Fighter Kensai Preview

[maddmatt70]

OH just wait they will give fighters +2 to their crit range at level 20 fighter.. My pure fighter Norg will be the bomb, but all of you 2 monk or 2 paladin or 2 rogue or 2 rogue and 2 paladin splash people will be out of luck. Don't you just love this game?

[Griphon]

OH just wait they will give fighters +2 to their crit range at level 20 fighter.. My pure fighter Norg will be the bomb, but all of you 2 monk or 2 paladin or 2 rogue or 2 rogue and 2 paladin splash people will be out of luck. Don't you just love this game?

Yes.

Appearently 'Maddmatt' is aptly named... He's quite Mad.

[Borror0]

OH just wait they will give fighters +2 to their crit range at level 20 fighter.. My pure fighter Norg will be the bomb, but all of you 2 monk or 2 paladin or 2 rogue or 2 rogue and 2 paladin splash people will be out of luck. Don't you just love this game?

I remember that once a guy told me that if S&B went out of fashion, to suck it up and that I shouldn't complain that a build for a few modules back is less powerful now. Things change and we just have to get used to it, is what he said. Oh, wait, that was you! Funny how things are sometimes, eh?

[Monkey_Archer]

OH just wait they will give fighters +2 to their crit range at level 20 fighter.. My pure fighter Norg will be the bomb, but all of you 2 monk or 2 paladin or 2 rogue or 2 rogue and 2 paladin splash people will be out of luck. Don't you just love this game?

All this talk of multiclassing and kensai being weak compared to other non-PrE classes... i sure hope they dont forget that 2-handed fighters (even with the changes) are still gonna do about 60-70% of their equivalent TWF...

And i really hope a level 20 capstone is not the only way to justify kensai 3
So much for monk being a desireable multiclass...

Edit:I think some1 already posted something about not overpowering/underpowering capstones (as to make it worth it but not totally gimp a multiclass)... Especially not to fix a weak PrE..

[Monkey_Archer]

Oh... and running numbers on a specific build with specific weapons vs some other is exactly that... specific...

While that tool is useful for changing a build to make it better, or comparing your build with different weapon choices, it really doesnt stay anything about a class/PrE in general, since most people will build differently (at least i hope they will... d$%^ you crit range)

[Cold_Stele]

We know the Ftr one is Alacrity, not bad.

The entire DDO population should be waiting for the Ranger one after the (pretty awesome) Tempest III.

If it's on par with Pally everyone's going to have to think long and hard about rerolling. If it's on par with Monk you're probably safe with the toon you run right now.

Hmmm, unless STWF is available to purchase as a feat in mod 9. Then you might be ok too.

Confused? I am.

[Cold_Stele]

Oh... and running numbers on a specific build with specific weapons vs some other is exactly that... specific...

I don't follow you. If I measured DPS of a 18 base Str Ranger with Dwarf Axes I measure the DPS of half the server, not just one specific build (slight exaggeration of course).

Sure there are going to be minor differences (player x might splash 2 Ftr and have 1 Str more) but the general trend of a given class/PrE is easy to see.

[Monkey_Archer]

I don't follow you. If I measured DPS of a 18 base Str Ranger with Dwarf Axes I measure the DPS of half the server, not just one specific build (slight exaggeration of course).

Sure there are going to be minor differences (player x might splash 2 Ftr and have 1 Str more) but the general trend of a given class/PrE is easy to see.

Am I the only person that thinks every1 building the exact same thing is a problem?? or am i still living in the past...

I honestly dont care if they buff up or gimp kensai... just make weapon choice a choice... not a noob's mistake..

Edit: What?? you actually built that toon yourself??? and made choices??? YOu noob!! someone already built the proper fighter class why didnt you download that....

[nbhs275]

We know the Ftr one is Alacrity, not bad.

The entire DDO population should be waiting for the Ranger one after the (pretty awesome) Tempest III.

If it's on par with Pally everyone's going to have to think long and hard about rerolling. If it's on par with Monk you're probably safe with the toon you run right now.

