Fighter Kensai Preview

[Griphon]

Your complaint would be somewhat valid if it would be phrased differently.

Something like "Two-handed and two-weapon fighting characters are getting more out of these enhancements than characters than characters fighting with a weapon in their main hand and a shield in their offhand. That shouldn't be allowed." would be more valid than your current complaint. Thank you Borror0, thats exactly my complaint rephrased. (It's good to know somebody is at least 'getting where you're coming from'.

However, then, a case could be made about two-handed and two-weapon fighting being more DPS-centric than S&B. Here I have to disagree. This goes back to the idea of benefits and sacrifices. Both TWF and THF are 'advanced' styles and supposed to be more DPS centric than S&B (which should be considred 'basic' style)

And if nothing would have been done, it would hurt both the THF and the S&B characters at the gain (once more) of TWF. I agree. I, however, do not see the need to widen the disadvantage of the S&B crew yet more.

What do you mean? I orginally meant that I didn't care as to how the PrE affected the TWFs. I've since 'seen the light' to realize that the 2HF and the 'One Hand weapon' issue was split to keep the TWF in check.. But believe they failed to consider the S&B Crew. Especially when one more Sub-Enchancement line would have resolved the issue.

If I got what you suggest right, you suggest making the enhancements cheaper to the weaker styles and than adding other enhancements, that would be stronger and specialized for them, in order to make up the difference. How is that any different than what you are complaining about?! It is different in that it would not be further hurting any one Style. All styles would be addressed and slight bumps given to those who needed it. Balance.

You are simply moving how it is done. Yes and No. My ideas would keep from hurting any one style, while helping those that need it. Current design advance both TWF and THF styles more so than Ranged or S&B. Breaking them apart further would help 3 styles instead of mostly helping 2.
Results are the same, except it requires more work from Turbine. Um.. Results not the same, check the above Red for clarification. More work for Turbine. Yes. Yes it would. More work for Eladrin and his cohorts of Coding. But I think the changes would make for a better game in the long run, by not advancing any single style more so than any other.

That is just silly. What ever. Thanks for belittling valid ideas, concerns and suggestions.

Like all the doctors that I have seen in the last year, you are trying to ignore the real problem and simply work around it instead of fixing it. The same way they try to prescribe me sleeping pills when I talk to them about my sleeping disorders problem (and by sleeping disorders I mean that when I wake up every morning with the feeling someone had a lot of fun involving a shovel and my head while I slept),
A really.. uh.. 'heart warming' analogy or something. Sorry for your sleeping problems. I would suggest not ****ing off the person your sleeping with as they seem to be hitting you on the head with a shovel while you sleep soundly and deeply under the heavy medication prescribed by your doctors. (A joke folks. If you can't make fun somebody's medical issues sleeping.. then what can you poke fun at?)

you are trying to modify the enhancement so that S&B aren't so left behind rather than attacking what you would see as the real problem. Yes and No. I'm trying to stop the placement of a PrE that would advance the current trend of their only being 2FWers and 2HFers because S&D crew are so vastly 'inferior' in most ways. (Can't get the High AC, Can't get the high DPS.) Or one that would pigeon hole all S&B Crew to resort to having to go the 'Defender' route because it's the only benefit they can get.

A more personal comment that has little to do with the current conversation: But since you obviously know what I see as the 'real problem'.. Then you know the 'real problem' I see is the Enhancement system as a whole. But it's not like they're going to just rip it out... So I'm focusing on the proposed PrE and trying to get some 'balance' installed so that it doesn't cause further problems in the whole 'balance' concept.

(Oh and puh-lease.. Nobody say something stupid like 'You don't -have-' to take Enhancements. The game has been designed around them, making them required. Eample: A rogue w/o enhancement lines is near useless on higher level traps.)

Oh. And another problem is the liberal usage of 'Dodge' bonuses on certain items in the game which allow for extreme AC bonuses. Dodge should be rare as it's the only stacking bonus type... But again.. It's highly unlikely to get something removed/altered thats been in the game for ages.



The modifications that have been with THF in mind were to make sure THF would gain as much as TWF while keeping the spirit of the enhancement. Eladrin could have done it differently, but it would have the feeling he desired.Yes. And I'm trying to get him to double think and perhaps come to the realization that while it's good to help 2HF, it shouldn't be done in the same enhancement line as S&B who get nothing 'extra'. I am calling for a slight redesign of the PrE line, so that individual styles can be addressed if any single style is going to receive freebies... I see nothing wrong with this request.

