Fighter Kensai Preview

[Monkey_Archer]

Don't forget to reduce extra crit damage. It looks like 5d10 + 36 still from the old x6 crit heavy pick (from acid burst and bloodstone).

I'm reading on my iPhone though so I could be wrong.

Good catch... previous numbers changed...

With new numbers FB does about 25% more dps then kensai up to 45AC, and they do equal at 55AC
With +1 multiplier for kensai, FB still does 15% more dps then kensai up to 45AC and do equal at 51AC
While a hasted kensai only does about 5% more dps then FB.

This is why i like multiplier... it helps balance out weapon choices and closes the dps gap enough to be comparable but not come too close as to tick off any barbarians who would be outraged if something could actually out dps them

[nbhs275]

Edit - nvm.

Why am I wasting minutes of my life arguing with a guy who thinks glancing blows go off on every swing or who has a Rgr but still hasn't realised until now his damage from Ram's is scaling?

/squlech on. If he actually has anything of value to say, maybe someone can let me know...

I was under the impression that each THF increased the amount of glancing blows in the chain. I've never built a toon with them, all of my melees either TWF, or don't have the feats for the chain. That basically changes the arguement on glancing blows from "if its a high percentage proc it could be devestating" to "unless its a high percentage proc its useless".

Oh, and im sorry i didnt notice 1 extra damage on my ranger. I guess fighters are getting boned even harder then i thought. A level 16 ranger gets +2 str and +4 damage for free, while the fighter needs to spend 4 feats for +2 to-hit and +4 damage. Yea, your arguements about rangers having to "waste" feats for tempest really stands up.

[Aesop]

Just give Kensai a +5% Competance Bonus to RoA between Teir 1 and tier 2 and you will havea much better match.

No multipliers
no extra Crit Range (beyond what's already there)
just a nice little bonus to RoA


the range looks much nicer over all and the master of a weapon should have a little more speed with said weapon. Make it Competance so it doesn't stack with Tempest



These should be the numbers I just added 5 hits extra to the 100
http://www.afterlifeguild.org/Thott/...ac=30&maxac=60

[Aesop]

Hey as a note here

"The Berserker can stack both of their Frenzy abilities to increase their strength by 6 and add an additional 6d6 damage to each of their swings at the cost of 2d3 damage reflected back upon them, or become a whirlwind of destruction using Supreme Cleave at will, as long as a friendly healer is willing to keep them going."

that's from the FB thread so the Viscious effects built in to FB stack with each other.

Aesop

[Cold_Stele]

I've added bard buffs and manually entered the value for PA now as it's reported Thrott doesn't do it correctly.

These numbers can be found here -

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=170786

If you think Kensai needs more love it... then say it there!

[Aesop]

Also why are you guys calculating things based on different weapons and with twf combinations, acid burst weapons and everything under the sun...

Wouldn't it be more helpful to look at a base line first and then extrapolate from that point.


like take a Great Ax to start (20x3 Crit... 19x3 crit with Imp Crit so that you can just include the Barb benefit a little easier to start with and)

You also aren't considering that a lvl 20 Barb has Mighty Rage which ups the Babr Rage to a Base +8 so a Full Frenzied Barb has at that Point +14 (+ enhancements... so I think +18) to their Strength giving them something along the lines of a Base 50 Str without all the toys attacked (like Blood Rage, Madstone Rage, Rage Spell, etc all of which a Fighter could also have) A fighter with the Kensai Bonus comes in at around a base of 44 Str... again without all the extras and super rares (assuming a +3 Tome for each)

The hard part here is calculating the actual benefit from the bonus to confirm Critical hits that a Kensai has.... because the calculator doesn't include that in it.

http://www.afterlifeguild.org/Thott/...ac=35&maxac=75


I think that the extra to confirm would extend the FLat line on damage out a little further or change the curve of decending DPS at least.

