Fighter Kensai Preview

[Griphon]

But it makes little sense.

You got to look at the whole. If feat A favors more THF and benefits TWF slighty, but then feat B favors TWF back into balance... things are balanced. Perhaps this enhancement is underwhelming to S&B characters. You got to look at the game as a whole. Not simply the PrE in itself, but the whole game and see how it interacts.

I disagree.
If you look at each part for balane the whole will be balanced.

If you look at game as a whole, it can be balanced but where do you start? You have to start at the core mechanics... As you've said thats part of the nature of the imbalance now. But.. You can't CHANGE those for obvious reasons. (like it'll stop being DnD, yeah?)

If you look at the parts and identify inconsistances, imbalances and the like.. You can correct them with out making drastic changes to the system as a whole.


Stepping back and looking at how the Kensia will interact with the game as a whole:
(obviously my own onion)
I see it helping all fighters who'd take it. I, however, see it disproportionately helping TFH and TWF style fighters. For two reasons: TWF is helped more by the very nature of TWF. THF is helped more by special 'freebies' added to the PrE.

I see two options for Kensia being seeming under powered, and there for predict that it'll only help to increase the cookie cutter syndrome of having Tempest builds and Two Handed fighters. You'll not see many ranged fighters or many S&B fighters. (No comments about who'd want to make a ranged fighter anyway, please. That is not helpful nor the point.)

Do we want all Kensia to be Two Hand fighters and Two Weapon Fighters? If thats the goal then just create a 2Handed PrE, we already have Tempest.

Do we want all Fighters who happen to carry a shield to be 'Defenders' (even though we've not seen it.) If thats the case we'd probably be better off hacking off b its of DDO's customability and making it like WoW with predesignated paths. (Oh wait.. they did that with DnD 4.0. Yuck!)

[Desteria]

Replies in Red
I do not think that limiting it to the main hand makes it a lousy PrE. (Or I wouldn't have suggested it.) Nor do I think giving a 'freebie' to a fighting style makes the PrE lousy.. I do, however, think it's unfair and shouldn't be put into game as is.

IF it cost MORE to get the extra benifits for THF frankly i don't think it woudl be worht it at all, it;s JUST barly JUST barly imo worth the cost now fro a THF or TWF.....

For a S&B i don't think it;s worht it but then on a S&B this is imo NOT the PRC i would take any way IF i cared about cost versbenifit IE if your buildign for power level, a DPS PRC is not what your goign to take on a S&B tank, your goign to take a PRC that enhacese your power level and S&B power is sposed to be AC NOT DPS.
In D&D balace such as there has never bene with in a oprc liek this purty much EVERY PRC avalible is always MUCH better with certen fighting styles and sucks for others this one is a damage dealers PRC a damage dealer is by definition NOT a S&B fighter so it benifiting other fighting styles more is NORMAL D&D.

You want to try and balalance a PRC with in it self with all 'fighting' styles take a wack at exotic weapon master if you don't like this you will LOVE how unbalanced that one is towards certen weapons/fighting stilles.

[Borror0]

Quick question is this a deviation for core DnD, I don't remember it being in there.

Nope. It is the same in PnP.

"If you attack with a two-handed weapon, or with a one-handed weapon wielded in two hands, instead add twice the number subtracted from your attack rolls." - SRD

I do not think that limiting it to the main hand makes it a lousy PrE.

Compare it to Tempest I or Warchanter I to see how untrue that is.

I do, however, think it's unfair and shouldn't be put into game as is.

Allow me to be frank and say it is a very narrow-minded way to look at balance.

They are NOT given a freebie. If they were, you would see me saying that it would make overpower THF.

So.. When you talk builds you are also talking about fighting style.

Exactly. That does not even hurt the point I was making Griphon.

You seem to look at this PrE as if all there was about each fighting style was this enhancement. That is not the case as you know. Balance is about being equally powerful while still being different. There is nothing wrong with S&B getting less from this enhancement. For as long as S&B is good in itself, for as long as there are sufficiently enough good S&B builds... there is not the problem you depict.

