Fighter Kensai Preview

[Griphon]

K..

Lemme circle the wagons and summarize some points... Or at least the points I'm concerned with the balance issue of of Kensia PrE

Kensia, as it sits now, gives more benefits to a certain type of fighting style(s), while costing the same for all fighting styles. (Fact)

(Opinion) This isnt 'fair' for those people who use a S&B fighter who specialize in a weapon type. If the goal of the PrE is to represent somebody who has maximized his skills with a specific weapon, it should have no difference in fighting styles.

Peeps have already complained that a flat line value will then TWFers and at 2HFers need help with the DPS issue too. (I do acknowledge that it would flat values always help those with more swings. No brainer. Just for reference that this has zero in common with my complaint about the fact that 2Hander fighting style is getting -MORE- for the same AP costs.)

TWFers and 2HFers aren't the only type of fighters in existance on DDO. It seems like the current method of 'one type with a bonus for a certain type' isn't going to work well. Sword and Board Style also exists. It's full of people who can't be an AC beast or DPS monster.


So to acknowledge the complaints I've suggested MULTIPLE lines of Kensia based on Fighting Type. 4 Types: A 2-Hander Kensia, a S&B Kensia, a 2WF Kensia and a Range Kensia.

I see a main Kensia line with a base line enhancement bonus line that only effects the main hand.. Then a secondary line on the Style. Here you can 'balance' the effects with the costs more effectively.

Kensia 2Hander - Grants the possible chance of Glancing Blow with special effects.
Kensia 2WF - Allowing the usage of the benefits with the second hand
Kensia S&B - Increased ability with the primary hand weapon.
Kensia Ranged - Increased ability with Ranged Weapon.

[Griphon]

Desteria, ever heard of multiquote? :P

.. I haven't..

I suxxor at this whole forum stuff.

[Tanka]

.. I haven't..

I suxxor at this whole forum stuff.

The button next to the Quote button is the Multiquote. Hit as many as you want, hit Post Reply, ta-da! Multiquote!

[Borror0]

.. I haven't..

I suxxor at this whole forum stuff.

You see this little white squares like this one? If you click them, it will select all the posts you want. Then, you can press Quote or Post Reply and they will all show up.

[Boldrin]

I'm almost glad I have a pure fighter now

[Borror0]

Just for reference that this has zero in common with my complaint about the fact that 2Hander fighting style is getting -MORE- for the same AP costs.)

If the THF benefits would changed to have the exact same numbers as TWF, would you then complain that TWF is getting more than THF?

Because that would be the case.

TWFers and 2HFers aren't the only type of fighters in existance on DDO.

You are talking to someone who has an intimitank as his main since Module 4.0. I know that.

You got to understand that a S&B DPS character is a flawed concept. There is nothing you can do about it via a PrE.

[Griphon]

If the THF benefits would changed to have the exact same numbers as TWF, would you then complain that TWF is getting more than THF?

Because that would be the case.

First off.. realize I really have no qualm between 2H and 2W fighting styles. That didn't come up because of me.. So yeah. Why even point that at me?

For me.. and assuming you're using the 'method' I laid out at the bottom of the post you quote... The balancing factor would be the AP COST of the Kensai - sub enhancements. Give the underpowered style some love at a cheaper cost.... While the giving some over powered style less love at the same cost or higher.

If you have a base line benefit line and 4 sub lines with their own benefits then the total benefits could be more tailored to the idea of balance of 'power' and balance of 'cost'.

And yes, I realize that due to some choices made that the 'sword and board' idea is sort of a FAIL! Which would be the reason that I complain adding things that would further decrease it's value, as well as offering ideas to fix some of the differences. I disagree that there is nothing you can do about helping it in a PrE. Every little bit helps, yah?

[Borror0]

First off.. realize I really have no qualm between 2H and 2W fighting styles.

Aren't you the one complaining that THF is getting too much from this enhancement?

The balancing factor would be the AP COST of the Kensai - sub enhancements.

AP cost is a weak balancing factor. TWF would be way better than THF in the way you desire it to be.