But then, we get to the point where you are simply trying to make S&B be good in a way that can't happen. No. I don't believe I am. I see myself as only trying to stop a PrE that as is favors some fighting styles over others. (As well as give freebies to an individual style.) I'm trying to bring light to the view that perhaps this PrE could be redesigned in a different way and have better results for the game as w whole.

That would be extremely silly because two-weapon is getting as much out of it as THF...Yes. As I said above THF and TWF are getting nearly the same benefits when all considered. However as you aptly put it: My issue it the PrE favors 2WF and 2HF too much, while giving too little to S&B. (And possibly Range. I keep forgetting the other 'red headed step child of the Kensia possibilities.)

Replies in Red

[Desteria]

Replies in Red
And if nothing would have been done, it would hurt both the THF and the S&B characters at the gain (once more) of TWF.COLOR="Red"] I agree. I, however, do not see the need to widen the disadvantage of the S&B crew yet more.[/COLOR]

I see EVEN LESS need to widen the gap betwene TWF and EVERYTHING ELSE I'd rahter see on gap shrink and oen gap widen then 2 gaps widen Especaly wiht TWF is the oen that does not need ANY help at all...

[Desteria]

Replies in Red
(And possibly Range. I keep forgetting the other 'red headed step child of the Kensia possibilities.)

Range is the red headed step child of all DDO not just this PRC it can never pe made to good becasue in a MMO enviroment if range was as goo d as it is in PnP wich is devistating in the right hands, it would over power EVERY thign else and we woudl se enothign but peopel with bows kitting every thing.

[Borror0]

Thank you Borror0, thats exactly my complaint rephrased. (It's good to know somebody is at least 'getting where you're coming from'.

It's good to know that is what your complaint is, however this wasn't what you were saying before.

[ But believe they failed to consider the S&B Crew.

You are conscious that this is one of three PrE's dedicated to fighters?

Your argument holds no water at all. By the same logic you use, TWF should get +5 from per swing from Power Attack and both THF and S&B should get +10 from Power Attack. (Even there, it wouldn't be perfect since the swing speed are not perfect. S&B would gain more out of it than THF and TWF.) However, Power Attack is not made that way.

What matters is the whole. Not the parts.

I would suggest not ****ing off the person your sleeping with as they seem to be hitting you on the head with a shovel while you sleep soundly and deeply under the heavy medication prescribed by your doctors.

Ok, now you got me laughing. XD

But I don't take medication because it won't solve the problem. No point ruining my health for that.

[...] because S&D crew are so vastly 'inferior' in most ways. (Can't get the High AC, Can't get the high DPS.)

There, again, you are addressing the wrong issues.

If those problems exist, it is not due to this PrE. It's existence will not, should not and most likely cannot address the issues you are talking about.

Or one that would pigeon hole all S&B Crew to resort to having to go the 'Defender' route because it's the only benefit they can get.

It is as much pigeonholing to say S&B is about high AC than to say barbarians are about damage and rangers about range or TWF.

Then you know the 'real problem' I see is the Enhancement system as a whole.

Nope. I do not blame the enhancement system at all for this. If they are guilty of anything, it is to accentuate the inherent mistakes within the core rules.

The real problem is how S&B is designed compared to THF and TWF. Turbine limited Power Attack to +5 and to-hit matter very little. From that point, TWF is obviously going to get much better than bothy THF and S&B. Glancing blows can make up for the difference between THF and TWF if balanced properly.

So, the one being left out and flawed in his concept is S&B.

And another problem is the liberal usage of 'Dodge' bonuses on certain items in the game which allow for extreme AC bonuses. Dodge should be rare as it's the only stacking bonus type.

You won't see me disagreeing to that... and they have to do something about it.

Yes. And I'm trying to get him to double think and perhaps come to the realization that while it's good to help 2HF, it shouldn't be done in the same enhancement line as S&B who get nothing 'extra'. I am calling for a slight redesign of the PrE line, so that individual styles can be addressed if any single style is going to receive freebies... I see nothing wrong with this request.

Let me elaborate more on what I meant by that.

The clear flavor of Kensai is accuracy. Fighter Attack Bonus, Fighter Critical Accuracy and weapon focuses are prereqs; to-hit bonus, bonus to confirming critical hit and greater critical threat range are benefits. The problem with that flavor is that it will automatically flavor TWF over THF.

Eladrin could have done the enhancement in multiple ways where the enhancement would be more in favor of THF than it currently is, but I cannot think of a single way to do it without getting out of the "accuracy" theme that is expressed by these enhancements. Instead, what he seems to have decided to do is to make a special clause for THF so it isn't penalized.