..and again, S&B DPS builds just cannot work.

[Griphon]

Btu what i'm saying is in the big pictuly the tHF IS ALREADY PAYING MORE, hes just not payign more in AP's....

make 3 seperate encments make them have the exact efects they do now they can cost as follows
1 handed: cost 1 AP and you must spend 1 hand to weild a weapon.
2 handed: cost 1 ap and you must spend 2 HANDS to weild a wepon.
TWF: cost 1 AP and you must spend 2 HANDS to weild 2 wepons.

There you go they each have difrent costs the 2 that give same benifit level cost the same and the one that gives less costs less...

yes they've already paid more.. But they've already gotten more from what they paid.

TWF spend tons of feats on TWF to get better attacks and multiple special affects
THF spend 3 or so feats to get improved Glancing Blows. (kind of lame, but they're getting worked.. Off topic for this trhead
1 handed fighter spends no extra feats, but gets the same benefit options available to the others.

Yes you're paying for THF and TWF in feats.. But you're getting a reward for your payment.

Still doesn't mean they should say oh hey.. Lets give more to the THF just cuz!

[Desteria]

I disagree.
If you look at each part for balane the whole will be balanced.

Thats HOW D&D balaces such as it does balace it balaces as a whole you HAVE to look at the big picture, Power attack for example is horrable unbalaced with in it self; I mean THF and TWF get twice the benifit in PnP of S&B BUT over all that is balaced by S&B getitng to use a sheild OR some other off hand item....
As a note in 3.0 i think it was PA was 1 for 1 for all weapons consiquently NO one USED THF the realyl wasent a benifit to it why sacrifice a HUGE amount of defense for only a very minimal gain, (the 1.5 str thing sicne in PnP str gets no where near there levels it does in DDO it realyl was a minisqule gain). When 3.5 came out the changed PA to work twice as well on 2handed thus suddenly you had a lot more 2hand fighter pop up, but they sacrificed a lot of defense to do this over all there was still a balace point.

Do we want all Kensia to be Two Hand fighters and Two Weapon Fighters? If thats the goal then just create a 2Handed PrE, we already have Tempest.

YES all peopel that take kensi from a power gaming stand point SHOULD be THF or TWF's it's a Damage PRC, if they are S&B and they take kensi the charakter is obviusly NOT built to maximize it's potetial so who casres if i get the most form the class, D&D PRC are like that they are noramly only good FOR one or 2 select styles or build designs, any oen else takign them is takign them for RP resons or to get specal requierments liek class skills a fighter cant get to get in to there REAL prc later.

Do we want all Fighters who happen to carry a shield to be 'Defenders' (even though we've not seen it.) If thats the case we'd probably be better off hacking off b its of DDO's customability and making it like WoW with predesignated paths. (Oh wait.. they did that with DnD 4.0. Yuck!)

YES all Fighters that go S&B and are power gaming it SHOULD go a PRC that is build for defensive characters once agian se above thats teh natue of D&D PRC's. Do all S&B have to go defenders no lots wont because they will chose somethign else because they don't care about min/maxign or they want another one for RP reasons.


D&D has never tryed to balace on the small scale they have tryed to balace over the big picture how well they did if up to you, but thats the way ti has always been.



P.S. Withe martial handbook for 4th ed there are a lot more options, then before nothing like 3.5 but then you have a lot more pths and ways to alter them for at leats teh matial characters now.

[Borror0]

If you look at each part for balane the whole will be balanced.

False. If you look at the whole for balance, the part will be identical. Not balanced.

As you've said thats part of the nature of the imbalance now. But.. You can't CHANGE those for obvious reasons.

Depending what you mean, you are right or totally wrong.

You can easily make S&B gain more out of Kensai through core changes. However, you are right that S&B DPS builds are forever doomed whatever you do about it, unless you create illogical modifications to make them better than what they currently are.

