Monk Capstone: Serenity Preview

[Aerendil]

I believe we should respect all classes.

Lol, thanks Mhykke.
I chortled. Didn't quite guffaw, though. But it was definitely a chortle.

[Mhykke]

Lol, thanks Mhykke.
I chortled. Didn't quite guffaw, though. But it was definitely a chortle.

[EightyFour]

Have to stop you right here ... What "balance"? The way I see things right now is that in current game there is next to NO reason to stay pure for most classes because there is a LOT that can be gained via Multiclassing versus very little to be gained through staying pure. Rogue can throw in a few lvls of fighter for extra feats, str, hps and a higher BaB and loose what? a few skill points which they generally have plenty of? Fighter can throw in 2 lvls of rogue and loose what? 1 bab, a few hps, a class feat which they get plenty of and gain what? Evasion, possibly umd or other rogue skills, sneak attack dmg when they don't have agroe, I miss anything? This is just a couple examples I am sure others can point out more with paladin, bards and most of the others. Seems to me the "balance" is already knocked way off and capstones at lvl 20 is a way to bring it back in line.

*edit*
Added after reading more of your post. Your "candy" came when you got the beniefts of multiclassing. List off the reasons you chose to multiclass ... that would be your "candy". Those that chose to stay pure didn't get that "candy" and wont get it. They just get something else later. Two kids get a candy bar just outside the store ... one eats it right away and the other eats it when they get home. What gives the first one the right to complain about not having a candy bar when the second one starts eating his?

*second edit*
Your also seeing this as a "reward" which it really isn't ... it is a lvl 20 enhancement same as the lvl 1 - 19 enhancements it just requires you to not multiclass. Same thing happened with crit rage 2 when it first came out and the cap was lvl 14. You had to be a pure barb to get it. Should a 12 fighter/4 barb have access to crit rage 2 because he has barb in him? No. Should a lvl 6 ranger/10 barb have access to all the FE bonuses just because he has 6 lvls of ranger? No. Should a lvl 18 fighter/2 monk get access to a lvl 20 fighter enhancement just because he has 18 lvls of fighter in him? No. Should they create enhancements from lvl 1-20? Yes.

Milolyen

It is a reward, but only because it is exclusive to pure classes. But I'll think on what you have said here.

Also it's more like two kids got candy from their parents, one kid got his first and got a tootsie roll, the second kid got his later and got a butterfinger. All right, all candy aside here because I don't want to trun this is to a debate about what class got what candy.

Their are some characters that got some benefits from multi classing, like UMD for example on a tank, that tank spends 2 skill points every level to make that worth while, and tanks don't have many skill points to spend, that tank gave up two other skills that he/she could max out plus one bab for that maxed out skill in umd, the only thing a pure build gives up is the fact that they did not multi class. Plus the multi class has to cut off enhancement lines and other such, for every class you pick up of another class you have to trade something in exchange, normally you would think that this would be a good trade. Like the fighter that gives up 3 levels of fighter and replaces it with paladin, he loses two feats but gains four nice abilities, fear immunity, disease immunity, a couple of lay on hands, and the ability to use his cha to help his saves if he has cha to do that. A nice trade, but what if the fighter capstone is greater than the trade for the immunity to fear which can be replaced, immunity to disease which can be replaced. Is two lay on hands and maybe a +3 to +5 stacking saves bonus worth the fighter capstone, we shall see.

I'm saying here is that the multi classes earned their right to those extra ability's, I don't know if to me, pure classes have earned their way, they didn't trade anything for these ability's, they just made the choice not to trade a level or two, that's their only trade, I just don't feel that it is a very balanced trade, it maybe at some point that it well be better to be pure class over multi class.

Anyway, I'll wait and see, it looks as though it's already gonna go through, so it's not like any amount of me saying that I think this maybe a bad thing is going to change it.

[Mhykke]

. Plus the multi class has to cut off enhancement lines and other such, for every class you pick up of another class you have to trade something in exchange, normally you would think that this would be a good trade. Like the fighter that gives up 3 levels of fighter and replaces it with paladin, he loses two feats but gains four nice abilities, fear immunity, disease immunity, a couple of lay on hands, and the ability to use his cha to help his saves if he has cha to do that. A nice trade, but what if the fighter capstone is greater than the trade for the immunity to fear which can be replaced, immunity to disease which can be replaced. Is two lay on hands and maybe a +3 to +5 stacking saves bonus worth the fighter capstone, we shall see.

I'm saying here is that the multi classes earned their right to those extra ability's, I don't know if to me, pure classes have earned their way, they didn't trade anything for these ability's, they just made the choice not to trade a level or two, that's their only trade, I just don't feel that it is a very balanced trade, it maybe at some point that it well be better to be pure class over multi class.

Anyway, I'll wait and see, it looks as though it's already gonna go through, so it's not like any amount of me saying that I think this maybe a bad thing is going to change it.