Of the multiple ways he could have done it to make it more balanced between THF and TWF, S&B would have gained as much in comparison to TWF as it does now.

I don't believe I am. I see myself as only trying to stop a PrE that as is favors some fighting styles over others.

You can't prevent that from happening nor is it a good thing to stop.

What really matters, in the end, is the overall balance. Not the individual parts. Otherwise, you should be complaining about Power Attack.

And possibly Range. I keep forgetting the other 'red headed step child of the Kensia possibilities.

Here again, the real problem is that ranged sucks. It's not the fault of Kensai.

[Griphon]

There's more to this than just "Kensai", no? Or did I miss something from one of his other posts, maybe from another thread?

Yup, More coming. Yay for information floating down from the Devs.

I haven't seen you complain about S&B only getting +5 from Power Attack. When is that scheduled for?

So, Borror0? Do you often make these sort of comments that seem snide and only intended to try and get a rise out of somebody?

For the record, I have no issue that S&B only get +5 Power Attack. All fighting styles get the same benefit from this Feat. It's a Feat that everybody who meets the requirements can access and get the same benefits from no matter the melee style they use.. I see no problem with the game design of it.

I don't even see a problem with the Barbarian and the Warforged Power Attack enhancement lines. These affect all melee fighting styles equally as well.

So yeah.. Please take attempts at Troll-age else where.

Griphon is overreacting as that is only one out of three fighter PrE's.

Right! Because it's 'over reacting' to try and discuss things with out resorting to snide remarks or accusations. I'm a horrible human being. Okay, so maybe the joke about the whole sleep disorder thing could be troll-age. but it was a joke.

(Doing that reply in Red bit for Destria's post below)

The balace betwene THF and 1 weapon fighting is NOT a PRC issue it's over all style issue the BALANCE is ALWAYS there THF gets bigger bonuses to DAMAGE from a lto of things str PA etc BECAUSE they GIVE UP havign somethign in there off hand be it a sheild or what ever, (in ddo it;s limited to sheild or other weapon but where it comes form ie PnP there are varius other things you coudl want that hand for)
I can agree to this, I think. The Balance between THF and and 1 weapon fighting is not and probably should not be addressed in a PrE. Remember I initially suggested a flat bonus for all Fighting Styles because it wouldn't favor any specifically. (No need to say how it favors the TWFings, please.) But then I can also say that the balance between TWF and THF shouldn't be addressed in the PrE either... which would mean no increased chance to the glancing blows to give Special Effects inside the PrE.

For the record: THF only gains extra damage from higher damage dice, the str x 1.5 bonus and higher crit multiplers or crit range. Power attack effects all melee fighting styles the same. Power attack is added to the result of the damage dice along with strength damage, but is not multiplied by the 1.5 bit.

The point is THF SHOULD gain more form the same things then one hand fighting that is an INHERENT property of THF in D&D Simple as that,(eg. PA/str), they do pay a cost for this and that cost is loseing the use of there off hand for other things, liek holdign a sheild, (note sheidls are not just AC, you coudl use varius necro or other non ac sheild for all sorts of specal effects like GFL fearsom deathblock saves etc. etc.

I have no issue with THF or TWF outside of this PrE. I realize and agree with the idea that there some inherit things to each fighting style. Examples: 2HF getting more damage from str.
2WF getting more attacks per melee from two weapons.
S&B getting up to 9pts of AC more and shield extras.

However, these concepts still do not invalidate that the PrE should have a flat benefit value for all fighting styles. Or should be designed that bonuses are present for each individual style. It should -not- give extra bonuses to once style over others.

in the end when you consider the BIG picture or the WHOLE cost they are not payign the same price for a lesser gain, thf pays 2 hands 1 ap, 1 weapon pays 1 hand and 1 ap, the question is how mainy AP;s is hand worth?
BUT you cant make it more expensive imo because frankly it;s JUST barly worth it atm with all the pre costs, and you cant make it cost less then 1 so you cant make 1 handers cheaper and imo no change is needed.
If you make THF and TWF pay more to gain the benefits, then perhaps 1 weapon should be the default? If you want to use gain the extra benefits the PrE 'could' grant to the other fighting styles you pay more AP to do so. Example: Make Kensia affect only main hand weapon and give a flat value to it. The person wants to be able to get the benefits on his TWFing? He has to purcase the enhancement line that allows it. The person wants to increase the chances of added effects to his glancing blow for his THFer? He purchases the line for it.

