Fighter Kensai Preview

[Cold_Stele]

Ninja removed...

[nbhs275]

Epic Fail.

SWF is in game.

You're also wrong about AC potential which is also WORSE than a Ftr, unless you go Dwarf (no FAM, FTSM or TS proficiency).

Monk levels dip ****. OR the +5 from paladin, which is far more then the +3 extra dex for a fighter. Add in the fact that they do this to the entire nearby party, and its a hell of a lot better then a paladins AC.


+6 Wpn Spec is +4 from 2 feats, +2 from enhancement.

Duel rapiers with the +2 racial, +3 DF, +6 DM, is BETTER then the fighter using khopeshs

If we add +2 for Rapier that means you're gimping yourself and not using Khopesh.

If we both go Human you lose 2 for DM and I lose 2 for Dorf Axe so remains unchanged.

You're...to...hit...is...too...low...to...run...wi th...PA...on...24/7.

Hate to tell you, but DF applies to hit, meaning +3 attack, more then the +2 a fighter gets from spending 2 feats.

This is even more true now that you can't splash for extra feats.

Who needs extra feats? 6 feats, enough for PA, IC, TWF, ITWF, GTWF, and OTWF.

Must I go on? Seriously? Give it up, eh?

Oh, and learn how to use haste boost properly. 12 seconds?

Haste boost takes a few seconds for its effect to set in, and is only useful as long as you actually have an enemy standing there. Apart from shroud and a few other places where a mob can be cornered in, most enemies will move away. So you got a 35% increase in attack speed for a minute and forty seconds a shrine, and it only cost you 10(TEN) AP. Hmm, the paladin gets a 10% attack speed bonus 24/7...which is better hmm? 10% over ten minutes between shrines, for free, or almost 2 minutes of 35%...at the low low price of 1/6th of all your AP?

You are right about one thing though, pure Pallies are gonna rock against Outsiders, even more so with the new capstone. Not bad for, what did you say?



Oh yes that was it

Cold, math aint your game bro. Lets see if we can't find you some duplo blocks to play with.

[nbhs275]

Paladins can't use Madstone Boots "with impunity", because they run a risk of needing to refresh one of their short-duration DPS buffs. They can only use Madstone in controlled situations.

True, but you also need to conceed that +2 strength isnt going to make the fighter suck any less compared to a true paladin.

[Cold_Stele]

Ninja!

Cold, math aint your game bro. Lets see if we can't find you some duplo blocks to play with.

Looks like reading's not yours.

Here are the numbers -

OK let's look at the math again. You've chosen Drow for your Pally because you need the Cha. I can dump stat Cha for my Ftr so I'm going to choose Dwarf -

Ftr TWF Static Damage Bonus:
+6(GWS) +2(K3) +3(Higher Str) + 4(K2 Power Surge) +2(Dwarf Axe enhancement) = +17 per swing +1 critical threat and 8-10 haste boosts.

Paladin TWF Static Damage Bonus:
+3(DF) +6(DM) = +9 per swing +10% faster attack speed and smites/sacrifices.

And my Ftr has +3 (Str) +2 (K3) +3 (SWF) +8 to hit compared to your Pally's dispellable +3. My Ftr can consistently hit with PA on for a total of +22 per swing which your Pally cannot. So in level appropriate content, where large minuses to hit are going to affect DPS, my Ftr does 13 more points per swing.

Please tell me where they're wrong.

Remember we're comparing Pally (no PrE or capstone) to Kensai.

Oh and don't forget to include Madstone.

What color duplo blocks shall I get you little fella?

[Angelus_dead]

Please tell me where they're wrong.

Eh, I'm not reading the whole thing carefully, but it's not fair to give a dwarf +2 axes if a drow can't have +2 rapiers.

[Borror0]

I just pray that it's not just for S&B (no offence Borro).

I sure hope it won't be S&B only too.

[Cold_Stele]

Eh, I'm not reading the whole thing carefully, but it's not fair to give a dwarf +2 axes if a drow can't have +2 rapiers.

He chose Drow cos of DM3.

Is GS Rapier better DPS than GS Khopesh for a Drow? My gut instinct says no but Ftr is so far in front I won't argue the point.

[nbhs275]

Ninja!



Looks like reading's not yours.

Here are the numbers -


Please tell me where they're wrong.

Remember we're comparing Pally (no PrE or capstone) to Kensai.

Oh and don't forget to include Madstone.

What color duplo blocks shall I get you little fella?

Higher Str? At most the fighter has 3 more Str, so at most +2 damage main hand, +1 off hand. IF your going to use dwarf, then whats to stop the drow from getting +2 racial?

So let me get this straight, the kensia dwarf, has spent 11 AP on kensia, 10 AP on haste boost, 10 AP on attack boost, 9 AP on dwarven axe focus(+4DMG), 12 AP on +3 str...hmm, so out of the 80 AP at level 20, you have spent 52, to become nearly as good as a plain jane paladin at damage? YEA, reallll even.

So where was it then, you spent 52 AP and 4 feats for +10 damage, while the paladin spent 6 AP for +9, 12AP on a dwarf or drow for +11.



Oh, don't forget all said, even if your doing 5% more damage a hit, the paladin is also attacking 10%, which is an overall 10% increase in damage output.

[Cold_Stele]

Higher Str? At most the fighter has 3 more Str, so at most +2 damage main hand, +1 off hand. IF your going to use dwarf, then whats to stop the drow from getting +2 racial?

