Fighter Kensai Preview

[EinarMal]

Human Khopesh Kensai vs Human Khopesh Pally

NB Pally goes to 32 Str, Kensai to 36.

Power Surge + Madstone

Power Surge only

No Power Surge or Madstone

Edit - re. your stats - nope. Con 9 is ridiculous for a next to 0 AC TWF toon. I'll give you STR 17, Dex 15, Con 13. Int 8, Wis 8, Cha 14 though.

These numbers now include GH + Haste. So now Pally PA TWF starts to drop off at AC36 instead.

**Editing finished**

You totally screwed those up, the pally has a khopesh right and so does the fighter why are the multipliers different?

[Cold_Stele]

/meh you think this is easy?

Hopefully the final revision -

Power Surge + Madstone

Power Surge only

No Power Surge or Madstone

[EinarMal]

/meh you think this is easy?

Hopefully the final revision -

Power Surge + Madstone

Power Surge only

No Power Surge or Madstone

Haha see check out those last set of numbers 140/132 = 6% and you didn't add in my DM3 either....

Congratulations EinarMal you just won the internet what are you going to do? I am heading to Korthos to roll my 9 con human pally

[Monkey_Archer]

Haha see check out those last set of numbers 140/132 = 6% and you didn't add in my DM3 either....

Congratulations EinarMal you just won the internet what are you going to do? I am heading to Korthos to roll my 9 con human pally

Which, if you go back to my post... and remove the kensai bonuses (to compare base classes)
Fighter beats unboosted pali, long-term boosted pali beats fighter and short-term boosted fighter beats boosted pali... not counting smites...

I think its easy to underestimate how much extra dps you can get with just +3 to hit +3 damage against high ac targets....
Now.. if we expect to see lots of 40-60 ac targets i think kensai might do fairly well the way it is vs paladins and rangers...
Somehow i dont see this happening though....

I do think kensai needs something though.... Specifically something that makes weapon choices equal....
Something small but effective...
like extending attack/damage/seeker to tier 3 (or doubleing teir1&2)
and either changing from crit range to crit multiplier (or making power surge a crit multiplier boost)

I would think extending bonuses to teir 3 and powersurge crit multiplier would be best... (and be closest in line with the theory/philosophy of kensai)

Powersurge is not the defining ability of this current kensai.... crit range is...

[EinarMal]

I would think extending bonuses to teir 3 and powersurge crit multiplier would be best... (and be closest in line with the theory/philosophy of kensai)

Powersurge is not the defining ability of this current kensai.... crit range is...

I would prefer a buff to tier 1 or 2 personally, as that gives help for more of the game. I don't like the idea of being considerably behind from level 6-18 and then all of the sudden you jump ahead. That just seems like bad spacing of benefits to me.

[nbhs275]

Human Khopesh Kensai vs Human Khopesh Pally

NB Pally goes to 32 Str, Kensai to 36.

Power Surge + Madstone

Power Surge only

No Power Surge or Madstone

Edit - re. your stats - nope. Con 9 is ridiculous for a next to 0 AC TWF toon. I'll give you STR 17, Dex 15, Con 13. Int 8, Wis 8, Cha 14 though.

These numbers now include GH + Haste. So now Pally PA TWF starts to drop off at AC36 instead.

**Editing finished**

Next to 0 AC toon? You are a moron, arent you. Do you not get that a paladin has a HIGHER potential AC then a fighter. Currently, the paladin not only gets +5 from his aura, but can also get the 2 of 3 dex threshhold of the fighter, with an item. So the paladin in DT FP has 10 base, 15 armor, 3 dex, and 5 aura. 33. Fighter is 29. Who wins? All the other items can easily be gained by either class.


Or lets look at stats. Your making this huge cry over the paladin needing cha. Well hate to tell ya, but your fighter is in much more ****, as he needs to invest both stat points, items, and feats into his wisdom, or else he cant stand long enough to hit a kobold.

But never mind your short sighted tendencies. Lets compare completly even, human paladin vs human fighter.

Strength

Fighter
18 base
+5 lvl
+6 item
+2 tome
+3 enhancments
______________
34

Paladin
18 base
+5 lvl
+6 item
+2 tome
+1 enhancments
______________
32

Extra damage

Fighter
4 WS +2 Kensia +2 enhn +5 wpn +5 pa= 18 , seeker +10

Paladin
3 DF +6 DM +5 wpn +5 pa=19 , seeker +6


OVERALL DAMAGE

Fighter

Main : 1d10+30, 35.5 avg. 136.5 avg crit, 58.975 overall average.

Offhand : 1d10+24, 29.5 avg. 118.5 avg crit, 50.275 overall average.

Complete average : 54.625

Paladin

Main : 1d10+30, 35.5 avg. 124.5 avg crit, 51.525 overall average.