Hurm.. This Multiquote bit isn't so hard once you get used to it. It does seem to 'add' the quote in the order you click them though.. Something I'll have to watch.

I see EVEN LESS need to widen the gap betwene TWF and EVERYTHING ELSE I'd rahter see on gap shrink and oen gap widen then 2 gaps widen Especaly wiht TWF is the oen that does not need ANY help at all...

I agree. Which is why I've gone so far as saying there needs to be at least 3 sub-enhancement lines that effects a certain style.

Range is the red headed step child of all DDO not just this PRC it can never pe made to good becasue in a MMO enviroment if range was as goo d as it is in PnP wich is devistating in the right hands, it would over power EVERY thign else and we woudl se enothign but peopel with bows kitting every thing.

I know it is. It's a sad sad thing too. My first character was a Ranged-Ranger, so it turned out to be a big let down because of the Nerfs to it. I disagree that it can't be made good with out it being made over powering. But this is not the thread for it, I think Aesop has a good thread running about possible improvements to Range.

[Borror0]

For the record, I have no issue that S&B only get +5 Power Attack. All fighting styles get the same benefit from this Feat. It's a Feat that everybody who meets the requirements can access and get the same benefits from no matter the melee style they use.. I see no problem with the game design of it.

Sorry, but that simply not true.

In the time that S&B gets a bonus of +25.00 damage from Power Attack, THF gets a bonus between 42.70 and +47.19 damage and TWF gets a bonus of 46.63 damage. That is at 16 BAB. If you have BAB of 14 or lower, the ratio will be different and you will also gain more out of Power Attack.

Your critique of this PrE could be applied to PA. If you are OK with PA, there is no reason to not be OK with this PrE.

Right! Because it's 'over reacting' to try and discuss things with out resorting to snide remarks or accusations. I'm a horrible human being.

Calm down. You are the one making snide remarks and accusations now.

I didn't call you an idiot, which you are not, I simply said your reaction is too hasty. We can judge the whole until we have seen the whole. We can only look at the design of this PrE and judge whether it is well designed or not. It is. Maybe that when we factor PrE's, feats, spells, gear or enhancements introduced in Module 9.0 I will have negative comments to make about the enhancement. But for now, Eladrin has made a good job one that one.

I might have suggest some slight modification, but nothing of the order you are suggesting. I'll wait to see Defenser and Knight of the Purple Dragon (Couldn't they have chosen a PrC with a more riddiculous name? hehe) before that. Possibly also Tempest II and III.

[Griphon]

You are conscious that this is one of three PrE's dedicated to fighters?

Yes I do realize that. And I'm ONLY focusing on what I see as imbalances internal to this specific PrE. Really, I am I'd rather the whole PrE a flat Benefit value to all fighting types. I only offered the 'solution' that involved special sub-enhancements to specific fighting styles when people complained it would be most beneficial to TWFers. The fact that TWF's more attack per second causes more dps and issues with special effects. That, however, is not something I'm trying to address in this thread. It's not the time nor place for it, right?

I also want to state that I realize PrE is specific to a character who wants to maximize his usage of the Specialized Weapon Feat. It's not the 'sword and board' PrE, it's not the 'Two Weapon fighting' PrE, and it's not the Two handed Fighting' PrE.. Nor should it become such. I can easily go with no special perks for any PrE and go with a flat value for all. (Again don't tell me how that helps TWF)

Your argument holds no water at all. By the same logic you use, TWF should get +5 from per swing from Power Attack and both THF and S&B should get +10 from Power Attack. (Even there, it wouldn't be perfect since the swing speed are not perfect. S&B would gain more out of it than THF and TWF.) However, Power Attack is not made that way.

My 'argument holds water' because as you've already shown.. the Feat Power Attack gives a base flat line bonus to ALL weapon fighting styles. That is exactly what I want for this PrE.. as I've stated previously. The PrE should give a flat value to all. (Again no mentioning of how that is better for TWFers please)

Possible Sub-Enhancements could be added if the developers feel inclined. A THF Kensia sub enchancement to give the extra chances at glancing blow damage with specials.

The restriction to place the PrE bonus to the main hand weapon would also keep it from advancing the TWFing PrE.


What matters is the whole. Not the parts.

Ok, now you got me laughing. XD

But I don't take medication because it won't solve the problem. No point ruining my health for that.
WOOT! Score one for the Griph. Laughs at things meant at joking are always good. Again sorry for the 'Sleeping Issue'. I have just yer basic Insomnia myself. So drugs at least help with that.

