Fighter Kensai Preview

[SteeleTrueheart]

Solutions:
1) Manditory! Remove the extra +'s when using a Two Handed weapon. Make it a flat value for all weapon types.

Already Dev stated this PrC would be the favourite of THF specialists. Wait to see the other PrC's before claiming this is too powerful for 1 type of attacker

Pick one of the following:

2) Totally remove the 'additional chance to add Special effects' to Glancing Blow damage from 2 Handed weapons. Besides there are already two feats that allow something simliar to this: Cleave and Improved Cleave. (Power Cleave? Whats the second Cleave's name?!)

3) Allow 1 handed weapon wielding Kensia to make 'Glancing Blows' as well and keep the 'chance to add Special Effects' damage. A Feat should probably be required for this. This increases the S/B DPS while costing a feat (something most S/B fighters would gladly give to gain.)

You can not give 1 handers glancing blows. Using a 1 hand weapon is the only way you can 'turn off' glancing blows. The ability to turn off glancing blows is essential in some quests.

Notes in red

[Griphon]

ACK THF NEEDS HELP bady.... As compared to what? Two weapon fighting Tempest Dwarves wielding Dwarven Axes? Two Weapon Fighting Elf Tempests using w W/P rapiers? As has been mentioned it looks like Tempest might be changed slightly, so its not going to do any good to compare those.
Lets keep it to a Pure Fighter-talk for reference.. A 2Handed Fighter vs a S&B (or Single weapon) fighter? The 2Hander will put out more DPS as it is, but have less to about 9AC points less. With the fact that AC is currently 'broke' and that unless you have ultimate HIGH AC it doesn't matter much.. then 2Handers are just as good or better than S&B fighters....

2H vs 2W? Same AC.. 2H = Higher DPS per Swing... 2W = more swings... 2Handers have the DSP win. 2W have the win when using stat kill or instant kills

the one handed weaposn alreayd get the bonus twice they will be TWF's takign kensi .... You can not assume that anybody who takes this PrE and uses one handed weapons are going to be 2Weap fighters. The intention is to 'master' one weapon type/style and increase damage and skill with that weapon. Still no reason to pad the 2handers for same cost of a one handed weapon user.

Personaly i'd liek to see buy the tiem kensi hit tier 2 the effects on glancing blows be 100% not just an increrased chance. I'm guessing it'll be max of 50%.

If you reduce the effect it ha on THF frankly it will not be worth the cost it;s just barly maby worht it now, and imo still does not compare to ranger or barb current enchments, might just be on parwith current pally spell/AP's but not what you add pally PRC's on top of that though HOW a palyl will ever aford a PRC on top of the other AP's needed to try and get on par is beyond me. I did say make it even across the board on Weapon style and Type. They could increase or decrease the damage either way as long as it evened it out on a cost basis. I'll edit my orginal post and throw in the option of lowering the cost for the 1handers.

If you buff the efect on one heand users they you over power TWFer even more.Not if they stay the same and raise the one hander benefits up to the 2hander ones. I also think you're seeing panic of TWFers that are going to dip into Fighter....I doubt that'll be the case with the Tempest line specifically for them. Even if they do 'dip' into fighter for this PrE I doubt the two types will be that beneficial since they're changing Tempest as it is.


As to S&B this is NOT the PRC targeting S&B people, that will be the D-defender I'm sure and possible the other one as well, but you can still take kensi as a S7B fro a little more damage, but frankly if you are goign S&B for AC *** else would you!!! you will prolly want to go defender for more ac.
And um.. Who said this wasn't 'targetting' S&B? Not all fighters who use S&B are their for the max AC benefit.. (if they were they'd be Tempests in robes.) This class PrE is should be about increasing the effectiveness of Fighters who wish to use a single type of weapon over all others... Be the 1 handed weapons, Two Handed Weapons.. Or Two Weapon Fighters..
I've yet to see the Defender Class, but a bit of speculation: It'll increase AC. Duh.. And be great for those who've elected to go S&B who want the AC from it.

Replies in RED.

