Fighter Kensai Preview

[Griphon]

So..

Have any of you people who have tried out the stuff at the new 'Preview' server tried this PrE?

Is it exactly as described w/o any changes in requirements or additions to power levels?
Does it still come off extremly costly and under powered?

[moorewr]

So..

Have any of you people who have tried out the stuff at the new 'Preview' server tried this PrE?

Is it exactly as described w/o any changes in requirements or additions to power levels?
Does it still come off extremly costly and under powered?

I tired it. I didn't mind the cost so much, but I didn't have the right build for it.

Kensai would be very good for someone who has focused on either one two-hander or oversized TWF - so a duial-rapier build, for example.

A great axe kensai, for example, ends up with a crit range of 18-20, and some nice bonuses to hit/dam. Those are nice.

It is really too bad we wont have Monk kensai - because it would be a very viable choice for a q-staff or dual-kama Monk. The same is true of a 18f/2m build, but...

[*argument against class bound PrE omitted here*]

[Aesop]

I tired it. I didn't mind the cost so much, but I didn't have the right build for it.

Kensai would be very good for someone who has focused on either one two-hander or oversized TWF - so a duial-rapier build, for example.

A great axe kensai, for example, ends up with a crit range of 18-20, and some nice bonuses to hit/dam. Those are nice.

It is really too bad we wont have Monk kensai - because it would be a very viable choice for a q-staff or dual-kama Monk. The same is true of a 18f/2m build, but...

[*argument against class bound PrE omitted here*]

[generic affirmative/agreeing statement of the comment in orange omitted here]


[forum name omitted here]

[Alavatar]

I hope Eladrin listened to the pleas of reducing the cost of this PrE. In comparison to the Ranger Tempest:

Tempest III Requires - 4 Feats and 14 AP
Feat - Dodge
Feat - Mobility
Feat - Spring Attack
Feat - One of four feats (Oversived Two-Weapon Fighting being the most common)
6 AP - Ranger Dexterity II (for Tempest II)
4 AP - Tempest I
2 AP - Tempest II
2 AP - Tempest III

Kensai III Requires - 5 Feats and 34 AP
Feat - Weapon Focus
Feat - Weapon Specialization
Feat - Greater Weapon Focus
Feat - Greater Weapon Specialization
Feat - Superior Weapon Focus
10 AP - Fighter Attack Boost IV
10 AP - Fighter Critical Accuracy IV
3 AP - Fighter Improved Weapon Specialization II
4 AP - Kensai I
2 AP - Kensai II
2 AP - Kensai III
3 AP - Kensai Weapon Mastery III

In comparison, I don't see how the high AP cost is justified. Specifically, I don't understand the requirement for BOTH Fighter Attack Boost IV AND Fighter Critical Accuracy IV. I would recommend making it an OR requirement, or increase the value of Fighter Critical Accuracy (add the bonus to damage like Seeker).

[Borror0]

[generic affirmative/agreeing statement of the comment in orange omitted here]


[forum name omitted here]

LOL! Awesome.

[Coldin]

I hope Eladrin listened to the pleas of reducing the cost of this PrE. In comparison to the Ranger Tempest:

Tempest III Requires - 4 Feats and 14 AP
Feat - Dodge
Feat - Mobility
Feat - Spring Attack
Feat - One of four feats (Oversived Two-Weapon Fighting being the most common)
6 AP - Ranger Dexterity II (for Tempest II)
4 AP - Tempest I
2 AP - Tempest II
2 AP - Tempest III

Kensai III Requires - 5 Feats and 34 AP
Feat - Weapon Focus
Feat - Weapon Specialization
Feat - Greater Weapon Focus
Feat - Greater Weapon Specialization
Feat - Superior Weapon Focus
10 AP - Fighter Attack Boost IV
10 AP - Fighter Critical Accuracy IV
3 AP - Fighter Improved Weapon Specialization II
4 AP - Kensai I
2 AP - Kensai II
2 AP - Kensai III
3 AP - Kensai Weapon Mastery III

In comparison, I don't see how the high AP cost is justified. Specifically, I don't understand the requirement for BOTH Fighter Attack Boost IV AND Fighter Critical Accuracy IV. I would recommend making it an OR requirement, or increase the value of Fighter Critical Accuracy (add the bonus to damage like Seeker).

I could say the same thing about several of the prestige enhancement lines. The costs really aren't balanced all that well. You have this issue with the Rogue PREs, because they require varying amounts of the skill enhancements. And in general, those skill enhancements are very expensive considering the limited benefit.