Offhand : 1d10+24, 29.5 avg. 106.5 avg crit, 43.425 overall average

Complete average : 47.475

Now don't forget the paladin attacks 10% faster, which brings it to a comparable 52.2225.

So again, after spending 50+ AP, the fighter is now less then a 5% advantage. Such a small margin, that the extra 2d6 a level 20 paladin would get against any non-good enemie shifts it to a 5% advantage in the paladins favor.

Face it, under the best of situations, the fighter is nearly even with the paladin, who hasnt made any action point investment. Which means any 3 of the paladin PRC bring it head and shoulders past the fighter. The defender gets additional str, AC boosts, epic DR, and other treats. The knight of the chalice gets a whooping amount of extra damage against evil outsiders(all counted, 8d6, which is 24 damage on average, vast amounts better then the +2 damage from kensia), and the undead hunter gets a strong additional disruption effect and a large amount of light damage on 20s against undead.

[nbhs275]

I would prefer a buff to tier 1 or 2 personally, as that gives help for more of the game. I don't like the idea of being considerably behind from level 6-18 and then all of the sudden you jump ahead. That just seems like bad spacing of benefits to me.

well right now the really sad part is, kensia 3 is pointless, be better DPS to go grab 6 levels of ranger and tempest. +2 str, +2 damage, +6 vs 2 FE, and 10% attack speed. Hell of a lot better then 3 AP for +1 crit range on one weapon.

[Angelus_dead]

Fighter
4 WS +2 Kensia +2 enhn +5 wpn +5 pa= 18 , seeker +10

Paladin
3 DF +6 DM +5 wpn +5 pa=19 , seeker +6

You don't have bard song and you don't have sneak attack goggles.

Both of those are damage factors which benefit a paladin about 10% more than they do a fighter, so your result is inaccurately biased against paladins.

Hell of a lot better then 3 AP for +1 crit range on one weapon.

Unless Puncturing continues to be uber. If Puncturing is important, then Kensai3 is valuable.

[nbhs275]

You don't have bard song and you don't have sneak attack goggles.

Both of those are damage factors which benefit a paladin about 10% more than they do a fighter, so your result is inaccurately biased against paladins.


Unless Puncturing continues to be uber. If Puncturing is important, then Kensai3 is valuable.

10% attack speed is an extra 10% con damage from wounding, and 10% from puncturing. +1 crit range isnt nearly as valuable.

[Cold_Stele]

Next to 0 AC toon? You are a moron, arent you. Do you not get that a paladin has a HIGHER potential AC then a fighter. Currently, the paladin not only gets +5 from his aura, but can also get the 2 of 3 dex threshhold of the fighter, with an item.

Yeh, stopped reading after that tbh. That sums up better than I ever could who the moron is.

Let's put your quote in context, hmmm?

That was in relation to the RIDICULOUS claim that the hypothetical DM3, GTWF Drow Pally we were discussing had 18 str. So he would have 18 Str, 15 Dex, 16 Cha, 8 Wis
...AND A CONSTITUTION OF SEVEN (which you SOMEHOW seem to have accidentally not acknowledged, silly you).

So I pointed out to you that this 7 CON, TWF toon has next to 0 AC for protection. And now you want to rely on Daggertooth's Belt for his Con item too? Let's dress him in pyjamas and rely on his 8 Wis and a Monk splash for his AC too whilst we're at it, eh?


Why not face facts? You came in the middle of (and I'm the first to admit it) a pretty pointless discussion, shot you're mouth off without knowing the circumstances and made yourself look like a fool.

Instead of bowing out, or God forbid, even apologizing for your mistake, you then compile it all with dishonesty (or stupidity) by coming up with these erroneous numbers -

And if that isnt making much sense to you, lets see if a nice pretty picture helps you

Even in the new numbers you've done above (now the damage tool YOU introduced just isn't working in your favor?) you ONCE AGAIN 'forget' Kensai's defining ability, Power Surge, as well as one of the Pally's weaknesses, their inability to effectively Madstone Rage.

What you should get, in fact, are these numbers -

http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p...&postcount=558

You'll see that a problem Pally has (and this will continue into mod 9) is that with relatively few bonuses to hit (these don't include GH, Haste or Bard buffs though) they can't maintain consistent DPS with PA on against higher AC mobs. The Human vs Human version (Pally 17 Str, Dex 15, Con 13, Cha 14) is here. These numbers do include GH and Haste.

But I'll reiterate - the discussion YOU GOT YOURSELF INVOLVED IN (and are still ever so desperately trying to defend to put the lead back in your e-peen) is that mod 8 Pally does more DPS than mod 9 Kensai.

/Fail.

Now seeing as this thread's too important to get locked (and you maybe don't want to make a spectacle of yourself anymore in public) why not continue this with PMs?

