Fighter Kensai Preview

[hu-flung-pu]

Two monk gives anyone in robes wis to AC and evasion. Past that, alot of its not useful. Sure, wind stance would be an ok thing, tho remember its only 3.5 while hasted. And the ki strikes, the way they SLOW DOWN your attack chain and have a long cooldown, really no advantage there.

I've never had slowdown on my monks using ki strikes or on my paladin using smites. In fact on my monks it's even better with two weapon fighting.

[Borror0]

I've never had slowdown on my monks using ki strikes or on my paladin using smites. In fact on my monks it's even better with two weapon fighting.

You just button mash until it triggers?

[bobbryan2]

The two monk levels open up ki strikes (and yes an extra 4 base damage can be useful), wind stance attack speed stacking with acrobat attack speeds, WIS bonus to AC, and no penalty to BAB with a quarter staff. Use your imagination a bit.

The smaller the splash the more diminished the returns. But you also aren't sacrificing much of the focus on what you're trying to do.

First off... ki strikes do not do 4 base damage. Base damage is physical damage, blocked only by DR, and it multiplied in crits. They do 3.5 energy damage... but even then... they only do it once every few seconds.

Wind speed is a 3.5% increase in attack power, and requires you giving up a substantial amount of DPS compared something like a khopesh. Khopeshes do about 42% more base damage than a kama, for instance.

No penalty to BAB means a +1 to hit when using weapons that demolish your DPS.

I use my imagination... but the difference is... at some point you have to come back to reality instead of dreaming that people splash 3-4 monk and get huge returns from using kamas and quarterstaves.

[hu-flung-pu]

You just button mash until it triggers?

No.

I actually have reflexes faster then a sea sponge, hard to believe I'm sure.

As soon as I let go of my attack button in mid animation, I hit the ki strike hot key, and then press and hold the attack again. The hot key triggers the next step in the animation with the applied beneffit, and I can resume my attack chain unbroken.

No slow down or pause in attacks.

First off... ki strikes do not do 4 base damage. Base damage is physical damage, blocked only by DR, and it multiplied in crits. They do 3.5 energy damage... but even then... they only do it once every few seconds.

Strike of Enduring 1.

Enhancement: Strike of the Enduring I
You strike an opponent, backed with the strength of the earth. Your attack deals 4 additional damage.

This enhancement is automatically granted with enhancement Disciple of Pebbles

http://compendium.ddo.com/index.php/...the_Enduring_I

Wind speed is a 3.5% increase in attack power, and requires you giving up a substantial amount of DPS compared something like a khopesh. Khopeshes do about 42% more base damage than a kama, for instance.

And how much is the base damage of the khopesh compared against the damage I stated from a 12 kensai/6 rogue/2 monk wielding a quarterstaff? A big stick critting for over 130 base damage, minus back stab, minus weapon effects, minus splash damage AND splash damage special effects, that is going to be increased with 2 kensai.

I'd say it's fairly respectable.

No penalty to BAB means a +1 to hit when using weapons that demolish your DPS.

What is this comparison off of? The rogue levels? Darn, I guess my weapon focus feats and enhancemens, and kensai bonuses to attack didn't affec my BAB?

I use my imagination... but the difference is... at some point you have to come back to reality instead of dreaming that people splash 3-4 monk and get huge returns from using kamas and quarterstaves.

The reality of the situation is that with a 50 STR, and rogue haste boost. I don't see how it's some how weak or gimped.

And if you're a fighter specializing in monk weapons, why not take monk to capitalize on the benefits the class incorporates?

I do tend to agree with your point about 3-4 splashes of monk, although that in it's self has advantages outside of weapon damage. It's not an optimal character for DPS, but it's varied and fun.

[bobbryan2]

No.

I actually have reflexes faster then a sea sponge, hard to believe I'm sure.

As soon as I let go of my attack button in mid animation, I hit the ki strike hot key, and then press and hold the attack again. The hot key triggers the next step in the animation with the applied beneffit, and I can resume my attack chain unbroken.

No slow down or pause in attacks.





Strike of Enduring 1.



http://compendium.ddo.com/index.php/...the_Enduring_I



And how much is the base damage of the khopesh compared against the damage I stated from a 12 kensai/6 rogue/2 monk wielding a quarterstaff? A big stick critting for over 130 base damage, minus back stab, minus weapon effects, minus splash damage AND splash damage special effects, that is going to be increased with 2 kensai.

I'd say it's fairly respectable.



What is this comparison off of? The rogue levels? Darn, I guess my weapon focus feats and enhancemens, and kensai bonuses to attack didn't affec my BAB?



The reality of the situation is that with a 50 STR, and rogue haste boost. I don't see how it's some how weak or gimped.

