Fighter Kensai Preview

[Monkey_Archer]

Why am I comparing non-PrE Pally to Kensai?

Because Einer claimed that non-PrE Pally does more DPS than Kensai and I disproved it.

I thought that was done and settled but now nbhs275 is trying to flog this dead horse too.

Please read above about max Str Drow Pally. With DM 3 and GTWF he has a Con of 7.

Ahh...
I see now...

Well the fact that kensai is even being compared to a regular paladin is funny ... no, not really....

All things equal though.. a fighter can out-dps a paladin, who can boost with zeal etc. to out-dps the fighter, who can trigger hasteboost/powersurge to temporarily out dps the boosted pali... at least in theory... without clickies...

More often though paladins like things like ac and hit points

[EinarMal]

Why am I comparing non-PrE Pally to Kensai?

Because Einer claimed that non-PrE Pally does more DPS than Kensai and I disproved it.

I thought that was done and settled but now nbhs275 is trying to flog this dead horse too.

Please read above about max Str Drow Pally. With DM 3 and GTWF (which is what Einer chose for his comparison) he has a Con of 7.

Oh, and I agree that it's a pointless off topic argument too. It should have ended long ago.

You disproved nothing...I said they were within 5% or so and they are. I never said anything about 7 con. If you count power surge you have to count exalted smites/sacrifice and it becomes impossible to calculate it accurately.

The fact that is so close is what I was pointing out anyway before your forum cloak of greater math resistance kicked in.

The fact that a Paladin can now get virtually even with a Fighter when they are both built for DPS is a problem when you consider all the other advantages the Paladin has. The TWF DPS fighter you are touting brings zero to the table outside of DPS.

[Cold_Stele]

Going back one page here's the numbers.

it was nbhs that brought up the Drow Pally that ends up with 7 Con. Your numbers are very reasonable and include DM3. They're presented here.

Oh and TWF DPS Ftr can flip on CE, pull out a tower Shield and function almost as well as a dedicated Intimi-Tank.

Here's a pretty picture for you too.


Hit 'modify' and I'll show you my breakdown.

Extra damage is Holy/Acid for Min II plus 6 for Kensai (2 Wpn Spec Ehn, 2 Kensai, 2 Dorf) and 11 for Pally (3 DF, 6 DM, 2 Drow).

Wpn To Hit is 5 +3 Kensai (1 SWF, 2 Kensai) and +3 for Pally (DF).

Extra crit is Acid Burst

Strength is -

Kensai 18 +5 Levels +2 Tome +3 Enh +6 Item +8 Kensai +2 Madstone = 44
Paladin 16 +5 Levels +2 Tome +6 Item = 29

I'll reiterate - Pally cannot Madstone with impunity as his DPS relies on spell casting.

Target AC range is a much more realistic 30-60.


Looks like you got pwned son.

[EinarMal]

Going back one page here's the numbers.

it was nbhs that brought up the Drow Pally that ends up with 7 Con. Your numbers are very reasonable and include DM3. They're presented here.

You cannot count madstone and power surge IMO that is not going to be consistent DPS. You might as well count all the "extra" DPS the Paladin with zeal will be doing against mobs you want to vorpal. Maybe I can count in some 10,000 hit point Orthons or something so 10,000 hit points I just added in an average of 5%*10,000*1.1=550 vs. 500 for the fighter so I just added in 50 more DPS per swing on average woot.

I hestiate to at this point also count in the pally capstone, only because the fighter one is unknown, but that totally changes the numbers as well against most mobs you are going to be fighting.

There is a pretty clear pattern in this game, complain you are underpowered for a long time, then eventually get made overpowered e.g. Barbarians, Rangers, and now Paladins. They seem to go overboard once they decide to buff a class. Curiously not for fighters though which is strange.

[Griphon]

Curiously not for fighters though which is strange.

There is a term to explain this entirely...

Redheaded Stepchild

(No offense to the Redheaded Stepchildren out there!)

[Cold_Stele]

I count in Kensai Power Surge cos of something this guy said -

Power surge is one of the defining abilities of the kensai.

Madstone's pretty reliable. All you have to do is get hit, especially when you're not wanting it to go off.

At no point in my posts have I compared to Kensai to mod 9 Paladin, that's a completely different ball game. I've solely addressed the issue you brought to the table, that mod 8 Pally can out-DPS Kensai.

And as for Fighters being the red haired step kids of DDO. Two words - Weapon Alacrity.

http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p...7&postcount=61

IIRC there are currently 7 things in the game that offer 'alacrity' - Black Dragon armor, Quiver of Alacrity, Tchurval's Kukri, Jorgundal's Collar, Docent of Quickening, Tempest and of course Zeal. All add 10% attack speed.