[Borror0]

Summary: Balance the Kensai PrE so that it's giving the same benefits to all Kensia no matter what.

The problem is that currently, two-handed fighters are pretty lame compared to two-weapon fighters. Making of these benefits flat bonuses benefit two-weapon fighters more than two-handed fighters. That is mostly likely why Eladrin has decided to make it this way and it's not a bad idea at all.

Personally, I would take the glancing blow part off and make it universal to all characters wielding a two-handed weapons. Maybe moving the bonuses from Kensai to some of the two-handed fighting feats could be a way to do it. But, no matter how Eladrin manages the glancing blow part, Kensai would favor two-weapon fighters over two-handed fighters unless Eladrin varies the numbers from one fighting style to the other.

[Griphon]

Already Dev stated this PrC would be the favourite of THF specialists. Wait to see the other PrC's before claiming this is too powerful for 1 type of attacker Why should a PrE that isn't SPECIFICALLY 2Handed fighters have more benefits for them at the same cost compared to somebody who wants to specialize in a single weapon that is a one hander? Simple Answer: It shouldn't!

You can't assume everybody using a Sword and Board concept is out for MAX AC. (As we all know if they were, they'd be using a Tempest Ranger in Robes and AC bracers.) The fighter class as a whole has too many variations to be able to claim that nobody wants to have a 'decent' AC, but specialize in one type of weapon.

From my understanding, this isn't the 'Fighter 2Hander' PrE, but the 'Fighter Weapon Specialist' PrE. As such it should benefit all fighters the same, no matter the fighter's style.


You can not give 1 handers glancing blows. Using a 1 hand weapon is the only way you can 'turn off' glancing blows. The ability to turn off glancing blows is essential in some quests.
I admit this is a good point. Giving them glancing blows would indeed screw up 'Sleep Dust' type quests. It could be possible to make it a Stance for the single handed types. But then it'd be a choice of.. Do I use 'Power attack' for max damage to the main target or do I use 'Kensia Glancing blow' for max damage to all the mobs around me? ... I actually like that idea.

Replies in Red.

[Borror0]

As compared to what? Two weapon fighting Tempest Dwarves wielding Dwarven Axes? Two Weapon Fighting Elf Tempests using w W/P rapiers?

To any Str-based two-weapon fighting character and that is strictly from a DPS standpoint.

For as long as monk splash is un-nerfed, they will also have crazily high AC. However, let's consider that as something they will address.

Who said this wasn't 'targetting' S&B? Not all fighters who use S&B are their for the max AC benefit..

Heh, well it is their decision to play a sub-par build.

That kind of build is beyond salvation. Any attempt at making them better is a waste of time.

[Griphon]

The problem is that currently, two-handed fighters are pretty lame compared to two-weapon fighters. Making of these benefits flat bonuses benefit two-weapon fighters more than two-handed fighters. That is mostly likely why Eladrin has decided to make it this way and it's not a bad idea at all. Yes. It would benefit the TWFers. (No I'm not one!) It's not a bad idea? But is fair to have a PrE that costs the same to everybody to have an inherit benefit to just one style? Perhaps they should broaded the Kensia class into the 3 types.. Two Weapon Kensia, 2 Hander Kensia and S&B Kensia. (I've edited my orginal post to include these options.)

Personally, I would take the glancing blow part off and make it universal to all characters wielding a two-handed weapons. Maybe moving the bonuses from Kensai to some of the two-handed fighting feats could be a way to do it. But, no matter how Eladrin manages the glancing blow part, Kensai would favor two-weapon fighters over two-handed fighters unless Eladrin varies the numbers from one fighting style to the other.

Replies in Red

[Desteria]

Replies in RED.
As compared to what? Two weapon fighting Tempest Dwarves wielding Dwarven Axes? Two Weapon Fighting Elf Tempests using w W/P rapiers? As has been mentioned it looks like Tempest might be changed slightly, so its not going to do any good to compare those.

when a 8 startign str tempest monk with KAMAS out DPSs a max STR dwarf Fighter with THF feats and a great axe, and buy a decent margin some thing is seriusly wrong that is the current state of THF, and thats JUST DPS on trash mobs that are better killed but vorp or wounding TWF is almost twice as effective...