And if you're a fighter specializing in monk weapons, why not take monk to capitalize on the benefits the class incorporates?

I do tend to agree with your point about 3-4 splashes of monk, although that in it's self has advantages outside of weapon damage. It's not an optimal character for DPS, but it's varied and fun.

Please show me what buffs are necessary for a quarterstaff to get close to the DPS of a greataxe. Or how a kama comes close to a khopesh. You keep 'saying' things... but go ahead and show me numbers.

[hu-flung-pu]

http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Feat:...Ki:_Long_Sword

Now, even if that's not put in ever, a 12 kensai/8 monk would still get +18 on a critical and +10 non-critical damage modifier swinging a q-staff. Along with all the level 6 monk benefits.

That's before any other bonuses or damage multipliers.

Theoretical max damage bonus for a q-staff swinging kensai/monk with a double madstone rage would have a 49 STR, that gives a +19 modifier, two handing offers double that, +5 power attack bonus, +5 weapon bonus, and you're now doing a base 58 damage per swing. Do the math for a critical and you're now doing a base 132 damage on a critical.

That's with a big friggin' stick!

Throw in 6 rogue two monk, and you just get even more ******** with your weapon speed now coming in to play with acrobat PrE's with out adding in the rogue sneak attack bonuses.

I don't think people have thought this through completely on why combining monk is a bad thing with Kensai.


Edit: After calculating the STR, I'm still missing plus 3 from enhancements, so it's a +21 modifier with a 52 theoretical max STR. Upping the damage output even higher.

Since you wanted numbers, and couldn't go back a page.

[nbhs275]

No.

I actually have reflexes faster then a sea sponge, hard to believe I'm sure.

As soon as I let go of my attack button in mid animation, I hit the ki strike hot key, and then press and hold the attack again. The hot key triggers the next step in the animation with the applied beneffit, and I can resume my attack chain unbroken.

No slow down or pause in attacks.





Strike of Enduring 1.



http://compendium.ddo.com/index.php/...the_Enduring_I



And how much is the base damage of the khopesh compared against the damage I stated from a 12 kensai/6 rogue/2 monk wielding a quarterstaff? A big stick critting for over 130 base damage, minus back stab, minus weapon effects, minus splash damage AND splash damage special effects, that is going to be increased with 2 kensai.

GS khopesh is 1d10 17-20/x3. A kensia(18 fighter/2 monk) is 16-20/x3 under the current version. So critting more then twice as often, for more. Your also overstating your strength. A pure fighter can bearly hit a 50 Str, if human, maxed and fully invested, and with a short term boost(18 base +4 enhn +5 lvl +3 tome + 6 item +4 madstone +2 rage +8 powersurge = 50)

So your going to be far less then that. But, even at a 50 str, thats a total +30str damage on a hit, and your getting 9 from fighter stuff, and 10 total seeker. Meaning that sure, you can crit for about about 120-130, but the khopesh under the same situation is at about 180, and is critting more then twice as often.

Oh, and hes TWF, and attacking faster.

I'd say it's fairly respectable.


What is this comparison off of? The rogue levels? Darn, I guess my weapon focus feats and enhancemens, and kensai bonuses to attack didn't affec my BAB?

Your still farther behind the pure kensia for attack bonus. Again, rogue is a 3/4th bab class, and you have a lower strength and only 2/3 of the kensia line...and no high level fighter feats.





The reality of the situation is that with a 50 STR, and rogue haste boost. I don't see how it's some how weak or gimped.

Rogue haste boost doesnt stack with fighter haste boost. Which guess what, fighters get. You have 20% with RHB II, 18/2 fighter has 30% with FHBIV, more uses, and again is TWF.

And if you're a fighter specializing in monk weapons, why not take monk to capitalize on the benefits the class incorporates?

I do tend to agree with your point about 3-4 splashes of monk, although that in it's self has advantages outside of weapon damage. It's not an optimal character for DPS, but it's varied and fun.

It's been said before man, monk 1-2 is more useful then 6 or even 12 levels of monk in 99% of all cases. Its dip heavy, with 90% of its useful abilities in the first two levels, with no sustainable DPS advantage at high levels.

[Angelus_dead]

First off... ki strikes do not do 4 base damage. Base damage is physical damage, blocked only by DR, and it multiplied in crits. They do 3.5 energy damage... but even then... they only do it once every few seconds.

Strike of Enduring is a ki strike which does do 4 base damage. It is physical damage, blocked only by DR, and is multiplied in crits.

I have hypothesized that the reason Strike of Enduring is better than the other 3 damage-add Ki attacks is because it has constitution as a prereq, an ability which does not otherwise improve a monk's offense.