There, again, you are addressing the wrong issues.
Perhaps so.. The issue (Can't get the High AC, Can't get the high DPS.) comes from various factors, like the usage of too much dodge bonuses. But that isn't likely to change since it's been in the game for 'so long'.

If those problems exist, it is not due to this PrE. It's existence will not, should not and most likely cannot address the issues you are talking about.
Perhaps not. But then if it's not going to address issues for S&B Crew, then it should not also address issues for other classes. There should not be an extra chance to trigger 'special effects' on glancing blows. I view this as an attempt to increase the DPS of THFing because the whole concept of triggered specials is being added because the DPS of THF is lagging. If it's felt that it's needed to make a viable 2HF kensia, then make it another enhancement line under Kensia that they pick up at cost. No freebies for one style over others.

Nope. I do not blame the enhancement system at all for this. If they are guilty of anything, it is to accentuate the inherent mistakes within the core rules.

The real problem is how S&B is designed compared to THF and TWF. Turbine limited Power Attack to +5 and to-hit matter very little. From that point, TWF is obviously going to get much better than bothy THF and S&B. Glancing blows can make up for the difference between THF and TWF if balanced properly.

So, the one being left out and flawed in his concept is S&B.
And ranged fighter kensias.
Yes which is part of what my complaint about it favoring THF too much. Back to the whole flat benefit value to all styles.


You won't see me disagreeing to that... and they have to do something about it.

Let me elaborate more on what I meant by that.

The clear flavor of Kensai is accuracy. Fighter Attack Bonus, Fighter Critical Accuracy and weapon focuses are prereqs; to-hit bonus, bonus to confirming critical hit and greater critical threat range are benefits. The problem with that flavor is that it will automatically flavor TWF over THF.
Unless the benefits from the PrE are specificed to only help the 'main hand' weapon. This keeps TWF in check. While not hurting the other three fighting styles. A two handed weapon, a ranged weapon and a single handed weapon would all be considered being used in their main hand.

Eladrin could have done the enhancement in multiple ways where the enhancement would be more in favor of THF than it currently is, but I cannot think of a single way to do it without getting out of the "accuracy" theme that is expressed by these enhancements. Instead, what he seems to have decided to do is to make a special clause for THF so it isn't penalized.
And it's the added benefits to 2HF that I have issue with, of course. the suggestion that I made just above about making it 'main hand' weapon only would have been a better way to keep TWF in check with out resorting to 'freebies' for another style. (And the 'freebie' extra damage and of extra chances on the special effects of two handed weapon really makes 2HF more attractive, while making S&B Kensia less attractive.)

Of the multiple ways he could have done it to make it more balanced between THF and TWF, S&B would have gained as much in comparison to TWF as it does now.
Here's to hoping he tries reconsiders and possibly switches to the suggestion I've given. *crosses fingers* Think I could bribe him?


Original text that Bor's commenting on: Originally Posted by Griphon
I don't believe I am. I see myself as only trying to stop a PrE that as is favors some fighting styles over others.

You can't prevent that from happening nor is it a good thing to stop.

I may not be able to prevent it.. But I certainly think I can and should try. I also see it as a good thing to stop because the PrE in question should not favor any class over an other. It's about Weapon Specialization and being uber cool with that weapon. It's not about styles. Tempest is the 2WF PrE.. There might be a Barbarian PrE that comes out as the THF PrE. Lets not focus this one on ANY style.

What really matters, in the end, is the overall balance. Not the individual parts. Otherwise, you should be complaining about Power Attack.
As I am only working with issues internal to the PrE, I am only looking at the 'overall balance' of the PrE itself. The Goal of the PrE is accuracy and 'damage' with a specialized weapon. No style mentioned or considered, then it should be balanced to give as much benefit to Ranged as it does Two handed .. Which should be the same as it does to Two weapon Fighting.. and all should be balanced with Sword and Board.. No freebies.. Nothing special to any.

One crevate to that last: To the main and required Kensia lines. Optionals to the main kensia line could be added. Examples: The increased chance of 'Special effects'. Or if the 'main hand' restriction is used then an extra (and hopefully expensive) enhancement to give kensia bonuses to offhand weapons.


Here again, the real problem is that ranged sucks. It's not the fault of Kensai. Another thread and another issue, yeah. I know. Poor Range. It could be better with out overpowering.