[Griphon]

To any Str-based two-weapon fighting character and that is strictly from a DPS standpoint.

For as long as monk splash is un-nerfed, they will also have crazily high AC. However, let's consider that as something they will address.

Heh, well it is their decision to play a sub-par build.

That kind of build is beyond salvation. Any attempt at making them better is a waste of time.

Do you always think that Dev's should program and craft the game with the Non-typical Power Gamer in mind? You know thats never going to be possible. Gamers will always find a loophole or way to get around to doing something slightly better than the average Joe.

The concept of a Sub-Par build that is beyond salvation because they use a single weapon and shield is just plan crazy-talk, since that seems to be the 'Average Joe' build who isn't a power gamer. Seems most profitable to the game to design towards the 'Average Joe' and less toward Power Gamers. If you drive the Average Joes away because they're aren't enjoying the game... I don't believe the Power Gamer's subscriptions will be enough to keep the game afloat..

[arcsonist]

Where is my Katana?

[Borror0]

From my understanding, this isn't the 'Fighter 2Hander' PrE, but the 'Fighter Weapon Specialist' PrE. As such it should benefit all fighters the same, no matter the fighter's style.

Two-weapon fighting character benefit more from:

• +2 bonus to damage and to-hit
• +3 bonus to Combat Feat DC's
• +4 to confirm criticals and critical damage
• Power Surge
• +1 critical threat range

Eladrin's modification just bring a bit more fairness to the PrE between THF and TWF.

[Desteria]

Replies in RED.
2H vs 2W? Same AC.. 2H = Higher DPS per Swing... 2W = more swings... 2Handers have the DSP win. 2W have the win when using stat kill or instant kills

Your joiking RIGHT.....

TWF DESTROYES THF on a fighter to fighter basis

ok lets look at it

PA: THF gets 10 per hit but TWF gets 5 per HAND 2 hits at once so thats ruffly the same.

STR: THF gets 1.5 str, THF gets 1.0 and 0.5 STR so thats ruffly = again

BARD song: THF gets it once, TWF gets it twice BIG win TWF

Weapon Spec/gtr weapon spec: THF gets 4 per hit, TWF gets 4 PER HAND so twice as much.

HOLY/Acid/force etc THF gets them once per attack, TWF getign them TWICE once per hand...

seeing a pattern here?

Sneat attack goggles etc same as above...


TWF DPS DESTROYS THF DPS fro any class that choses it, and is way better for stat/vorpal type efects....

Ultimatly balace should show them THF/TWF beign faily close in terms of DPS with THF edjing out TWF for non rangers, (Favored enimy would be the tippign toward TWF for them), but TWF winning in the none DPS effects catigories that woudl balance thouse 2 fightign styles, S&B i don;t know but they should have the best AC, with less damage etc.

[Desteria]

Replies in RED.And um.. Who said this wasn't 'targetting' S&B? Not all fighters who use S&B are their for the max AC benefit.. (if they were they'd be Tempests in robes.) This class PrE is should be about increasing the effectiveness of Fighters who wish to use a single type of weapon over all others... Be the 1 handed weapons, Two Handed Weapons.. Or Two Weapon Fighters..
I've yet to see the Defender Class, but a bit of speculation: It'll increase AC. Duh.. And be great for those who've elected to go S&B who want the AC from it.

Why do you use a sheild for any other reason then for AC, as a fighter, if your not goign for ac you pick up a 2hander.

[Griphon]

when a 8 startign str tempest monk with KAMAS out DPSs a max STR dwarf Fighter with THF feats and a great axe, and buy a decent margin some thing is seriusly wrong that is the current state of THF, and thats JUST DPS on trash mobs that are better killed but vorp or wounding TWF is almost twice as effective...

I should say I agree that 2H'ed Fighting is less effective than it should be with the whole glancing blow bit.

As to your specific examples DPS , I'd like to see some actual reference. Some statistical work? (Anybody actually have a reference to this on a post somewhere? I'm not a statistician.)