[bobbryan2]

Strike of Enduring is a ki strike which does do 4 base damage. It is physical damage, blocked only by DR, and is multiplied in crits.

I have hypothesized that the reason Strike of Enduring is better than the other 3 damage-add Ki attacks is because it has constitution as a prereq, an ability which does not otherwise improve a monk's offense.

Heh... shows what I know. I never even took earth stance after Risia.

[hu-flung-pu]

It's been said before man, monk 1-2 is more useful then 6 or even 12 levels of monk in 99% of all cases. Its dip heavy, with 90% of its useful abilities in the first two levels, with no sustainable DPS advantage at high levels.

Great, I'm sure mom must be proud. What's your point? I wasn't aware this was a ****ing contest or I would have kept my mouth shut. I was just stating that the versatility, and damage isn't anywhere near as gimped as some of you people make it out to be.

With 6 monk, you get second tier stances, which opens up ki strikes one and two and fists of light which are usable with weapons.

So I'm capable of pulling off walk of the sun, and grasp of the earth dragon on a consistent basis with the additional Ki creation from Kensai, what I lose out on over all DPS, I make up for in versatility. This isn't a ****ing contest between who can make the most damaging build, guy, I'm just stating that what you get in return, is an equal trade off in versatility, and AoE damage versus focused damage.

And rogue skews the numbers further with it's sneak attack damage, and auto-crits with cleave.

ANd the STR break down is;

18 base
+5 level up
+3 enhancement
+2 fire stance
+2 madstone rage
+4 madstone rage on hit.
+8 kensai power surge
+6 Item (potentialy +8 item at 20)
+4 tome
----------------------
52

Half orcs will be able to add another 4, for a 56 STR.

[Monkey_Archer]

The two monk levels open up ki strikes (and yes an extra 4 base damage can be useful), wind stance attack speed stacking with acrobat attack speeds, WIS bonus to AC, and no penalty to BAB with a quarter staff. Use your imagination a bit.

The smaller the splash the more diminished the returns. But you also aren't sacrificing much of the focus on what you're trying to do.

Again, im not saying the kensai monk you decribed is bad or gimped or any of that. (actually ive been going over a couple builds including elf str/dex and dwarf str/con staff user)

The point is that kensai gives a bonus to ki, which has nothing to do with stances, wis bonus, attack speed, etc....
I personally (with 2 levels of monk) would rather use non monk weapons rather then mashing 3.5/4 damage ki strikes to try to keep dps up.

And a 14monk/6kensai is in my oppinion just a gimped monk with a ki bonus....
making 12kensai/8monk the only reasonable option (again in my oppinion. would like to be proven wrong though)
Hense kensai monks are quite limited without, lets say... Ki:Longswords

[hu-flung-pu]

Again, im not saying the kensai monk you decribed is bad or gimped or any of that. (actually ive been going over a couple builds including elf str/dex and dwarf str/con staff user)

The point is that kensai gives a bonus to ki, which has nothing to do with stances, wis bonus, attack speed, etc....
I personally (with 2 levels of monk) would rather use non monk weapons rather then mashing 3.5/4 damage ki strikes to try to keep dps up.

And a 14monk/6kensai is in my oppinion just a gimped monk with a ki bonus....
making 12kensai/8monk the only reasonable option (again in my oppinion. would like to be proven wrong though)
Hense kensai monks are quite limited without, lets say... Ki:Longswords

I would love to see "weapon ki: <kensai weapon>" But we really don't know just yet what's happening until it's released.

And the additional ki gneration is great for finishing moves, not just ki strike, but in order for the finishers to be worthwhile, you have to take a minimum 3 levels which cuts in to kensai 3. And if you've gotta sacrifice that much fighter, why not take a bigger jump in to Monk?

[Monkey_Archer]

I would love to see "weapon ki: <kensai weapon>" But we really don't know just yet what's happening until it's released.

And the additional ki gneration is great for finishing moves, not just ki strike, but in order for the finishers to be worthwhile, you have to take a minimum 3 levels which cuts in to kensai 3. And if you've gotta sacrifice that much fighter, why not take a bigger jump in to Monk?

Hmmmfff... errrr... grumble grumble...
I dont think i want to see monks running around with heavy picks using karmic strike for auto crits....

Edit: oh yeah theres another question: Why does my monk STOP doing anything for about 2 seconds (feels like 10) when using karmic strike with handwraps....
One auto crit is not worth losing your next 5 attacks.... i have had no problem with karmic kama/staff strikes... (well i guess no1 has noticed this as 99% of all monks are good based)

[hu-flung-pu]

Hmmmfff... errrr... grumble grumble...
I dont think i want to see monks running around with heavy picks using karmic strike for auto crits....