Why do you oppose balancing the reward they get?!

Every little bit helps, yah?

That is usually true, but not in this case.

Let's put it this way:

• S&B: Low DPS, high AC.
• TWF: High DPS, decent AC.
• THF: Higer DPS, practically no AC

While it is not that way right now for stupid reasons, that should be about what it looks like if Eladrin desires balance between fighting styles while keeping them different. (He does.) That is the problem with S&B DPSers. They are at... less low DPS and decent AC? They are the equivalent of TWF, but with worse DPS, procs and Combat Feats.

[Griphon]

Aren't you the one complaining that THF is getting too much from this enhancement? No I'm complaining that 2Handers are getting more for the same cost. Subtle difference.


AP cost is a weak balancing factor. TWF would be way better than THF in the way you desire it to be. Cost is only part of the balancing act. (Do you only like read part of the posts and make comments?) The other part would be, as I said in the post you quoted, to give the styles that 'weak' for what ever reason slightly better enhancements than the overpowered ones.

Why do you oppose balancing the reward they get?!Threw me a curve here, I think. Rewards weren't mentioned! So, it came out at me out of left field. But.. Um.. last I checked I was the one calling for Balancing....

That is usually true, but not in this case.
Let's put it this way:

• S&B: Low DPS, high AC. Disagree: Moderate AC and Low to Moderate DPS depending on gear and weapon type.
• TWF: High DPS, decent AC. With the right equipment and build, Agreed. High AC tends to come from raid loot which throws this back into the 'lets keep it in the Average Joe concept range.
• THF: Higer DPS, practically no AC

While it is not that way right now for stupid reasons, that should be about what it looks like if Eladrin desires balance between fighting styles while keeping them different. (He does.) That is the problem with S&B DPSers. They are at... less low DPS and decent AC? They are the equivalent of TWF, but with worse DPS, procs and Combat Feats. I'd consider a S&B who specalized in Kopesh as a moderate DPSer since they can crit into the 140 range carry over tons of extra damage from Shroud type gear. Having said that do I realize they are lower of the 3 mentioned types.

Replies in Red

[Eladrin]

Personally, I would take the glancing blow part off and make it universal to all characters wielding a two-handed weapons. Maybe moving the bonuses from Kensai to some of the two-handed fighting feats could be a way to do it. But, no matter how Eladrin manages the glancing blow part, Kensai would favor two-weapon fighters over two-handed fighters unless Eladrin varies the numbers from one fighting style to the other.

Might as well drop this in here too. (I'll edit the original post as well, so people don't have to go digging for it.)

The Two Handed Fighting chain of feats has also been changed to increase (from zero) the chance of glancing blows producing magical weapon effects.

[Tanka]

The Two Handed Fighting chain of feats has also been changed to increase (from zero) the chance of glancing blows producing magical weapon effects.

THANK YOU!

100% is overboard, but a chance is AWESOME!

[geoffhanna]

This is going to be very cool. My barbarian/ftr eagerly awaits her return to prominence.

Female Halfling Barbarian/Kensai Maulist Raging Battlesqueak FTW

[Griphon]

Might as well drop this in here too. (I'll edit the original post as well, so people don't have to go digging for it.)

The Two Handed Fighting chain of feats has also been changed to increase (from zero) the chance of glancing blows producing magical weapon effects.

Nice. Some luv for the 2Hander types.

[Borror0]

No I'm complaining that 2Handers are getting more for the same cost. Subtle difference.

That is somewhere between "not even true" and "debatable, show the numbers".

The other part would be, as I said in the post you quoted, to give the styles that 'weak' for what ever reason slightly better enhancements than the overpowered ones.

...this sentence doesn't make any sense.

If I am getting it right, which I am totally not sure of, you want to give weaker styles better enhancements? This is exactly what you are arguing against!

Threw me a curve here, I think. Rewards weren't mentioned! So, it came out at me out of left field.

Huh?! Maybe you just didn't get what I meant.

