pure monk. These capstone enhancements I think are more about giving people more and tougher choices when it comes to Pure versus Multi. With the PRE's 6/12/18 it is not really a tough decision to go say 18 fighter / 2 rogue(or monk) or 18 pally / 2 rogue(or monk) for evasion and with no "capstone" there is no reason NOT to do that and therefor there is no real "choice" about it. This is about giving people choices and last I heard that is what people enjoy and ask for in this game is it not?

Milolyen

[Mhykke]

The way I read this is ... lets say you are over the amount of Ki and lose it at -3 per tick ... with this you would only lose it at -2 per tick. So when you are down to loseing it at -1 per tick with this you would not lose any and then if you are below your alotted Ki you actually gain one per tick untill you reach that alotted amount.

While I don't have a high lvl monk yet (he is only like lvl 10) I can see this as being a pretty sweet bonus but as others have said there are also other reasons for staying pure monk. These capstone enhancements I think are more about giving people more and tougher choices when it comes to Pure versus Multi. With the PRE's 6/12/18 it is not really a tough decision to go say 18 fighter / 2 rogue(or monk) or 18 pally / 2 rogue(or monk) for evasion and with no "capstone" there is no reason NOT to do that and therefor there is no real "choice" about it. This is about giving people choices and last I heard that is what people enjoy and ask for in this game is it not?

Milolyen

Good post.

[RobbinB]

I would disagree with this, the way im understanding this concept is going to make my monk alot more powerful and probably my best solo toon.

If your not using "Ki" for almost everything your monk could be alot strong than the way you are playing her now(?) Ie; Wholeness of Body, Stunning Fist, Unbalancing Strike, Quivering Palm, Fists of Light, Eagles Talon, *Any elemental 2d6(2d6 Crit.), Etc., will add to your effectiveness/DPS on your monk.

Monks also become Lawful outsiders at level 20, and gain all of thier immunities. Just food for thought, Im sure you play your monk quite well to how you want her to be played.

My monk is undoubtedly my strongest solo toon, but the capstone skill will only make it marginally better. Then again, I mostly dual wield kamas. I'm betting you are more geared towards handwraps, so maybe that's where we are different. With respect to some of the other skills you mentioned:

Wholeness of body - I think this is what I meant by meditation, I use it for getting hp back after battles (when my ki bar is often very full). Since limit of usefulness is more often than not due to timer reset not ki bar, additional ki won't be that helpful.

Stunning fist - I fight with kamas so stunning fist isn't of much use to me (I can see the potential utility for unarmed specialists though)

Quivering palm - can't use with my kamas

Fists of light - awesome skill, use it all the time, but I'm almost never in a situation where lack of ki limits me from using it

I experimented at earlier monk levels with lots of the skills and finishing moves and found them to be somewhat underwhelming. I pretty much only use fists of light, wholeness of body, and abundant step at endgame. In addition to saving me from carpal tunnel syndrome I feel that this simplified approach has actually made me a better monk. Simplify your button bar, focus on the skills and weapons/equipment that you really need to get the job done, get rid of the fluff. Might be a different situation for unarmed specialists though. (Also, does this mean the enhancement is in fact unbalanced in favor of a particular type of monk over another?)

As for the "benefits" of being a lawful outsider at lvl 20, it would be helpful to get a little more information as to what that actually means. What immunities specifically?