You'll not see many ranged fighters or many S&B fighters.

It would be unfair to blame Kensai for either of these.

Do we want all Kensia to be Two Hand fighters and Two Weapon Fighters? If thats the goal then just create a 2Handed PrE, we already have Tempest.

There are less benefits in it for S&B characters than TWF or THF characters.

Just because it is less attractive to S&B characters it does not mean it is unattractive to them. You are mixing the two.

[Griphon]

IF it cost MORE to get the extra benifits for THF frankly i don't think it woudl be worht it at all, it;s JUST barly JUST barly imo worth the cost now fro a THF or TWF.....

Perhaps not 'worth it' for the 2HFers who no longer got something 'more' than the rest. (meaning the increased Chance of Glancing Blow Specials.. I really should come up with an acronym for it to speed it up. One handed fighters could still be attracted... Are you saying that with out the special 'freebies' to 2HF the PrE isn't attractive? If so then it's obviously underpowered for those that don't get the 'special freebies'.

(which is what you said below.. Duh)


For a S&B i don't think it;s worht it but then on a S&B this is imo NOT the PRC i would take any way IF i cared about cost versbenifit IE if your buildign for power level, a DPS PRC is not what your goign to take on a S&B tank, your goign to take a PRC that enhacese your power level and S&B power is sposed to be AC NOT DPS.
In D&D balace such as there has never bene with in a oprc liek this purty much EVERY PRC avalible is always MUCH better with certen fighting styles and sucks for others this one is a damage dealers PRC a damage dealer is by definition NOT a S&B fighter so it benifiting other fighting styles more is NORMAL D&D.

.. first I have no clue what versebenifit means... or even if it's a word. o.O.. Not picking or what ever.. Just confused.

However, it seems to me your saying that this wouldn't be attractive to somebody who uses a S&B... First off let me say not all fighters who use a S&B are there for the uber AC idea. (which we know fails, right?) Some tactical fighters carry a shield ans specialize in a single weapon like Kopesh. These types of characters would see the PrE attractive linked with the Weapon Specialization they've used for increased damage and hit.

When ever I've used 'S&B' I've tried to make it clear that said individual isn't always going for AC. So please don't think 'oh he must be an AC tank.'

So there are more to S&B fighters than just 'possible ac'.. or 'possible dps'.



You want to try and balalance a PRC with in it self with all 'fighting' styles take a wack at exotic weapon master if you don't like this you will LOVE how unbalanced that one is towards certen weapons/fighting stilles.

Exotic Weapon Master's idea was basically being proficient in mutlple exotic weapons and maximizing their usage.. Thought it was way wacked if I remember right.

I'd have rather this followed the idea of the old 'Weapon master' from 3.0 myself. Higher damage capacity via the crit range and multipler.... I feel like it fits in with the 'Barbarian Rage' nicely. But -maybe- their changing that ungodly enhancement. I can only hope.

I'd have also rather it been a crit multiper added at stage 3 instead of Crit range addition. But that really has nothing to do with my complaints or the price of tea in china, right?

[Desteria]

Originally Posted by Griphon
If thats the goal then just create a 2Handed PrE, we already have Tempest.

Yes but untill fighters can TAKE tempest kensi woudl be a good thf or twf prc for them.

I liek the idea of Dirfent prcs getitng the same style to the same place difrent ways IE a twf ranger takes tempest getts attack speed and thus deals more damage
A twf fighter takes Kensigets +damage/crit damage and thus deals more Hopefully similarly more damage, now you have 2 ways to get to the same end for teh same fightign style each are balaced each are difrent....

For S&B you don;t look at damage and say they shoudl have the damage of THF or even get the same benifit from kensi lets be honest WHAT THF will take a prc that gives AC bonnus it woudl be totaly unballced becuase of the d20 a THF getting +10 AC would mean he gets hit lets be generus 5% less...
A S&B takes same PRC that +10 ac is goign to mean 50% less getitng hit it;s an absolute value BUT is it balanced no not really but does that matter NO why beacsue THF is not a defender style if a tHF wants to go defender they are already saying hey I'm not going to be good at this but i just want it anyway becasue it;s COOL.
Same thign for kensi S7B can takit sayign hey this isent as good for me but i just want it because it's cool.