Also we have to consider that in a Boss type fight a Fighter has a number of Haste Boosts to use which could significantly adjust the damage in the Kensai's favor

http://www.afterlifeguild.org/Thott/...ac=35&maxac=75

With a Haste boost active it seems the Kensai would come ut on top... at least with the base line THF

Now if the basee line included a little help from an extra 5% Competance bonus

http://www.afterlifeguild.org/Thott/...ac=35&maxac=75

now Boosted with RoA improvement

http://www.afterlifeguild.org/Thott/...ac=35&maxac=75


I may be missing something ... but it doesn't seem that bad... I wouldn't mind the 5% RoA increase for Kensai though

Aesop

[Cold_Stele]

While the Kensai Power Surge ability shares number of uses per rest with the various Fighter Action Boosts, it does not share a cooldown with it other than the global cooldown for activating an ability.

Woot!

[Cold_Stele]

There's a pretty substantial error in my calc and anyone who's edited from me - 'extra damage' does not get muliplied by crits, only base damage. I've altered my numbers on this thread http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=170786

The reason why I've used Holy/Acid Burst Min II is because the extra damage on crits IS going to make a difference - FB add 5d10 every time they score a crit! Although leaving this stuff out would be a hell of a lot easier it just isn't realistic.

Barb Might Rage adds +2 Str to current 6+4 enh (the +8 doesn't stack with the current +6).

You're right about the crit confirmation, but with Bard buffs the Kensai this advantage and that of hitting high AC is pretty much lost.

Good point about FHB - I'll add the numbers to mine too at some point.

[Aesop]

There's a pretty substantial error in my calc and anyone who's edited from me - 'extra damage' does not get muliplied by crits, only base damage. I've altered my numbers on this thread http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=170786

The reason why I've used Holy/Acid Burst Min II is because the extra damage on crits IS going to make a difference - FB add 5d10 every time they score a crit! Although leaving this stuff out would be a hell of a lot easier it just isn't realistic.

Barb Might Rage adds +2 Str to current 6+4 enh (the +8 doesn't stack with the current +6).

You're right about the crit confirmation, but with Bard buffs the Kensai this advantage and that of hitting high AC is pretty much lost.

Good point about FHB - I'll add the numbers to mine too at some point.

Mighty Rage +8 Greater Frenzy +4 Frenzy +2 Enhancements +4= +18... that's what I was saying for Str base.

As for the Extra on Crit ... Does this apply the benefit (the Paladin Exalted Smite was having a Problem with applying the bonus Crit Multiplier to Bursting effects)

The Extra to Confirm Crits... yeah with all the buffs it may not be a big deal over all... I'm not sure really... at least not within a reasonable range

Aesop

[Aesop]

So Cold assuming the Bard Buffs effectively cancel out the benefit of the extra Crit Confirmation couldn'twe then just run a simplified version taking into account the Bursting Damage (assuming it does gain a benefit from the + to Crit Multiplier)

Some thing like this

http://www.afterlifeguild.org/Thott/...ac=35&maxac=75

I may still be missing something there though

[Cold_Stele]

So Cold assuming the Bard Buffs effectively cancel out the benefit of the extra Crit Confirmation couldn'twe then just run a simplified version taking into account the Bursting Damage (assuming it does gain a benefit from the + to Crit Multiplier)

Some thing like this

http://www.afterlifeguild.org/Thott/...ac=35&maxac=75

I may still be missing something there though

The thing I don't like about that chart is by comparing such high AC's makes Kensai look better than it is. If we run the same numbers in AC30-50 (which would realistically be 40-60 when Bard buffed) we get these numbers which don't look nearly so good.

I think your numbers need Seeker looking at, not sure about base damage and to hit either...

As for the FB numbers I was running, yes they included Frenzy, etc.

[Aesop]

So assuming pure class level 20 Barb and Fighter (w/o any weird Capstone as we don't know what they are yet)


BAB 20
+5 Weapon
Bard Buff is +8? Morales Bonus
Inspire Greatness +2 Competance
+ Str mod

Fighter Bonuses to hit

Weapon Focus +1
GWF +1
SWF +1
Kensai 1 +1
Kensai 2 +1


what other bonuses to hit are there that can be taken int oconsideration?

I left out Racial and Faith Enhancements

-5 For Power Attack
(barb -8)

anything else you can think of that I missed?

Aesop

[Riggs]

One of the features of a fighter is supposed to be versatility - and the kensai requirements are steep enough that you basically lose all versatility and are still behind damage of other classes it seems.