A TWF gets more out of +2 to damage per swing than a THF. Agreed? If you agree to this, you agree with me that if the enhancement consist of giving +2 damage per swing then it is more rewarding for a TWF to pick that enhancement? How would it be bad for them to take that reality in consideration and adjust the benefits to each fighting style so that everyone gets what about as much?

• S&B: Low DPS, high AC. Disagree: Moderate AC and Low to Moderate DPS depending on gear and weapon type.
• TWF: High DPS, decent AC. With the right equipment and build, Agreed. High AC tends to come from raid loot which throws this back into the 'lets keep it in the Average Joe concept range.

Replies in Red

It was a description of what it should. Not what it is. A description of what it currently is would look like this:

• S&B: Crappy DPS, decent AC.
• THF: High DPS, practically no AC.
• TWF: Higher DPS, crazy high AC.

Regarding your 'average Joe' comment, it's actually harder to get good S&B AC than good TWF AC.

I'd consider a S&B who specalized in Kopesh as a moderate DPSer since they can crit into the 140 range carry over tons of extra damage from Shroud type gear.

If 50% of the DPS a TWF character could deal means moderate to you, then you are right.

I guess your definition of moderate is "at 50%".

[Borror0]

The Two Handed Fighting chain of feats has also been changed to increase (from zero) the chance of glancing blows producing magical weapon effects.

Cool. That should help in putting THF on the map again. Good news.

Now, about monk splash and Icy Raiment...

[nbhs275]

What i would love to know, is if now because of kensia's ki generating effect, your adding any additional weapons to the monks flurry lineup.

Are you adding whirling steel? A feat allowing flurry with longswords? Or is a kensia able to use monk abilities with the weapon he specializes with? This would be a great thing to know for many of use that have wanted to make some monk/fighter mixes but have been hesitant because of the compared strength of the ranger/monk builds.

[Borror0]

The Two Handed Fighting chain of feats has also been changed to increase (from zero) the chance of glancing blows producing magical weapon effects.

Oh, by the way, could it be possible to receive the definitive percentages when you settle on what it would be?

I am guessing they are still subject to changes but when you are more decided on what it will look like.. it'd be awesome to know.

[nbhs275]

Oh, by the way, could it be possible to receive the definitive percentages when you settle on what it would be?

I am guessing they are still subject to changes but when you are more decided on what it will look like.. it'd be awesome to know.

hopefully it scales with the feats in some predictable order, maybe 10% base for everyone and an additional 5-7 for each feat....and maybe another 15ish from kensie..would be nice for wounding or para to proc 30-40% of the time.

[Griphon]

That is somewhere between "not even true" and "debatable, show the numbers".

These two Enhancements are the ones I have issue with, Borro.

Kensai <Specific Weapon> Mastery I
Cost: 1 AP
Prereqs: Level 6 Fighter, Fighter Kensai I, Weapon Specialization: <appropriate weapon type>
Benefit (One handed, ranged, or thrown weapons): You gain an additional +1 bonus to hit and damage, and +2 to confirm criticals and critical damage (before multipliers) when using a <weapon>.
Benefit (Two handed weapons): You gain an additional +1 bonus to hit, +2 to damage and to confirm criticals and +4 to critical damage (before multipliers), as well as improved glancing blows that have a chance of applying magical weapon effects when using a <weapon>.

Kensai <Specific Weapon> Mastery II
Cost: 1 AP
Prereqs: Level 12 Fighter, Fighter Kensai II, Fighter <Specific Weapon> Specialization I, Kensai <Specific Weapon> Mastery I, Greater Weapon Specialization: <appropriate weapon type>
Benefit (One handed, ranged, or thrown weapons): You gain an additional +1 bonus to hit and damage, and +2 to confirm criticals and critical damage (before multipliers) when using a <weapon>.
Benefit (Two handed weapons): You gain an additional +1 bonus to hit, +2 to damage and to confirm criticals and +4 to critical damage (before multipliers), as well as improved glancing blows that have an increased chance of applying magical weapon effects when using a <weapon>.