[Desteria]

[COLOR="Red"].. first I have no clue what versebenifit means... or even if it's a word. o.O.. Not picking or what ever.. Just confused.
COLOR]

Cost verse benifit ok i forgot one space shoot me!

[Griphon]

False. If you look at the whole for balance, the part will be identical. Not balanced. Again disagree.. But I'll agree to disagree.

Depending what you mean, you are right or totally wrong. I mean you can't change base game concepts from the d20 or it stops being d20. Things like the multiple hits per 'round' of a TWFer. Or 1.5 str modifier to gain more DPS from using two handers. Those are core ideas. Since you can use enhancements, you can do things like increase the str multiplier and still be in the spirit of it.. but you couldn't reduce the number of attacks per round, or reduce the str modifier.

You can easily make S&B gain more out of Kensai through core changes. However, you are right that S&B DPS builds are forever doomed whatever you do about it, unless you create illogical modifications to make them better than what they currently are.


There are less benefits in it for S&B characters than TWF or THF characters.

Just because it is less attractive to S&B characters it does not mean it is unattractive to them. You are mixing the two.
I'll agree that there are less. But then can you honestly say there is enough to make them look attractive to the a S&B or rangered fighter aside from it being the 'only way' to increase his DPS?

If it's going to be that way for two of the 4 styles.. Actually 3 of the 4 styles since it only increases the DPS of TWF, then it should be that way for all. (This is against he idea of increased 'special triggers'.

See red

[Borror0]

When ever I've used 'S&B' I've tried to make it clear that said individual isn't always going for AC. So please don't think 'oh he must be an AC tank.'

I know, but if he does that... he will be gimped.

Gimped compared to an intimitank. Gimped compared to a TWF with similar AC and wat better DPS. Gimped compared to a THF with way better DPS.

[Desteria]

[COLOR="Red"] When ever I've used 'S&B' I've tried to make it clear that said individual isn't always going for AC. So please don't think 'oh he must be an AC tank.'
COLOR]

if he isent going for AC and is useing a sheild he obviusly is Not min/maxing there for won't care that THF gets a little more out of it, hell be happy to get his bonus.
I'm not saying he MUST be an AC tank i'm saying if hes some one that REALLY cares about the cost vrerse benifit of the enchments/build etc then HE is an AC tank, and there for wont take kensi because he will be takign the once that focuse on his fortay...

Note: I say this form the perspective of a THF that MAY just TAKE the defender one because it fits my concept better however I also power game sooo it's goign to be a close call, but then my fighter has alwasy gone both ways, he cna get near MAX S&B AC while getting MAX THF dps, (obviusly NOT at exacly the same time )

And for the example of a tactics fighter IF your a tacktics fighter and your not goign fro AC *** do you have a sheild at all grab a 2hander and use that, get more damage at ZERO lose to your self and suddenly kensi gives you more, IF you say why i have that sheild becasue it gives me GFL then the answer is simple that COST of one hand WAS worth it over the bigger bonuses for you form kensi....

[Griphon]

Thats HOW D&D balaces such as it does balace it balaces as a whole you HAVE to look at the big picture, Power attack for example is horrable unbalaced with in it self; I mean THF and TWF get twice the benifit in PnP of S&B BUT over all that is balaced by S&B getitng to use a sheild OR some other off hand item....
As a note in 3.0 i think it was PA was 1 for 1 for all weapons consiquently NO one USED THF the realyl wasent a benifit to it why sacrifice a HUGE amount of defense for only a very minimal gain, (the 1.5 str thing sicne in PnP str gets no where near there levels it does in DDO it realyl was a minisqule gain). When 3.5 came out the changed PA to work twice as well on 2handed thus suddenly you had a lot more 2hand fighter pop up, but they sacrificed a lot of defense to do this over all there was still a balace point.
Thank you that explains why I wasn't that familiar with the extra damage from PA for 2handed weapons. I only had a gaming group during the breif era of 3.0. So I guess I'm a little foggy on the 3.5 stuff. (And very foggy on 4.0)