I don't doubt for one second you're going to find something else to say...

[Monkey_Archer]

Oh man... this is still going????

PALADINS CAN BOOST FOR HIGHER LONG-TERM DPS POTENTIAL THEN A FIGHTER!!!!
but buffs can be dispeled...

The problem with fighter and paladin dps is because people keep arguing whether the fighter or paladin has too much dps then the other... while rangers and barbs continue to dominate both...

[Monkey_Archer]

well right now the really sad part is, kensia 3 is pointless, be better DPS to go grab 6 levels of ranger and tempest. +2 str, +2 damage, +6 vs 2 FE, and 10% attack speed. Hell of a lot better then 3 AP for +1 crit range on one weapon.

Not to mention extra ac, wand usage, and better saves....
I also posted earlier that 6 pali levels would be better dps as well..
as would 6 barb for frenzied berzerker 1...

Nothing against the multi class options, but i think tier 3 of any prestige should be more powerfull then tier 1 of any other prestige.
Why should someone who gives up the higher saves and other benefits of multiclassing to stay pure be rewarded with a weak tier 3... (that only really benefits stat damaging and high crit weapons)


Kensai 3 really should have some type of crit multiplier. 3 reasons...

1) Kensai 3 is weak
2) Crit range favors high crit multiplier weapons like axes
3) Crit multiplier favors high crit range weapons like swords

Combine crit range and multiplier and you not only acheive balance, but also make kensai 3 worth taking.

(NOTE: since crit multiplier is more powerful then crit range this is why i suggested its added only during power surge)

10% attack speed is an extra 10% con damage from wounding, and 10% from puncturing. +1 crit range isnt nearly as valuable.

crit range has different value...

with 20 swings (or 22 pali/tempest) with puncturing rapier : kensai gets 7 puncturing crits
pali/tempest gets (22 * 30%) = 6.6 punctuing crits

make it a WOP rapier and pali/tempest is much better though.
also 10% attack speed = 10% more dps...
+1 crit range = 5% of attacks crit = less then 5% more dps even when using a pick/axe/khopesh

EDIT: err... using picks might result im more then %5 more dps... not sure about the numbers there.. x2 crit weapons would be more like 2-3% i think

[Griphon]

Many pages back, I believe I've suggested adding a Crit Multiplier increase of +1 into the PrE at the second stage. I also suggested the elimination of all 'Ki' Bonus and the bonus to the various skills and DC to Tactics feats.... I suggested this because the PrE is too wide spread to be effective at anything.

Yada yada... I could go on, I know. The PrE is weak as it stands, because there isn't enough focus to it. It's trying to do too many things! (Also please don't get hung up on the Kensia name too much.. Cuz.. There is no 'Asia' in Eberron.)

Please take a look at this to fix it. Or at least give us a nod that you're looking at it... Or on the flipside.. Say: It stands as is! Input is all I'm ask'n for at this point.

[Cold_Stele]

Putting the various bonuses from Kensai into the damage calculator gave some interesting results.

This is Human Khopesh Kensai -

Here's what all of the Kensai bonuses give you compared to non-PrE Ftr 20

This is what Seeker +10 gives compared Seeker +6 (Bloodstone)

This is the extra DPS the +1 Crit Range Threat gives you

The last one was a big surprise

This is +1 Crit Multiplier instead of +1 Crit Threat Range for Kensai III

+1 Crit Threat Range is just behind +1 Multiplier. It would seem that it pays for +10 Seeker and Acid Burst to go off even slightly more often.

I'll try to post Kensai vs Tempest & FB later.

[nbhs275]

Putting the various bonuses from Kensai into the damage calculator gave some interesting results.

This is Human Khopesh Kensai -

Here's what all of the Kensai bonuses give you compared to non-PrE Ftr 20

This is what Seeker +10 gives compared Seeker +6 (Bloodstone)

This is the extra DPS the +1 Crit Range Threat gives you

The last one was a big surprise

This is what DPS would be if Kensai III added +1 Crit Multiplier instead of +1 Crit Threat Range

Just 2 points more than +1 Multiplier. It would seem that it pays for +10 Seeker and Acid Burst to go off even slightly more often.

I'll try to post Kensai vs Tempest & FB later.

Give it up man. Your posting skewed numbers, and are the only one who is trying to make baseless points. The fighter kensia, as is is not as strong in DPS terms as a pure paladin before its PRC. Even when you include things like madstone and powersurge, its too little to make a difference.

The 2 str from madstone is far too situational to A) be counted, and be is only 1 extra damage to the main hand, and nothing to the offhand with the fighters 34 base str.

And powersurge cannot be expressed fairly because we know neither the duration, the number of uses, or the extent of them. Even considered as always active, they are yet again, only +4 damage in the main hand, +2 in the offhand. Considering a 20 paladin will now recieve 2d6 damage against any non-evil enemy, the 7 average damage more then covers these two strength sources contributions.