Hmmm, unless STWF is available to purchase as a feat in mod 9. Then you might be ok too.

Confused? I am.

You really mucked up your numbers on the ranger comparison. How the **** do you think rams might is +3 to hit, and +5 damage? Right there is an open example of your complete lack of mathmatical common sense. +2 str, +2 damage. Do you know how you factor that into the DPS chart? by increasing the strength by 2, and add 2 to the base damage. Also, a level 20 rangers FE damage is 14, 12 is the current damage of a level 15-16 ranger.

Also, the extra "9%" attack speed from STWF is completely speculation. Only fair way to include it is to show it both with, and without a speculative number.

And again, back to the entire fighter v. paladin thing, your still making arguements supporting the current kensia, without addressing the fact that it costs 3/4s of all the action points the build has, and still leaves the fighter below a paladin who has spent only 6.

[Aesop]

You really mucked up your numbers on the ranger comparison. How the **** do you think rams might is +3 to hit, and +5 damage? Right there is an open example of your complete lack of mathmatical common sense. +2 str, +2 damage. Do you know how you factor that into the DPS chart? by increasing the strength by 2, and add 2 to the base damage. Also, a level 20 rangers FE damage is 14, 12 is the current damage of a level 15-16 ranger.

Just so you know Ram's MIght is not working as written right now. It has an increasing Damage Bonus. I think its actually +2 Str and +4 Damage (not including Str bonus) right now ... but someone else probably has the actual numbers out there


Aesop

[maddmatt70]

I remember that once a guy told me that if S&B went out of fashion, to suck it up and that I shouldn't complain that a build for a few modules back is less powerful now. Things change and we just have to get used to it, is what he said. Oh, wait, that was you! Funny how things are sometimes, eh?

I have always maintained that S&B in Dungeons & Dragons Pen and Paper at high levels is out of fashion and weaker then any other combat type so I don't think ddo is that far off although it is somewhat magnified with the different calculation of the attack sequence.

Edit: I do have a level 16 dwarven defender/fighter from an old 3.5 campaign, so I can speak from personal experience on this matter.

[Borror0]

I have always maintained that S&B in Dungeons & Dragons Pen and Paper at high levels is out of fashion and weaker then any other combat type so I don't think ddo is that far off although it is somewhat magnified with the different calculation of the attack sequence.

That's not the point. Having a character going useless is the same as having a character go useless.

[maddmatt70]

That's not the point. Having a character going useless is the same as having a character go useless.

That is your perspective; however, one of the easiest thing in ddo to respec is combat styles. You can switch to a two-handed fighting style easily by swapping feats around and be a two handed melee character. Unfortunately you can't respecc your character's levels and will be stuck with the two paladin splash if level 20 fighter is the bomb.

[maddmatt70]

I am trying to guess what is the equivalent of 4d6 damage on the next two likely raid bosses (evil outsider and dracolitch) and on 60-75% of the mobs in those mods. This averages out to 14 damage so is that = +1 crit range? Since the fighters are already behind paladins dps wise by an average per ddo round of perhaps another 14 damage I think +2 to crit range would actually balance the two classes.. A level 20 ability giving +2 to crit range is totally silly, but it would at least balance pure fighters with pure paladins.. lol..

[Borror0]

You can switch to a two-handed fighting style easily by swapping feats around and be a two handed melee character.

True, but I cannot respec to TWF. TWF is the bomb, not THF.

[maddmatt70]

True, but I cannot respec to TWF. TWF is the bomb, not THF.

Well according to the devs they are upping glancing blow special effect attacks in the next mod and there undoubtedly will be some changes to the current attack motion/sequence; i.e., the developers are working on balancing twf and thf. I have a q-staff rogue I am leveling up and I figure I also have option of swapping my fighter or paladin to thf if I want to (just not really my ranger).

[Cold_Stele]

So here's Kensai III vs Tempest III vs Frenzied Berserker III

Assumptions -

Human, just because it was easier for me to edit some previous tables.

All use Khopesh except Barb, who uses Heavy Pick.