YES all peopel that take kensi from a power gaming stand point SHOULD be THF or TWF's it's a Damage PRC, if they are S&B and they take kensi the charakter is obviusly NOT built to maximize it's potetial so who casres if i get the most form the class, D&D PRC are like that they are noramly only good FOR one or 2 select styles or build designs, any oen else takign them is takign them for RP resons or to get specal requierments liek class skills a fighter cant get to get in to there REAL prc later.

YES all Fighters that go S&B and are power gaming it SHOULD go a PRC that is build for defensive characters once agian se above thats teh natue of D&D PRC's. Do all S&B have to go defenders no lots wont because they will chose somethign else because they don't care about min/maxign or they want another one for RP reasons.

This is exactly an idea that I'm against. It shouldn't be though of in 'power gamer' thought. That means it's imbalanced to begin with if you get my drift. The game should not be designed towards Power gamers.


P.S. Withe martial handbook for 4th ed there are a lot more options, then before nothing like 3.5 but then you have a lot more pths and ways to alter them for at leats teh matial characters now.

I've got the core books for 4.0. I've read through them and don't like the changes they made to the game. It's too... uh.. restrictive? I dunno. You start as a wizard and you get to select a FEW abilities. boring!

[Griphon]

Cost verse benifit ok i forgot one space shoot me!

You left out one space, and I think i skipped over one whole word as I was reading it.

[Borror0]

I mean you can't change base game concepts from the d20 or it stops being d20. Things like the multiple hits per 'round' of a TWFer. Or 1.5 str modifier to gain more DPS from using two handers. Those are core ideas. Since you can use enhancements, you can do things like increase the str multiplier and still be in the spirit of it.. but you couldn't reduce the number of attacks per round, or reduce the str modifier.

You can address that issue without modifying what you have mentioned...

I'll agree that there are less. But then can you honestly say there is enough to make them look attractive to the a S&B or rangered fighter aside from it being the 'only way' to increase his DPS?

Do you agree that if it's the best PrE for a ranged fighter, he will take it?

Ignore, for now, the fact that there is absolutely no reason to roll a ranged fighters. Instead, imagine that by taking this enhancement, ranged fighters are balanced in comparison to all three other fighting styles. You see no more threads asking to buff ranged combat, nor is TWF, THF or S&B overpowered/underpowered. In that situation, does it really matter who gains most of out it?

If you answered yes to the first question and no to the second, you will see my point.

[Desteria]

I've got the core books for 4.0. I've read through them and don't like the changes they made to the game. It's too... uh.. restrictive? I dunno. You start as a wizard and you get to select a FEW abilities. boring!

I won't say i don't agree with you here, I love wizzards in PnP I still like then in 4th compared to others, BUT I miss my 3.5 versitility, but that a whole nother topic.

[Griphon]

Yes but untill fighters can TAKE tempest kensi woudl be a good thf or twf prc for them.

But, Desteria.. advancing two weapon or 2H fighting isn't the GOAL of this PrE. Like I said if thats what they really want they should create a PrE to do that.


I liek the idea of Dirfent prcs getitng the same style to the same place difrent ways IE a twf ranger takes tempest getts attack speed and thus deals more damage
A twf fighter takes Kensigets +damage/crit damage and thus deals more Hopefully similarly more damage, now you have 2 ways to get to the same end for teh same fightign style each are balaced each are difrent....

I'd rather they did PrCs instead of PrEs. PrE's always seemed like a half baked attempt to me.