* edit - and also, when a fighter specializes in one thing, they should be better than anyone else in that one thing, except maybe pure str damage vs a barb. Rangers get spells, other abilities - a two weapon fighter with specialization should be as good, or better at damage than a ranger.

Not only is there a heavy feat requirement, but the enhancements are also pretty heavy.

Oriental adventures also gave kensai an armor class bonus (thought they had to be armorless). Maybe part of the line could be a ac bonus when using the favored weapon?

Also, the 1 minute power surge to str sounds good...but if it is like the wf bladesworn boost, and only usable once every 10 minutes it wont be very useful. But if it is using an attack boost instead - does that mean you can chain them every minute? If you can be regularly using the +8 str then it will be very useful.

Is there any chance of finding out a rough number on what all the enhancements and feat that increase the chance of weapon effects on glancing blows will be? Lots of speculation, and I am sure the numbers are still being tweaked - but unless it ends up adding up to pretty close to 100% near the top it still wont be as good as two weapon fighting.

Thanks

[Aesop]

See now early on in the thread I said to include an AC bonus and people said "Kensai is about damage defender is about AC"... I say Fah..


Now I really do want to drop the Skill Bonuses and just gimme +1 to AC per tier and +5% RoA (competance Bonus) per tier

Aesop

[Griphon]

I'm still going to say:

Ditch the skill bonuses, ditch the Ki stuff, if the Tactic feats are going to be of questionable use then ditch those benefits as well...

Add +1 Crit Multiplier at 12

It increases the DPS nicely making the PrE comparable to the FB and Tempest.
It increases the over all 'focus' of the PrE so it doesn't feel so 'across the board'.



And the 'Around the 3rd year Anniversary' marking is coming.. One month and count...
Tick Tock. Tick Tock

[Cold_Stele]

anything else you can think of that I missed?

Aesop

Sorry not to reply sooner Aesop - I wanted to get on my PC to read the tables in detail rather than try to make them out on the iPhone.

Looks like you've got everything covered there in those numbers, just another +1 for Haste I think. I'm sure you've got it covered already but for Kensai you only need to add the extra +3 for SWF and Kensai II, WF and GWF are already included.

Put in the Seeker 14 for Kensai and 6 for Barb and your good to go.

Oh, and yup, I was going on +10 to hit, +8 damage from Bard buffs too.

[Riggs]

A crit multiplier would be appropriate - skill with a weapon means more devastating strikes.

The dc to combat feats should stay though - just because some ppl dont use them doesnt mean they are not useful to the ones that do....

The increase chance to glancing blows hopefully is useful, but for a one handed user...they will miss out. Is there any way to add something, either faster attacks, or maybe even giving cleave as a bonus feat?

Going back to oriental adventures again, kensai were the ones who first got the whirlwind ability, maybe that could be represented by having cleave/greatcleave/whirlwind added for each tier? That would also balance out the heavy feat requirement (tier 3 requires 6 feats, 9 if you want to specialize with two handed fighting)

Fighter critical accuracy and attack boost are 20 points total, which is a steep cost on top, considering most of the time they are not used anyway, and would only be useful if the majority of monsters started having a 50-60 armor class(or higher for level 20ish stuff)....but if that happens it will go back to head start days when only fighters could hit things on elite with the +10 action boost.

[moorewr]

I'm seeing people in recent posts suggesting switching to an increase to the critical multiplier. I am very much in favor of staying with kensai fighters an increased crit. range and leaving the crit multiplier to frenzied berserkers. I think that best matches the theme of the two PrEs - and it does give a TWF khopesh or rapier kensai a reason to live.

[Cold_Stele]

These are the latest numbers I have for TWF Khopesh Kensai/FB/Tempest.



Kensai vs Tempest

Kensai vs FB (6d6 Vicious)

Kensai vs FB (4d6 Vicious)

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=170786

[drsmooth]

I would love to see one more ability for the Kensai Pre: The ability to be centered with their weapon of choice. This would of course be a powerful ability and thus have to be a second or third tier ability. It would make monk/kensai builds much more viable and synergistic.