You don't have to be a genius to work out where this is going...

[Angelus_dead]

You cannot count madstone and power surge IMO that is not going to be consistent DPS.

Sure you can. DPS is normally needed against bosses, and normally only for 2-5 minutes. If an effect works solidly over 2 minutes, it would be inaccurate to leave it out.

We're not 100% sure Power Surge can last that long, but it seems more likely than not.

[Griphon]

And as for Fighters being the red haired step kids of DDO. Two words - Weapon Alacrity.

IIRC there are currently 8 things in the game that offer 'alacrity' - Black Dragon armor, Quiver of Alacrity, Docent of Quickening, Tchurval's Kukri, Jorgundal's Collar, Docent of Quickening, Tempest and of course Zeal. all add 10% melee attack speed.

You don't have to be a genius to work out where this is going...

That the Fighter 20th cap is probably going to give the same bonus at 2 AP that the level 6 rangers get for 4 AP with Tempest???

Thanks for proving my point!!! (Yes sarcasm.)

Seriously, like I said when I saw the Endcap teaser... I can't really get all that excited about it. Yes. It will help those poor guys who went pure fighter... BUT! It's an ability already at significantly lower levels by another class' PrE.

Again with my redheaded stepchild conclusion.. more hand-me-downs..

[EinarMal]

That the Fighter 20th cap is probably going to give the same bonus at 2 AP that the level 6 rangers get for 4 AP with Tempest???

Thanks for proving my point!!! (Yes sarcasm.)

Seriously, like I said when I saw the Endcap teaser... I can't really get all that excited about it. Yes. It will help those poor guys who went pure fighter... BUT! It's an ability already at significantly lower levels by another class' PrE.

Again with my redheaded stepchild conclusion.. more hand-me-downs..

I agree something at level 20 gee thanks for making me suck for the previous 19 levels or almost the entire game. Paladin's get zeal at level 14, Fighters have to wait until level 18 and Kensai III to equal them against non evil outsiders.

[EinarMal]

Sure you can. DPS is normally needed against bosses, and normally only for 2-5 minutes. If an effect works solidly over 2 minutes, it would be inaccurate to leave it out.

We're not 100% sure Power Surge can last that long, but it seems more likely than not.

What if a better item comes along that does something even better than madstone boots, counting in singular items is generally a bad idea because they could be removed/changed or outdated at any time. How likely is it that level 20 characters won't have found something better, or even into epic levels.

Not everyone has them either...

[Cold_Stele]

What if a better item comes along that does something even better than madstone boots, counting in singular items is generally a bad idea because they could be removed/changed or outdated at any time. How likely is it that level 20 characters won't have found something better, or even into epic levels.

Not everyone has them either...

I really can't believe you're still arguing about this.

Who's wearing the Cloak of Greater Math Resistance now?

BTW - even if we play along with your little fantasy about Power Surge and Madstone not existing you still get these numbers.

[EinarMal]

I really can't believe you're still arguing about this.

Who's wearing the Cloak of Greater Math Resistance now?

BTW - even if we play along with your little fantasy about Power Surge and Madstone not existing you still get these numbers.

Even in your best case (no evil outsiders) you are looking at 140/128 or 9%, is that adding in divine might and favor pre-crit, it looks off to me. Plus you are also comparing khopesh to a rapier as well, just go human on the Pally with Khopesh if you really want to compare the two.

Also where are you getting the 3d6 +6 extra damage for the fighter are you counting weapon spec 2x? Kensai adds +2 where is the other +4 coming from.

Also at most the strength difference should be +2 between them if you are really comparing DPS potential between the two, yeah you might have to lower con and dump stat wisdom, but with human toughness + pally toughness that is still plenty of hit points.

[Cold_Stele]

Yes it includes DM3 and DF pre-crit and 10% melee speed boost from Zeal.

What it doesn't include is Kensai Seeker so Kensai DPS is down a little from what it should be.

What it shows, as I said, is that all those bonuses 'to hit' mean that Kensai can keep PA switched on for longer. Anything past 30AC Pally starts missing enough that DPS suffers.

40AC is about 152 vs 112. That's a hell of a lot more than 9% more DPS.

This will still be true of mod 9 Pallies, except for KotC vs Evil Outsiders of course.

Extra damage is Holy/Acid for Min II plus 6 for Kensai (2 Wpn Spec Ehn, 2 Kensai, 2 Dorf) and 11 for Pally (3 DF, 6 DM, 2 Drow).

OK I'll do you Human Khopesh Kensai vs Human Khopesh Pally gimme a sec.