Replies in Red

[Desteria]

For the record, I have no issue that S&B only get +5 Power Attack. All fighting styles get the same benefit from this Feat. It's a Feat that everybody who meets the requirements can access and get the same benefits from no matter the melee style they use.. I see no problem with the game design of it.

I don't even see a problem with the Barbarian and the Warforged Power Attack enhancement lines. These affect all melee fighting styles equally as well.

So yeah.. Please take attempts at Troll-age else where.

Are you smokign somethign THF and TWF both get a LOT more out opf PA then S&B are we playign the same D&D based game here?

[Desteria]

For the record: THF only gains extra damage from higher damage dice, the str x 1.5 bonus and higher crit multiplers or crit range. Power attack effects all melee fighting styles the same. Power attack is added to the result of the damage dice along with strength damage, but is not multiplied by the 1.5 bit.

Your right it;s not mutiplied buy the 1.5 bit at all......

IT DOES HOWEVER GIVE +10 DAMAGE TO THF!!!!!!!

Adn TWF gets +5 to EACH hand fro +10 total.

Noth both of these are core D&D mechanics.

[SteeleTrueheart]

Edit:
Since it came up in the discussion, the Two Handed Fighting chain of feats has also been changed to increase (from zero) the chance of glancing blows producing magical weapon effects.

My THF paladin salutes you!

Quick questions
1. Since there is a monk flavour to this PrC. Will Unarmed be a kensai choice of weapon?
2. Will we be able to take more than 1 PrC? ie will taking levels in 1 PrC disable the choice of others? (similar to the faith lines paladins and clerics currently get)

[Griphon]

Sorry, but that simply not true.

In the time that S&B gets a bonus of +25.00 damage from Power Attack, THF gets a bonus between 42.70 and +47.19 damage and TWF gets a bonus of 46.63 damage. That is at 16 BAB. If you have BAB of 14 or lower, the ratio will be different and you will also gain more out of Power Attack.

Your critique of this PrE could be applied to PA. If you are OK with PA, there is no reason to not be OK with this PrE.

See.. now you're making my eyes glaze over by using weird numbers. LOL I realize their stats including attack per 'round'.

By definition PA gives each swing +5 attack at the cost of -5 to hit. It is treating each style exactly the same.. That is why I have no issue with Power Attack. That is why I'd have no problem with Kensia if it treated each style exactly the same.

Please remember for the main Kensia PrE I want a -flat benefit value-. +1's and +2's being exactly the same for all fighting styles. No 'freebies' for any fighting styles either (referring to the increased glancing bow specials)

Anything extra should be added as non-required Kensia enhancements.



Calm down. You are the one making snide remarks and accusations now.
Hey I'm allowed a snarky reply once in a while, yeah? *snark*snark*

I didn't call you an idiot, which you are not, I simply said your reaction is too hasty. We can judge the whole until we have seen the whole. We can only look at the design of this PrE and judge whether it is well designed or not. It is. Maybe that when we factor PrE's, feats, spells, gear or enhancements introduced in Module 9.0 I will have negative comments to make about the enhancement. But for now, Eladrin has made a good job one that one.
I am looking at the whole.. the whole PrE as it's been announced by Eladrin. As I've said before I'm only focusing on the imbalances inside this certain PrE. Giving Extra benefits to one fighting style for the same cost is a flaw in the PrE. It has nothing to do with anything else introduced in Mod9.

It makes no sense (to me) for it to have a special 'Freebie' in both +'s and increased glancing blow special triggers for the same cost. So I say it's unbalanced and needs reviewed and perhaps altered.


I might have suggest some slight modification, but nothing of the order you are suggesting. I'll wait to see Defenser and Knight of the Purple Dragon (Couldn't they have chosen a PrC with a more riddiculous name? hehe) before that. Possibly also Tempest II and III.
Oh I'll wait for those as well, and I'll give my review and opinion based on the PrE's individuals again. I'm not comparing this PrE to them, or waiting to hear that they'll be better for say S&B. Those aren't the issues.

And picking on Knight of the Purple Dragon? I can do that! Are there Purple dragons? Is that what you get when you mate a Red dragon with a Blue Dragon? Are we sure it's not the Amethyst dragon? (Which really sounds better). Does a purple dragon lisp when it roars? Is it's breath weapon flower petals and peace signs?

Replies in red.. Jokes in Purple

[Desteria]

I have no issue with THF or TWF outside of this PrE. I realize and agree with the idea that there some inherit things to each fighting style. Examples: 2HF getting more damage from str.
2WF getting more attacks per melee from two weapons.
S&B getting up to 9pts of AC more and shield extras.