Most of the ones for Kensai are ok. All of them make sense for flavor I suppose. The extra feat is fine too really. It is really just to Crit Accuracy and Attack Boost IV that skyrocket this up in terms of cost. But, I really don't have a suggestion for fixing that. Maybe pick one or the other. Neither? You are already requiring a feat for it, Superior Weapon Focus. A feat most fighters wouldn't take otherwise.

I view it a little like this. If you're going to require feats to qualify for a prestige enhancement, then the required APs should be dropped as well.

[Borror0]

In comparison, I don't see how the high AP cost is justified.

Apples and oranges. Rangers and fighters don't have the same class abilities nor the same enhancements.

[Riorik]

10APs for +4 to confirm crits with no other bonus attached. Yaaaaaawn) to better match what this PrE is trying to do.

Isn't that +8 (2 per level)?

I remember going back about 18-24 months that bonuses to critical confirmation was a really good idea. Perhaps it will be again.

[Alavatar]

Apples and oranges. Rangers and fighters don't have the same class abilities nor the same enhancements.

*sigh*

Here are other examples:

Frenzied Berserker
Feat - Power Attack
Feat - Cleave
10 AP - Barbarian Damage Boost IV
6 AP - Barbarian Power Attack III
10 AP - Barbarian Power Rage III
4 AP - Barbarian Frenzied Berserker I
2 AP - Barbarian Frenzied Berserker II
2 AP - Barbarian Frenzied Berserker III

2 Feats, 34 AP

Defender of Siberys
Feat - Combat Expertise or Tower Shield Prof. or Shield Mastery
6 AP - Paladin Bulwark of Good III
6 AP - Paladin Resistance of Good III
3 AP - Paladin Toughness II
1 AP - Paladin Focus of Good I
1 AP - Paladin Armor Class Boost I
1 AP - Paladin Courage of Good I
6 AP - Paladin Faith II
4 AP - Defender of Siberys I
2 AP - Defender of Siberys II
2 AP - Defender of Siberys III

1 Feat, 32 AP

Stalwart Defender
Feat - Toughness
Feat - Dodge or Shield Mastery or Combat Expertise or Diehard or Least Dragonmark of Sentinel
3 AP - Fighter Skill Intimidate 2
3 AP - Fighter Item Defense II
6 AP - Fighter Armor Boost III
6 AP - Fighter Toughness III or Fighter Armored Agility III
OR
12 AP - Fighter Armor Mastery III or Fighter Tower Shield Mastery III
OR
Feat x 3 - Least/Lesser/Greater Dragonmark of Sentinel
4 AP - Stalwart Defender I
2 AP - Stalwart Defender II
2 AP - Stalwart Defender III

(2 Feats, 26 AP) OR (2 Feats, 32 AP) OR (5 Feats, 20 AP)

As you can see, all of the other melee PrE (including the other Fighter PrE), have less requirements to qualify. And none of the PrE require more then 3 AP to be spent in a useless AP tree. In fact, both the Defender of Siberys and the Stalwart Defender do not require past Tier III of Action Boost lines.

But, the Kensai requires 20 AP in relatively useless AP trees. If the Kensai could use Haste Boost instead of Attack Boost, things would be better. If the Kensai only had to go up to Tier 3 instead of Tier 4 of Attack Boost and Critical Accuracy, things would be better. But, as it is now, the Kensai PrE requires significantly more in comparison to all the other melee PrE out there.

[Borror0]

*sigh*

Apples and oranges. The cost related to the line is irrelevant. All that really matters is each build's performance.

Well, unless you want to say that the enhancement line forces too strict character design. But then, you would have to also agree to a nerf to the line.

[Alavatar]

Apples and oranges. The cost related to the line is irrelevant. All that really matters is each build's performance.

Well, unless you want to say that the enhancement line forces too strict character design. But then, you would have to also agree to a nerf to the line.

Say what you will, but comparing cost of PrE enhancements to each other is Apples to Apples as the cost is related to the over-all value of the Enhancements.

If you want a performance comparison you can do that homework. I do not believe performance is as critical as you make it out to be, which is why I am focusing on AP and Feat cost of the lines.

[Alavatar]

I could say the same thing about several of the prestige enhancement lines. The costs really aren't balanced all that well. You have this issue with the Rogue PREs, because they require varying amounts of the skill enhancements. And in general, those skill enhancements are very expensive considering the limited benefit.

Most of the ones for Kensai are ok. All of them make sense for flavor I suppose. The extra feat is fine too really. It is really just to Crit Accuracy and Attack Boost IV that skyrocket this up in terms of cost. But, I really don't have a suggestion for fixing that. Maybe pick one or the other. Neither? You are already requiring a feat for it, Superior Weapon Focus. A feat most fighters wouldn't take otherwise.