FE Damage is +14 and Ram's Might adds a further +5 damage at lvl 20(?) in addition to +2 Str.

STWF turns a 10 attack chain into a 11, so is worth an extra 10% swings per minute on top the 10% from Tempest I.

wiki link

Each Kensai Power Surges are 1 minute in length so can be included in DPS calculations.

Barb Greater Rage (or whatever it's called) adds a total of +12 Str +4 for FB III Frenzy. I've NOT done calculations for stacking FB I and FB III - that's *a lot* of incoming damage for a 10 attacks/chain toon.

Extra damage from Barb PA III is added/subtracted from the base to hit/damage.

Extra to hit from Ftr Kensai, Sup Wpn Focus and Ftr Wpn Spec enhancement is added in the base to hit and damage.

All get another +2 Str from Madstone Boots or Rage pots.

To hit includes buffs from GH and Haste, but not Bard buffs.

Kensai vs Tempest

Kensai vs FB

Tempest vs FB

No surprise who came 3rd, but can you guess who comes in first?

Still, it's not all bad for Kensai, they have one redeeming factor. If there's any mobs in mod 9 around the 50AC mark, that's where they're gonna shine.

Tempest edited - thanks to nbhs for his kind words of support.

MADDMATT - what do you want added for Bard buffs bud?

[maddmatt70]

No surprise who came 3rd, but can you guess who comes in first? I bet you guess wrong

Still , it's not all bad for Kensai, they have one redeeming factor. If there's any mobs in mod 9 around the 50AC mark, that's where they're gonna shine.

Calculate Tempest with warchanter buffs and power attack vs. the Frenzied Berserker with the same. On raids its entirely reasonable to run 60% of raids with a full damaged specced warchanter.

[Cold_Stele]

You really mucked up your numbers on the ranger comparison. How the **** do you think rams might is +3 to hit, and +5 damage? Right there is an open example of your complete lack of mathmatical common sense. +2 str, +2 damage.

And that, my friend, is you once more shooting off your big mouth and making a complete ass of yourself again.

Haven't you finished embarrassing yourself yet?

Get over yourself kid. You made made a statement that was wrong before, that's all. No one died. No one got hurt. No one cares but you. If you're upset, go cry to mamma, stop throwing **** at me in your childish frustration.

BUT back to Tempest. LIKE I SAID errors are going to be there.

So right now it's +1 hit/+5 damage not the +3/+5 I thought? But that'll be +1/+6 at lvl 20 right?

I'll edit that in there now, with the +14 damage from FE.

*EDIT DONE*

[Cold_Stele]

Also, the extra "9%" attack speed from STWF is completely speculation. Only fair way to include it is to show it both with, and without a speculative number.

And again, back to the entire fighter v. paladin thing, your still making arguements supporting the current kensia, without addressing the fact that it costs 3/4s of all the action points the build has, and still leaves the fighter below a paladin who has spent only 6.

/meh I know it's bad of me to toy with the little fella but no one can say I wasn't provoked right?

OK first off - listing in my 'assumptions' that STWF would add a 11th attack in a 10 attack chain, so swing rate would go to 110/100 to reflect this.

The additional attacks gained at tier III are identical to what we originally had planned for (the not-in-the-game) Superior Two Weapon Fighting.

So here's the wiki link showing the old STWF feat as it was proposed. 11 attacks per chain.

OK, AP cost. Yes it's expensive. Well done. So is Tempest in feats but EVERY non-gimp Ranger takes it. Ftrs currently spend 24 AP on Armor/Tower Shield Mastery for a 3 measly AC. They're no strangers to overpriced enhancements.

Oh, and as for 'making arguments supporting Kensai' I believe my words were 'it's not all bad for Kensai, they have one redeeming feature'. From your obviously troubled past, you may think these are words of support, but honestly they're not. They're really more words of sympathy, something I'm surprised you didn't notice. Oh btw, just one 'e' in argument. I know you keep saying I'm a moron and all, but at least I can spell, eh?

Lastly though, if I sound pro-Ftr............ it's cos I am! I admit it! I even post in a Ftr forum! How crazy is that???