In your tank example, the tank chose to multiclass. Now, he can use heal scrolls or wands, or any kind of equipment. That's a pretty huge ability. If we assume the fighter enhancements to be equal in power to the cleric and monk capstones, I'd be hard pressed to say that one gives a much bigger advantage than another.

As for cutting off enhancement lines, that's what the character does when he multiclasses. When multiclassing, that person has already decided the benefits are greater from the multiclass than not cutting off the enhancement lines. And there's a flip side to that. While they cut off enhancements in their class, they open up new enhancements when they multiclass. It's not just a detriment, but also a bonus.

As for multiclasses earning it and pures not trading anything away....You're splitting hairs. Of course pure classes gave something up/traded something away. They gave up the abilities they'd get from multiclassing. They traded away those abilities. Using examples, a lot of people splash 2 rogue or monk, for a variety of reasons, but one of them is evasion. If other capstones are equivalent in power to the 2 already announced, none of them will be as great a benefit as evasion.

[Aspenor]

I'm saying here is that the multi classes earned their right to those extra ability's, I don't know if to me, pure classes have earned their way, they didn't trade anything for these ability's, they just made the choice not to trade a level or two, that's their only trade, I just don't feel that it is a very balanced trade, it maybe at some point that it well be better to be pure class over multi class.

it seems pretty clear you dont understand how overpowered multiclassing is in DDO....

These capstone enhancements will pretty much be required to give any melee'r a reason to keep their classes pure.

Level 20 Monk ability - not all that useful in DDO
Level 20 Fighter Bonus Feat - not all that useful compared to what is gained from a 1 or 2 level splash
Level 20 Rogue - there is no reason to have a pure level 20 rogue in DnD
Level 20 Paladin - There is no reason whatsoever in DND to take level 20 paladin (+1 smite per day, woohoo)
Level 20 Ranger - 5th favored enemy...woohoo....uh, monk splash is way more powerful than this, heck, so is rogue
Level 20 Barbarian - happens to be the only melee class with a useful 20th level ability

[Mhykke]

it seems pretty clear you dont understand how overpowered multiclassing is in DDO....

These capstone enhancements will pretty much be required to give any melee'r a reason to keep their classes pure.

Level 20 Monk ability - not all that useful in DDO
Level 20 Fighter Bonus Feat - not all that useful compared to what is gained from a 1 or 2 level splash
Level 20 Rogue - there is no reason to have a pure level 20 rogue in DnD
Level 20 Paladin - There is no reason whatsoever in DND to take level 20 paladin (+1 smite per day, woohoo)
Level 20 Ranger - 5th favored enemy...woohoo....uh, monk splash is way more powerful than this, heck, so is rogue
Level 20 Barbarian - happens to be the only melee class with a useful 20th level ability

But even for barbs, is an extra 2 str and another will save much better than splashing 2 rogue for evasion? Evasion barbs are pretty beastly now.

[Aspenor]

But even for barbs, is an extra 2 str and another will save much better than splashing 2 rogue for evasion? Evasion barbs are pretty beastly now.

that's not my call to compare it, really. im just saying, barbs are the only melee class that gets anything at level 20 worth having.

[Borror0]

But even for barbs, is an extra 2 str and another will save much better than splashing 2 rogue for evasion? Evasion barbs are pretty beastly now.

At least you can justify going 20 barbarian. Try to justify going 20 rogue. You can't.

[Mhykke]

that's not my call to compare it, really. im just saying, barbs are the only melee class that gets anything at level 20 worth having.

I'm not calling it either way (I'm sticking w/ barb).....

Just pointing out that while barbs may get something other melees don't at 20, the thing they get is arguably not as good as the multiclass splash.

[Borror0]

I'm saying here is that the multi classes earned their right to those extra ability's, I don't know if to me, pure classes have earned their way, they didn't trade anything for these ability's, they just made the choice not to trade a level or two, that's their only trade, I just don't feel that it is a very balanced trade, it maybe at some point that it well be better to be pure class over multi class.

Pure classes sacrificed something, the same way multiclassed character sacrificed.

Multiclassed characters sacrificed whatever they could have gotten by staying pure the same way pure breeds sacrificed what they could have gotten by multiclassing. In DDO, nearly all pure class sacrificed more than multiclassed characters as multiclassed characters are much stronger than pure class characters nearly all the time.

It's simply putting some fairness in the system and creating more options.

[Arkat]

Try to justify going 20 rogue. You can't.

/signed

[Milolyen]

it seems pretty clear you dont understand how overpowered multiclassing is in DDO....

These capstone enhancements will pretty much be required to give any melee'r a reason to keep their classes pure.