I view it a little like this. If you're going to require feats to qualify for a prestige enhancement, then the required APs should be dropped as well.

To be honest, I believe the required feats are reasonable. I just believe the chosen AP trees are not reasonable. They could have easily been spread out to include more useful Enhancement Lines such as Fighter Haste Boost, Fighter Strategy Sunder/Stunning Blow/Trip, Fighter Intimidate, or Fighter Strength.

Both Fighter Attack Boost and Fighter Critical Accuracy are not valuable, especially when they are required up to Tier 4.

[Aesop]

To be honest, I believe the required feats are reasonable. I just believe the chosen AP trees are not reasonable. They could have easily been spread out to include more useful Enhancement Lines such as Fighter Haste Boost, Fighter Strategy Sunder/Stunning Blow/Trip, Fighter Intimidate, or Fighter Strength.

Both Fighter Attack Boost and Fighter Critical Accuracy are not valuable, especially when they are required up to Tier 4.

Actually I wouldn't want it to use Haste Boost (as then I'd have fewer Haste Boosts to use and fewer Power Surges to use as well)

I would want the cost to reflect the performance however

maybe remove the 4th tier of each from the cost


Aesop

[Borror0]

I do not believe performance is as critical as you make it out to be, which is why I am focusing on AP and Feat cost of the lines.

What is your reasoning then? "This one costs X much so that one should cost the same?" Illogical.

[Jadeare]

Comparing feat costs with a pure fighter is a bit silly. It should be:

Number of useless(1) feats taken/Total feats given

For me it is:

Kensai: 1 useless feat, Superior Weapon Focus / 18 Feats (2) = .055

Tempest: 3 useless feats, Dodge, Mobility, SA (3) / 10 Feats (4)= .3

So here the kensai Feat cost is way way lower, 5.45 times lower(5).

1. Subjective
2. 11 Fighter 7 Normal
3. OSTWF is a maybe
4. Included 7 Normal and the 3 free TWF feats
5. Based on the assumption these are Pure Melee DPS focused builds, Str based ranger (ineffective AC)

[EKKM]

Comparing feat costs with a pure fighter is a bit silly. It should be:

Number of useless(1) feats taken/Total feats given

For me it is:

Kensai: 1 useless feat, Superior Weapon Focus / 18 Feats (2) = .055

Tempest: 3 useless feats, Dodge, Mobility, SA (3) / 10 Feats (4)= .3

So here the kensai Feat cost is way way lower, 5.45 times lower(5).

1. Subjective
2. 11 Fighter 7 Normal
3. OSTWF is a maybe
4. Included 7 Normal and the 3 free TWF feats
5. Based on the assumption these are Pure Melee DPS focused builds, Str based ranger (ineffective AC)

While I agree that the kensai feats are generally feats that would be taken anyway, using the ratio of feats per class is not a good comparison tool. Perhaps using class abilities would be better as the feats are the fighter abilities where the ranger also has favoured enemy, bow strength, various useful buff spells (bark, resist, rams, FOM), evasion, TWF tree for "free", manyshot, etc.

So the percentage of class abilities is likely the same. That said, dodge, OTWF, mobility are pretty useless. I disagree that spring attack is useless though.

[Borror0]

Perhaps using class abilities would be better

I don't see why people look at the cost, as if it was of any importance. It's the quality that matters, not the quantity.

Three hungry wolves > Twenty tasty bunnies

[EKKM]

I don't see why people look at the cost, as if it was of any importance. It's the quality that matters, not the quantity.

Three hungry wolves > Twenty tasty bunnies

Of course the cost is important. You need to compare what you are paying to what you are receiving.

Personally, I think the kensai line is worth the cost as it stands, although much higher would be pushing it.

[Borror0]

Of course the cost is important. You need to compare what you are paying to what you are receiving.

Within the class, that would make sense but when you compare two classes it does not.

The two PrEs are not in conflict one to another but rather ranger and fighter are. Therefore, you need to look at what each build gets and not what each PrE gets.

[FluffyCalico]

I don't see why people look at the cost, as if it was of any importance. It's the quality that matters, not the quantity.

Three hungry wolves > Twenty tasty bunnies

You can't know if something is a good deal without knowing both the quality as you put it and the cost.

Saying the cost doesn't matter is like saying you should get the x car because its 1% better and not care that it has 2 more 0s in its price tag. Of course cost matters.