Just face the music, fighter is the weakest of the full BaB classes by far, and kensia makes few strides to redeem it. Only if the damage bonuses where doubled, extended, and a crit multiplier was added, would it even be comparable to a paladin, ranger, rogue, or barbarian with prestige enhancments.

[Griphon]

Putting the various bonuses from Kensai into the damage calculator gave some interesting results.

This is Human Khopesh Kensai -

Here's what all of the Kensai bonuses give you compared to non-PrE Ftr 20

This is what Seeker +10 gives compared Seeker +6 (Bloodstone)

This is the extra DPS the +1 Crit Range Threat gives you

The last one was a big surprise

This is +1 Crit Multiplier instead of +1 Crit Threat Range for Kensai III

+1 Crit Threat Range is just 2 points behind +1 Multiplier. It would seem that it pays for +10 Seeker and Acid Burst to go off even slightly more often.

I'll try to post Kensai vs Tempest & FB later.

Curious.. Why in the second chart does the 'flat value' line go all the way out to ac 50 with Seeker included.. Seeker doesn't add to hit, so it shouldn't extend the baseline before including misses.

*EDIT*

Actually perhaps it's the first chart that is off.. Since it's the only one that didn't make it to 50 to begin with.

*EDIT 2*
Cold Steele...
Here's a request for ya.. Please do a graphic of FB as described, and compare it to a Kensia as described with the addition of +1 crit multiplier. (So kensia bonuses, +1 Crit range, and +1 Crit Multiplier)

I'd do it myself, but no clue how!

Thanks

[Cold_Stele]

Give what up? I'm posting numbers. Infer what you want from them.

BTW - At no point have I made any comments about how good or not Kensai is, nor what it is like compared to other classes or PrE's. I compared mod 8 Pally DPS to Kensai. Nothing more, nothing less.

As whether or not to leave Power Surge and Madstone out of the numbers, I'll refer you to A-D's response.

Sure you can. DPS is normally needed against bosses, and normally only for 2-5 minutes. If an effect works solidly over 2 minutes, it would be inaccurate to leave it out.

We're not 100% sure Power Surge can last that long, but it seems more likely than not.

Power Surges will be 8 uses per rest. If it follows the PrE template so far it'll be 1 minute duration like 'Show Time'. That's purely speculation however.

[Cold_Stele]

Curious.. Why in the second chart does the 'flat value' line go all the way out to ac 50 with Seeker included.. Seeker doesn't add to hit, so it shouldn't extend the baseline before including misses.

*EDIT*

Actually perhaps it's the first chart that is off.. Since it's the only one that didn't make it to 50 to begin with.

The first chart is the only one with PA on. So the red line of the first chart is the one you're looking at as the 'Kensai base line' in the others.

Gimme a few minutes and I'll edit them all to include PA for completeness.

I'll get back to you with the FB stuff later.

**Edit** Done - a little messier but more accurate I guess.

[Tanka]

Power Surges will be 8 uses per rest. If it follows the PrE template so far it'll be 1 minute duration like 'Show Time'. That's purely speculation however.

7, at base. As many as 10.

Do note, some builds (like mine) won't get Kensai 3. This leaves them at 7 Surges.

[Cold_Stele]

OK this is Tempest III vs Kensai III as it's a little easier than FB3.

Assumption - someone in the Tempest thread speculated STWF=another +9% attack speed, so total swings per minute is 119 including Tempest I.

I've taken FE damage as +12.

Ram's Might I've entered as +3 hit/+5 damage.

I'm sure there's going to be inaccuracies with these numbers. PM or post and I'll edit accordingly.

I've also taken Human khopesh, although Dwarf would be most likely. Are you happy with this? Or shall I compare Dwarf to Dwarf? Or Human Kensai to Dwarf (as Khopesh is best Kensai weapon IIRC).

Human Ranger Str is 18+5 levels+3 tome+2 Madstone+1 Enhancement+6 Item = 35

Kensai Strength is 11 higher from Power Surge and Ftrs Str III.

To hits include GH+Haste.

So with no further ado -

Here you go

Like I said, there will be errors. Please be nice.

Summary - no surprises here. Tempest without PA>Kensai with PA.

One redeeming factor of Kensai is the strong to hit. Anything with AC 43+ in mod 9 is going to see Kensai doing increasingly well.

Oh, this is Kensai vs Tempest (no FE) - not that that's gonna happen often of course

If you want Bard buffs in these numbers though let me know. What do you want for the +hit/damage?

FBIII is next - someone remind me what lvl 20 Barb Str will be please (don't include FB). Do you want Human Khopesh Kensai vs Human Pick FB? Accurate THF is out for this calculator I'm afraid.