2WF with Stat damage and Vorpals is a no brainer.. more hits per second = more chances to vorpal. More hits per second = more stat damage. That is a flaw in the system that isn't exactly fixable. Nor should it be even attempted.

[Borror0]

The concept of a Sub-Par build that is beyond salvation because they use a single weapon and shield is just plan crazy-talk, since that seems to be the 'Average Joe' build who isn't a power gamer. Seems most profitable to the game to design towards the 'Average Joe' and less toward Power Gamers. If you drive the Average Joes away because they're aren't enjoying the game... I don't believe the Power Gamer's subscriptions will be enough to keep the game afloat..

That is NOT what I meant.

That is not a "that kind of build sucks, don't make it better" kind of comment. It is a rather, the concept of that kind of build is flawed given the very nature of the game. Any attempt improve that kind of build is a waste of time. The way game works, you got to kill faster if you are taking more damage. Thing is, if you want mid-AC and good DPS, you should have gone two-weapon fighting. Not S&B.

[Desteria]

The problem is that currently, two-handed fighters are pretty lame compared to two-weapon fighters. Making of these benefits flat bonuses benefit two-weapon fighters more than two-handed fighters. That is mostly likely why Eladrin has decided to make it this way and it's not a bad idea at all.

Personally, I would take the glancing blow part off and make it universal to all characters wielding a two-handed weapons. Maybe moving the bonuses from Kensai to some of the two-handed fighting feats could be a way to do it. But, no matter how Eladrin manages the glancing blow part, Kensai would favor two-weapon fighters over two-handed fighters unless Eladrin varies the numbers from one fighting style to the other.

EXACLY!!!!!!!

I love th idea of moving the glacign blow effetc to the feats... or maby partly to the feats so if you have the feats and the prc you get up to 100% of the time....

[Desteria]

To any Str-based two-weapon fighting character and that is strictly from a DPS standpoint.

For as long as monk splash is un-nerfed, they will also have crazily high AC. However, let's consider that as something they will address.

Any TWF build even they can be mostly dex based and still destroy STR based THF sad but true.

Heh, well it is their decision to play a sub-par build.

That kind of build is beyond salvation. Any attempt at making them better is a waste of time.

hehe true so true

[Desteria]

Replies in Red
Yes. It would benefit the TWFers. (No I'm not one!) It's not a bad idea? But is fair to have a PrE that costs the same to everybody to have an inherit benefit to just one style? Perhaps they should broaded the Kensia class into the 3 types.. Two Weapon Kensia, 2 Hander Kensia and S&B Kensia. (I've edited my orginal post to include these options.)

Well as it stands a TWF and a THF get the SAME benifit for the same cost the THF attacks half as much adn gets twice the bonus Perfectly balanced for teh 2 DPS firghting styles for fighters, kensi is a DPS prc or at least the the focus in PnP they took it from... so why should it give the same benifit to a defensive build a defensive build expects less dps, if they take a DPS prc then thats just odd...

[Desteria]

I should say I agree that 2H'ed Fighting is less effective than it should be with the whole glancing blow bit.

As to your specific examples DPS , I'd like to see some actual reference. Some statistical work? (Anybody actually have a reference to this on a post somewhere? I'm not a statistician.)

2WF with Stat damage and Vorpals is a no brainer.. more hits per second = more chances to vorpal. More hits per second = more stat damage. That is a flaw in the system that isn't exactly fixable. Nor should it be even attempted.

I don't have the stats on me but i HAVE figured them out quite a few tiems comparing my monk to my thf fighter, and hte monk destroyed him, I did it quite a few times becuase i had not expecte dthe monk to win i was hopeign he was CLOSE and was blown away when he was ahead.

[Borror0]

Desteria, ever heard of multiquote? :P

[Tanka]

Desteria, ever heard of multiquote? :P

What's that?

Desteria, ever heard of multiquote? :P

Huh?

Desteria, ever heard of multiquote? :P

Eh?

Desteria, ever heard of multiquote? :P

You speaking English here?