Really ARE we playign the same game?

THF gets 1.5 str TWF gets 1.5 str(1x on mian hand 0.5x on off hand), twf get more effetcs like holy etc., in PnP one of the balacing factors to all this is the extra penaltys tWF takes stops them from Power attacking for MORE but DDO has caped PA at 5 all the time, (well once your Bab is above 5 that is), IE in PnP a THF coudl PA for 2 more then a TWF have the same To hit bonus and get 4 more damage....
Now in PnP if both are getitgn a full attack most tWF will STILL distroy a THF BUT here the huge BUT... in PnP actuyl getitng your full attack action is MUCH rarer you have to move more and when BOTH a THF adn TWF get only one attack THF wins in the end it tends to average out that THF does the best damage with the least defense, TWF does almost as much and noramly has better defnese... S&B does less damage, btu not the the same degree as in ddo imo, and hase the beast AC....
Note animated sheilds some times mess this up , (wistles inocently about his dwarven defender that had an animated door er tower sheild and used a great sword

[Desteria]

If you make THF and TWF pay more to gain the benefits, then perhaps 1 weapon should be the default? If you want to use gain the extra benefits the PrE 'could' grant to the other fighting styles you pay more AP to do so. Example: Make Kensia affect only main hand weapon and give a flat value to it. The person wants to be able to get the benefits on his TWFing? He has to purcase the enhancement line that allows it. The person wants to increase the chances of added effects to his glancing blow for his THFer? He purchases the line for it.

Btu what i'm saying is in the big pictuly the tHF IS ALREADY PAYING MORE, hes just not payign more in AP's....

make 3 seperate encments make them have the exact efects they do now they can cost as follows
1 handed: cost 1 AP and you must spend 1 hand to weild a weapon.
2 handed: cost 1 ap and you must spend 2 HANDS to weild a wepon.
TWF: cost 1 AP and you must spend 2 HANDS to weild 2 wepons.

There you go they each have difrent costs the 2 that give same benifit level cost the same and the one that gives less costs less...

[Borror0]

Power Attack gives a base flat line bonus to ALL weapon fighting styles.

It does not. Within the feat's description it even say, and I quote directly from the Compendium "While using a two-handed weapon, you gain double the bonus to damage."

Yes which is part of what my complaint about it favoring THF too much. Back to the whole flat benefit value to all styles.

Anything that improves DPS will nearly always favor TWF over S&B. The only exceptions I can think of are critical threat ranges - only from a DPS point of view, it favors TWF in other ways though - and faster attacking speed. Depending on the bonus, THF can be also favored over S&B. That is because TWF and THF are, by definition, DPS-centric fighting styles. Sure, you can deal DPS via S&B but it is always going to be lesser.

If you think there should be something done to prevent that gap from getting too big, core changes are what has to be suggested. Not changing this PrE.

Flat does not mean equal.

Unless the benefits from the PrE are specificed to only help the 'main hand' weapon. This keeps TWF in check.

It also makes of it a lousy PrE line.

Here's to hoping he tries reconsiders and possibly switches to the suggestion I've given. *crosses fingers* Think I could bribe him?

They couldn't work. The benefits are separated between Two-Handed and One-Handed weapons.

Plus, it makes no sense at all that you can hit harder with a shield in your hands...

No style mentioned or considered, then it should be balanced to give as much benefit to Ranged as it does Two handed

Like Power Attack gives different fighting styles different benefits, there is nothnig wrong with a PrE doing the same.

All that matters, in the end, would be the overall strength of the builds. Who cares if this or that fighting style gets more out of whatever enhancement.

[Griphon]

Edited out because statements were proven to be wrong, as I didn't remember something

[Desteria]

I know it is. It's a sad sad thing too. My first character was a Ranged-Ranger, so it turned out to be a big let down because of the Nerfs to it. I disagree that it can't be made good with out it being made over powering. But this is not the thread for it, I think Aesop has a good thread running about possible improvements to Range.

Ive seen what range getting a good big buff did in EQ, all the rangers were soling insain STUFF, stuff that was sposed to be hard for more then one group....

I really wish i could rebuild in ddo some of my SWEET ranged built fighters/barbs, more STR then DEX and weapon specs etc in PnP it;s a sick combination, you really NEVER miss, even your iteratives, and though each hit is smaller it;s easter to bypass most DR's and they add up very very fast and you always get full attacks that are much rarer for other guys and do ti all from a safe distance.... note my Dwarven defender loved these guiys to as i could cork a hallway basicaly unhittable my selfl while they decimated everything over my head btu sadly IF they buffed ranged to it;s PnP levels really we would see very little else, it would imo be worse then the curent TWF overpoulation.