Terms used:
Two hander = Somebody swinging a two handed weapon
Two Weapon = somebody who swings two weapons
One Hander = Somebody who swings one weapon in one hand. (More than likely weilding a Kopesh, Bastard Sword, or Dwarven Waraxe, Rapier or other 'moderate' DPS weapon.) Can also be referenced as 'Sword and Board' as long as you don't assume this implies the character is shooting for HIGH AC as somebody interested in a higher AC will probably be going for the 'Defender' PrE.


Please note the different totals for One Handed Weapon and for Two Handed weapons. See how 2-handers are getting more from the Enchancement than One Handers. That is my complaint. One handers are paying the exact same cost, but are getting less 'reward' for the same enhancement. Wait I better show it all. Differences will be bold.

Considering only the two enhancements mentioned:
1-Handers get: +2 hit, +2 Damage, +4 Crit Confirm, and +4 Crit Damage.
2-handers get: +2 Hit, +4 Damage, +4 Crit Confirm, and +8 Crit Damage.

This difference while helping the Two-handers, it's hurting the One-Hand S&B crew. I had proposed a flat across the board benefit for all weapon types.. This is where the cries of making it same bonus across the board would only help Two Weapon Fighters. (Note: I have no care in the world about Two Weapon Fighters.) To calm these cries, I suggest splitting the line further and giving the Two Weapon Fighters their own enhancements to keep it from empowering an already healthy powered fighting style.

Splitting the bonus into styles even further would give them the ability to keep Two Weapons from being overpowered while possibly giving both 2-handers and 1-Handers a boost while keeping Two-Weapon Fighting from getting out of control.

So I guess there'd have to be 4 Kensia lines:
Kensia - Two Weapon Fighting
Kensia - Sword and Board
Kensia - Two handed Weapon
Kensia - Ranged/Thrown

If I am getting it right, which I am totally not sure of, you want to give weaker styles better enhancements? This is exactly what you are arguing against!

No it's not. See above. My complaint is the benefits of the Enhancement are better for 2-Handers than for 1-Handers for the same cost.

But yes. I did propose making the benefits for the Two Weapon Fighting line of Kensai that I suggested less than for for Two-handers or One-Handers. Either less or increase the cost for them, or both!

A really rough and dirty example would:
Leave Two-Handers at +2 Hit, +4 Damage, +4 Crit Confirm, and +8 Crit Damage.
Change One-hander to: +3 hit, +4 Damage, +4 Crit Confirm, and +6 Damage.
Leave Two Weapon at: +2 hit, +2 Damage, +4 Crit Confirm, and +4 Crit Damage.

AP costs could also be adjusted to cost more for the 'stronger' Fighting styles. Two Ap for Two weapon, perhaps.


So let me state the complaint again to make sure it's concise: Two Handers are getting more from the Enhancement than a person wielding a single one hand weapon while paying the same amount in APs

A TWF gets more out of +2 to damage per swing than a THF. Agreed? If you agree to this, you agree with me that if the enhancement consist of giving +2 damage per swing then it is more rewarding for a TWF to pick that enhancement? How would it be bad for them to take that reality in consideration and adjust the benefits to each fighting style so that everyone gets what about as much?

I do agree. But I'm thinking you thought when I was saying 'One-Handers'. That I'd meant one handed weapons.... Which would allow some confusion because it would lead to the same bonuses for Two Weapon Fighting. While I was meaning more 'Sword and Board' type who is going for Weapon Specialization and moderate AC.. (As opposed to a Sword and Board type who'd be more interested in a High AC PrE and would be more interested in the defender.

Hopefully with me again explaining the 4 different lines I'm proposing, you'll understand that when I talked of 'One handers' I should said 'Weapon & Shield'.

[Deathseeker]

I'm having trouble containing my joy over all of this I'm so excited. But there is one big problem!!!!

WE NEED TOUGHER MOBS!

The current bunch have AC's that are too low. It's too easy to hit them. We keep adding all these goodies to the players...help the mobs a little so pure damage isnt the only thing that's desired by most!