Edit: oh yeah theres another question: Why does my monk STOP doing anything for about 2 seconds (feels like 10) when using karmic strike with handwraps....
One auto crit is not worth losing your next 5 attacks.... i have had no problem with karmic kama/staff strikes... (well i guess no1 has noticed this as 99% of all monks are good based)

Now you're thinking.

And you're supposed to be vulnerable to a critical attack after you attack with karmic strike, which is why you're held in place. The freeze effect just isn't applied to the weapons for some reason.

[Monkey_Archer]

Now you're thinking.

And you're supposed to be vulnerable to a critical attack after you attack with karmic strike, which is why you're held in place. The freeze effect just isn't applied to the weapons for some reason.

1 auto crit for 1 self-auto crit makes sense, this is what karmic strike is described as...
1 auto crit for -5 attacks and self-auto crit really does not...
This is just about the only reason for making a path of darkness monk... i really hope this is NOT working as intended...

[Monkey_Archer]

Lets start with attack damage bonuses for 1 handed weapons...

FB gets 6d6 vicious and +6 str = +24 damage +3attack
Kensai gets +2 attack/damage +8 str, +4 seeker = +9 damage +6attack

(This is being generous for the seeker damage....
Which, for a rapier getting 7 crits, would give 14x4seeker = 56 damage for 20 swings....
Or about an average of 2.8 extra damge per swing)

SUMMARY:
Basically FB gets about 3 times the damage bonus of kensai.
(yes i know Frenzy is temporary, but so is half of the kensai damage.... and I bet powersurge wont last as long and has a limited # of uses)

Now on to a critical power chart...


Weapon ----- FB --------- Kensai --- Base
------------------------------------------
Club---------- 1.25 ------- 1.10 ----- 1.05
------------------------------------------
Sword -------- 1.35 ------- 1.20 ----- 1.15
Axe ---------- 1.35 ------- 1.25 ----- 1.15
------------------------------------------
Rapier -------- 1.45 --------1.30 ---- 1.25
Pick ---------- 1.45 ------- 1.40 ---- 1.25
------------------------------------------
Khopesh ------ 1.55 ------- 1.45 ---- 1.35

While FB get a +0.20 to critical power (for any weapon...)
Kensai get anywhere from +0.05 to 0.15 depending on their chosen weapon's multiplier.

SUMMARY:
So FB get 4 times the critical power boost for any x2 multiplier weapon.
Or twice the critical power boost for x3 weapons.

And on to the "fun extras"....

Kensai get +2 concentration, diplo, intim, bluff, combat DC, saves vs magic and ki bonus
FB gets diehard and supreme cleave

While i'd like to say these are equal.....

Concentration and ki is useless unless you multiclass to monk (or caster....)
Most intimitanks will not be taking kensai....
and i dont know of any diplo/bluff fighters... (again another "possibly helpful for multiclass" thing)
Leaving combat DC and saves as the only useful things for a pure fighter.

Diehard is basically a free (temporary) feat...
and supreme cleave (the horror) might easily be equated to cycling cleave, great cleave and whirlwind attack (which would require a total of 8 feats to do i believe.....)

SUMMARY:
I just dont think a better trip and changing a "terrible" will save to a "somewhat bad" will save even comes close to supreme cleave.


SO lets see here...
FB gets at least 3 times the damage bonus, twice the critical power (assuming all kensai use axes or khopeshes...which they probably will) and better "extras".

Oh yeah I forgot to compare the Feat/AP costs.... *laughs then pukes*

[Borror0]

SUMMARY:
Basically FB gets about 3 times the damage bonus of kensai.

While I agree Kensai does need some love, I can't help but at this statement.

I think there is something about Vicious damage you didn't really factor. That is one of many things wrong with the analysis you made.

[Monkey_Archer]

While I agree Kensai does need some love, I can't help but at this statement.

I think there is something about Vicious damage you didn't really factor. That is one of many things wrong with the analysis you made.

huh? the fact that the FB might need to drink a couple pots after combat if the poor cleric decides not to heal them?

many things wrong? what are these many thing?

[Justicesar]

I have a friend who is going to have a go at the Frenzied Beserker and it will be interesting to see how fast his HP drops after expending points to do the attacks and then receiving all the damage back for all mobs caught in the cleave. After I see how it plays out I may change up my Barb....or build another. Still though... have a very solid TWF Kensai that is doing very well atm. A few more tweaks in the line would be cool...but not holding my breath for that.

[Monkey_Archer]

Hmm.. even if the Barbarian is not in frenzy, the extra critical power easily results in more added dps then the +2 damage/seeker a kensai gets.

Making a full kensai at least equal in dps to an un-frenzied berzerker would be the least they could do.....