Level 20 Monk ability - not all that useful in DDO
Level 20 Fighter Bonus Feat - not all that useful compared to what is gained from a 1 or 2 level splash
Level 20 Rogue - there is no reason to have a pure level 20 rogue in DnD
Level 20 Paladin - There is no reason whatsoever in DND to take level 20 paladin (+1 smite per day, woohoo)
Level 20 Ranger - 5th favored enemy...woohoo....uh, monk splash is way more powerful than this, heck, so is rogue
Level 20 Barbarian - happens to be the only melee class with a useful 20th level ability

I just wanted to quote this for emphases, specially the first line.

In game currently, Most decently built multi-class chars are far better than pure class. If you are looking to maximize dps, ac, survivability then nearly every single char builder out there will direct you to build a multiclass char every time. Don't believe me? Search the last 3 months worth of build requests. I am willing to bet that over 90% of the time it will be a Multiclass char ... Why? because the benefit FAR outweigh the cost of multi-classing.

Milolyen
*Edit* "Directed to Eightyfour" and capstone enhancements are no more of a "reward" than any other enhancement out there. I ask again should a lvl 12 fighter/4 barb have access to crit rage 2? Because from what you are saying you think "Ya he could have gone 2 fighter/14 barb and get crit rage2 but he chose not to and it isn't fair to 'reward' the person that did choose 2 x/14 barb with crit rage 2 and not the 12 fighter/4 barb."

[Inspire]

Try to justify going 20 rogue. You can't.

Do you know the Rogue capstone yet? Edit; My mistake.

[Borror0]

Do you know the Rogue capstone yet?

I'm talking about PnP.

[RobbinB]

Monks become native outsiders, not lawful outsiders....

Just thought I'd point that out.

They gain DR 10/magic, and are treated as outsiders for purposes of determining effects of spells, i.e. you are immune to hold person, charm person, dominate person, etc. (you are not a "person").

In PnP that sounds pretty good, but I dont' think that would stop me from multiclassing in DDO. Between SR and high saves I don't really have to worry too much about charm and hold spells in the first place. As for DR 10/magic, in terms of damage comparison shouldn't that be like 15/magic or 20/magic in DDO to be comparable? And wouldn't it still be useless since lots (or most?) mobs would have "magic" weapons?

I think a flat 10/- would be fair (and I don't think overpowered) and combined with the monk capstone, yeah that would keep me pure. Even a DR 5/- would be ok. I'd have to weigh all the benefits out.

[Inspire]

I'm talking about PnP.

Mb.

[feynman]

Serenity
Prereq: Level 20 Monk, 74 Action points spent
Cost: 2 Action Points
Benefit: You are a paragon of understanding and serenity. Your Concentration is increased by 10 and your centered ki generation is increased by 1.

...

Let us know what you think!

I wish I had known that you guys were going to screw up the capstones this badly; I'm going to delete my 16 monk and roll a 1 monk/6 ranger/9 rogue.

[rimble]

I wish I had known that you guys were going to screw up the capstones this badly; I'm going to delete my 16 monk and roll a 1 monk/6 ranger/9 rogue.

Well, I dunno about all that, but it is just kinda more overkill, at least for my character. He's already gonna have (well, he already DOES have) high Ki generation from Fire Stance, and Tier IV may even give him MORE, and then the capstone MORE again...ugh...too much Ki! I guess 10 more Concentration is kinda cute, I like being able to maintain a slightly higher base Ki for random Abundant Steps and being pre-loaded before a fight, but even that is just more overkill to an extent.

At least level 20 will offer other interesting things aside from this capstone, which is still so cheap I'll probably take it anyways.

[feynman]

Well, I dunno about all that, but it is just kinda more overkill, at least for my character. He's already gonna have (well, he already DOES have) high Ki generation from Fire Stance, and Tier IV may even give him MORE, and then the capstone MORE again...ugh...too much Ki! I guess 10 more Concentration is kinda cute, I like being able to maintain a slightly higher base Ki for random Abundant Steps and being pre-loaded before a fight, but even that is just more overkill to an extent.

At least level 20 will offer other interesting things aside from this capstone, which is still so cheap I'll probably take it anyways.

Right, but the only reason to build a pure monk was that the upper-level monk abilities were phenomenal in PnP; you can call our abilities many things, but not phenomenal.

Basically, I noticed 3 months ago that my 28-point fighter/ranger/rogue was a better character than my 32-point monk in every sense of the word, and my monk was as good as, if not much better than, every other monk I ran into.

Abundant step is very nice, and making TWF work with unarmed was a positive step, but after that, we are just rangers with crappy weapons.

Frankly, I'm a little miffed about wasting so much time on a pure monk; anything after 1 level of monk is a waste.

[Borror0]

Basically, I noticed 3 months ago that my 28-point fighter/ranger/rogue was a better character than my 32-point monk in every sense of the word, and my monk was as good as, if not much better than, every other monk I ran into.

I would be surprised. If your character is mainly fighter, your monk is probably better. If he is TWF, that is.