Btw the onyl reaosn my tHF has not gone TWF logn ago is i need a +5 dex tome first...... I'm really lookign forward to the changes i;ve heard so far as they just might just might make him at least CLOSE to TWF dps, at least fro red names, i'm ok if they wound trash better thats all cool i;d liek to out hurt them DPS fights though, that would be an excelent balace in the end...

[Borror0]

In the time that S&B gets a bonus of +25.00 damage from Power Attack, THF gets a bonus between 42.70 and +47.19 damage and TWF gets a bonus of 46.63 damage. That is at 16 BAB. If you have BAB of 14 or lower, the ratio will be different and you will also gain more out of Power Attack.

A better way to look at it, would be to use S&B as reference 1.

If S&B gains 1.00 from it, THF gains between 1.71 and 1.88 from it. TWF gains 1.86 from Power Attack. At 16 BAB.

[Borror0]

Oh I'll wait for those as well, and I'll give my review and opinion based on the PrE's individuals again. I'm not comparing this PrE to them

But it makes little sense.

You got to look at the whole. If feat A favors more THF and benefits TWF slighty, but then feat B favors TWF back into balance... things are balanced. Perhaps this enhancement is underwhelming to S&B characters. You got to look at the game as a whole. Not simply the PrE in itself, but the whole game and see how it interacts.

[Griphon]

It does not. Within the feat's description it even say, and I quote directly from the Compendium "While using a two-handed weapon, you gain double the bonus to damage." I can admit when I'm wrong. Thanks for correcting me, Borro. Quick question is this a deviation for core DnD, I don't remember it being in there.

Anything that improves DPS will nearly always favor TWF over S&B. The only exceptions I can think of are critical threat ranges - only from a DPS point of view, it favors TWF in other ways though - and faster attacking speed. Depending on the bonus, THF can be also favored over S&B. That is because TWF and THF are, by definition, DPS-centric fighting styles. Sure, you can deal DPS via S&B but it is always going to be lesser.
Understood and agreed with.

If you think there should be something done to prevent that gap from getting too big, core changes are what has to be suggested. Not changing this PrE.
I have already made the suggestion that would keep this gap from widening in my posts, so yes it can be changed by changing the PrE. Or at the very least it keeps the PrE from actively adding to widening the gape.

For the record the suggestion was: Make the base Kensia PrE Enhancement work with only 'main hand' weapons and not 'off hand' weapons.




It also makes of it a lousy PrE line. I do not think that limiting it to the main hand makes it a lousy PrE. (Or I wouldn't have suggested it.) Nor do I think giving a 'freebie' to a fighting style makes the PrE lousy.. I do, however, think it's unfair and shouldn't be put into game as is.

They couldn't work. The benefits are separated between Two-Handed and One-Handed weapons.

Plus, it makes no sense at all that you can hit harder with a shield in your hands...
With it being seperated into Two-handed and One-Handed there is no reason why it couldn't be broken down into 'Main Hand' and 'off hand'. And I do agree that it doesn't really make sense to hit harder with a shield in your hand. And as I've said I'd rather it be the same benefit to all.


Like Power Attack gives different fighting styles different benefits, there is nothnig wrong with a PrE doing the same. As I said I've forgotten that aspect of Power Attack. So I could consider retracting my complaint about the extra +'s envolved, because there is a precedent for it. I, however, still do not agree with the extra chance of 'Speical effect triggers' being added as a 'freebie' to the PrE.

They can remove it from the PrE and add it as an Enhancement line to the actual Feat itself and I'd be totally fine with it. (Like Toughness.)

I have no problem with them trying to make THF better. I just don't think it belongs inside this PrE as a 'freebie' to one fighting style.


All that matters, in the end, would be the overall strength of the builds. Who cares if this or that fighting style gets more out of whatever enhancement.

The funny thing about 'build strengths'... Most of the builds include a certain fighting style.. Tempest build/PrE is automatically going for a 2WF style. Your barbarians builds either go THW or TWF. So.. When you talk builds you are also talking about fighting style.

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[Desteria]

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I can admit when I'm wrong. Thanks for correcting me, Borro. Quick question is this a deviation for core DnD, I don't remember it being in there.

AS I've posted a few times that is a CORE D&D 3.5 mechanic....