For S&B you don;t look at damage and say they shoudl have the damage of THF or even get the same benifit from kensi lets be honest WHAT THF will take a prc that gives AC bonnus it woudl be totaly unballced becuase of the d20 a THF getting +10 AC would mean he gets hit lets be generus 5% less...
A S&B takes same PRC that +10 ac is goign to mean 50% less getitng hit it;s an absolute value BUT is it balanced no not really but does that matter NO why beacsue THF is not a defender style if a tHF wants to go defender they are already saying hey I'm not going to be good at this but i just want it anyway becasue it;s COOL.
Same thign for kensi S7B can takit sayign hey this isent as good for me but i just want it because it's cool.

No you don't expect a 1weapon fighter to dish out the DPS of a THF and a TWF. (This has been addressed already.)
However it's it not unreasonable to want to get the same bonus from the exact same AP costs.

No freebies. No extras. That is what I'm calling for.
And as I've said before.. If they want kensia to have an increased chance of 'Glancing Blow Triggers' they can add it as another enhancement.

[Griphon]

You can address that issue without modifying what you have mentioned...


Ok. Show me how? And remember to keep it in spirit with the the concept of DnD 2HF and 2WFing.

Do you agree that if it's the best PrE for a ranged fighter, he will take it?
Yes. If it's the best PrE for a ranged fighter the average Joe will take it.

Ignore, for now, the fact that there is absolutely no reason to roll a ranged fighters. Instead, imagine that by taking this enhancement, ranged fighters are balanced in comparison to all three other fighting styles. You see no more threads asking to buff ranged combat, nor is TWF, THF or S&B overpowered/underpowered. In that situation, does it really matter who gains most of out it?

Does it really matter who gained the most? Yes. Because if I understand correctly you outlined that all the methods of fighting were well balanced. Then if somebody did gain something else quite possibly you trashed the balance.

If you answered yes to the first question and no to the second, you will see my point.
I didn't. And I don't. Which I think is boiling down to the main points of disagreements between us... I'm not cool with the idea of a certain type of character gaining more than another type when buying the same enhancement for the same cost.

You, on the other hand, seem to have no problem with it.

Red again.

(Man, I'm at work, maybe I should actually.. ya know.. do my own work? Neyah!)

[Borror0]

But, Desteria.. advancing two weapon or 2H fighting isn't the GOAL of this PrE. Like I said if thats what they really want they should create a PrE to do that.

It's not because it is not the main goal that is undesirable.

I'd rather they did PrCs instead of PrEs. PrE's always seemed like a half baked attempt to me.

They already said they will also do PrC.

I personally love the PrE. I simply dislike that they are restricted by class.

[Borror0]

Ok. Show me how? And remember to keep it in spirit with the the concept of DnD 2HF and 2WFing.

The idea is not to touch two-weapon fighting nor two-handed fighting, but rather S&B and ranged.

I won't touch ranged as I am not an expert in that area. I'll leave that to Turial and Aesop. They have good suggestions on how to improve ranged combat. If you are interested in how they would do it, just do a quick research on them. However, regarding S&B there are a couple of ways to do it. So far, the best I have seen would be adding shield bashing hooks.

More thoughts could be put into this. But you got to attack the problem at the root. Not on the surface.

As we say here, you can't build an house on rotten foundations.

EDIT:

Does it really matter who gained the most? Yes. Because if I understand correctly you outlined that all the methods of fighting were well balanced. Then if somebody did gain something else quite possibly you trashed the balance.

You didn't understand it properly. (Not your fault, it was weirdly stated.)

It is balanced AFTER he picks it up.

I'm not cool with the idea of a certain type of character gaining more than another type when buying the same enhancement for the same cost.

You, on the other hand, seem to have no problem with it.

Of course I don't!

All I care is if fighting styles are balanced. If there are plenty of valid build options. I couldn't care if John Smith gains more of that enhancement than I will. All I care is if he is more powerful than I am. He ain't, then why should I complain at all? I rock, he rocks. Everything is fine. We just drew our power from different sources.