Pally will be -

STR 16, Dex 15, Con 12, Int 8, Wis 8, Cha 14. Agreed? I'll give +2 tomes across the board so Pally will have DM2.

[dopey69]

Just a few comments.
1. Tier 2 and tier 3 are very respectable and more inline with other classes which is great.

2. Tier 1 is still disappointing in comparison to Tempest 1 so it is much better to go 12 fighter 6 ranger then 12 ranger 6 fighter which I feel shouldn't be the case.

3. I am not a 100% sure that this is enough actually. It makes the fighter competitive with the other classes as they currently stand but vs. rangers at level 20 with tempest 2 and tempest 3 and barbarians with their prc and barb crit rage 2 and paladins with their prc and zeal and divine might I am not sure will be competitive.

4. Tier 3 although nice is very pro rapier again. This game is in danger of becoming all piercing specced players. I am not sure how to fix that well anyway up to you.

who cares if the whole server is piercing and why would you care enough to worrie about fixing it, i just don't get it. leave the dang game alone fix something for the few squeeky wheels and what ? p.o. 75% of the others sheez

[EinarMal]

Yes it includes DM3 and DF pre-crit and 10% melee speed boost from Zeal.

What it doesn't include is Kensai Seeker so Kensai DPS is down a little from what it should be.

What it shows, as I said, is that all those bonuses 'to hit' mean that Kensai can keep PA switched on for longer. Anything past 30AC Pally starts missing enough that DPS suffers.

40AC is about 152 vs 112. That's a hell of a lot more than 9% more DPS.

This will still be true of mod 9 Pallies, except for KotC vs Evil Outsiders of course.

Extra damage is Holy/Acid for Min II plus 6 for Kensai (2 Wpn Spec Ehn, 2 Kensai, 2 Dorf) and 11 for Pally (3 DF, 6 DM, 2 Drow).

OK I'll do you Human Khopesh Kensai vs Human Khopesh Pally gimme a sec.

Pally will be -

STR 16, Dex 15, Con 12, Int 8, Wis 8, Cha 14. Agreed? I'll give +2 tomes across the board so Pally will have DM2.

Paladin level 20 to-hit
BAB +20
Str +11
DF +3
Weapon +5
TWF -2
PA -5
Haste +1
GH +4

That is +37 with very basic buffs, closer to +40 with Bard buffs. If Paladins can't hit then all 3/4 BAB classes will be totally screwed power attack or no. I do not think you will see many cases where you need ultra high to-hit. They already made that mistake once.

A Pally who goes strictly for DPS would have DM3 and 17 starting strength although you need a +3 tome to hit an even number (you can give the fitghter a +3 tome as well)

Pally
str 17 +5 Levels +3 Tome +1 Enh. +6 Item = 32
dex 15
con 9
cha 16

Fighter
18 +5 Levels +3 Tome +4 Enh. +6 Item = 36

[Cold_Stele]

Human Khopesh Kensai vs Human Khopesh Pally

NB Pally goes to 32 Str, Kensai to 36.

Power Surge + Madstone

Power Surge only

No Power Surge or Madstone

Edit - re. your stats - nope. Con 9 is ridiculous for a next to 0 AC TWF toon. I'll give you STR 17, Dex 15, Con 13. Int 8, Wis 8, Cha 14 though.

These numbers now include GH + Haste. So now Pally PA TWF starts to drop off at AC36 instead.

**Editing finished**

[EinarMal]

Human Khopesh Kensai vs Human Khopesh Pally

NB Human Pally goes from 29 to 30 Str, Kensai feom 34 to 35.

Power Surge + Madstone

Power Surge only

No Power Surge or Madstone

Edit - re. your stats - nope. Con 9 is ridiculous for a next to 0 AC TWF toon.

These numbers now include GH + Haste. So now Pally PA TWF starts to frop off at AC35 instead.

Not really

9 +1 Tome +6 Item = 16 Con

HP:
200(Levels) +20(Heroic) +10(Draconic) +30(GFL) +60(Con) +22(Helm) +22(Tough) +70(Enh.) +45(GS)=479

[Cold_Stele]

Nope. If you want to work out how much damage a gimp Pally does you work it out and post it.

[EinarMal]

Nope. If you want to work out how much damage a gimp Pally does you work it out and post it.

Meh it's about 5% less than a fighter and I will call it a day

[Cold_Stele]

Meh it's about 5% less than a fighter and I will call it a day

Deal, let's call it a day

Tomorrow I'll try to work out Kensai vs Frenzied Berserker and Tempest, so we can how badly the poor Ftr is going to struggle.