Str is 5 or 6 higher (15-16 starting) bearing in mind Pally has to buy Dex, Cha and Con (which is why Einer chose Drow).

Einer's numbers were these -

Fighter would be 18 +5 Levels +2 Tome +3 Enh. +6 Item = 34
Paladin would be 16 +5 Levels +1 Tome +6 Item = 28

I'll give you the +2 Rapier damage (I still think he'd get more DPS fromKhopesh though).

End result is still - Ftr +18 per swing with single Madstone (2d8+23).

Pally +11 per swing with rapier (1d8+16).

Ftr can hit reliably 24/7 with PA for another +5 which Pally cannot.

Now I know you say my math is bad, but I think that's a touch more than 5% more DPS.

EDIT - I'm not saying Pallies aren't great, they're amazing. TWF Pure KOC is going to rule.

Neither am I saying Kensai is all that. It isn't, it really could use some love.

I am saying though that no way can non-PrE Pally out DPS Kensai.

[Emili]

Ninja!



Looks like reading's not yours.

Here are the numbers -


Please tell me where they're wrong.

Remember we're comparing Pally (no PrE or capstone) to Kensai.

Oh and don't forget to include Madstone.

What color duplo blocks shall I get you little fella?

Why? I'm confused? Why would anyone make a comaparison of Fighter under PrE's to a pretty stripped AP pally? My experience with both is that the fighter is a straight nobrainer consistant dps where as a pally you button mash a bit more...

ie.) Emili a human fighter sits at 34 str while Amilia is a drow at 30 str/26 cha ...

Emili normal self buffs consist of GH + rage + madstone (when kicked in)... I would bloodrage her but my choker sits on my barb most the time... I typically fighter haste boost her from time to time to get some speed but is trivial... Ahe's HV IV too so can burst for another +5 for a short time but really those burst buttons take away a swing. Weapon Specializations add up to what +6 in feat and enhancements.

Amilia runs with GH + Rage + Divine Might + Divine Favor + Zeal + (madstone once in a while as I like to DF most the time)... Divine might + Divine favor pretty much evens up with the fighter's exta +2 from str and +6 from feats/enhancements ... I think the difference is what +2?

Both are using Power Attack near all the time as any melee running under GH should, you only turn such off if you're missing on swings... So do not count PA as fighter only, Pallys who have it do fine with it as they're most likely spec'd and buffed enough.

My experience in playing them is both are very close in output but Amy is more key intensive yet has a heck of a burst mode... a few chained exalted smite while TWF (doubled) can crit well in the 500-600 range very nice for evil bosses...

After mod Emili will be Kensai and Amilia a Knight of Chalice... I expect them to still be pretty close...

[Cold_Stele]

[COLOR="Plum"]
Why? I'm confused? Why would anyone make a comaparison of Fighter under PrE's to a pretty stripped AP pally?

I honestly have no idea either.

Someone claimed that non-PrE Pally would out-DPS Kensai. Crazy I know.

Your example reinforces that non-PrE Pally and Ftr are about even.

Thanks for the breath of sanity into the thread

[nbhs275]

Str is 5 or 6 higher (15-16 starting) bearing in mind Pally has to buy Dex, Cha and Con (which is why Einer chose Drow).
OH, so we are gunna skew the numbers so that you can try and "win" the arguement eh? Then lets not forget, the fighter needs just as much dexterity to TWF, but lacks the racial bonus to make it cheap. Which if we are saying +1 tomes are the only tomes available, means you need a base 16, 10 of your build points. The drow needs only 6. Then you need a 18 str, so 16 of your build points.

Leaving you with the choice of either dumping wisdom and having crappy will saves and a 16 base con(tho what good are those hitpoints when your constantly on the ground commanded or held?)

Where the paladin actually has simplier choices. She can easily dump wisdom without a worry, and seeing she has saved points because of inherient dexterity, has plenty to sure up cha and con. And considering DM III only takes a base 16 cha, a drow need only spend 4 points there to get it. Hmm, didnt we save 4 points because of the lower dex investment?

So again, with the same equipment, the dwarf is 3 str ahead. Though when your at 18 base +5 lvl +6 item +3 tome =32, 3 brings you to an odd number. so 2 effective. So 1 damage.

So the real way the damage works out for the paladin, is +3 DF +6DM +2rapier +5 wpn+5PA +11 STR= +32 Offhand is +3 DF +6DM +2rapier +5wpn+5PA+5Str=+26

Vs the fighter who has

+4 WS +2WSE +2Kensia +5wpn+5PA +12STR = +30, offhand is +4 WS +2WSE +2Kensia +5wpn+5PA +6STR = +24

So not only are you hitting for less each swing, but the paladin is also attacking 10% faster(again, a complete 10% more DPS). Oh, and he only spent 6 AP. Oh, and he has all strong saves. OH and he has more AC. Oh, and he can heal. Oh and this isnt even factoring the additional bonuses he gets from any one of the 3 enhancment lines that are far stronger then kensia.


Einer's numbers were these -

Fighter would be 18 +5 Levels +2 Tome +3 Enh. +6 Item = 34
Paladin would be 16 +5 Levels +1 Tome +6 Item = 28

I'll give you the +2 Rapier damage (I still think he'd get more DPS fromKhopesh though).

End result is still - Ftr +18 per swing with single Madstone (2d8+23).

Pally +11 per swing with rapier (1d8+16).

Ftr can hit reliably 24/7 with PA for another +5 which Pally cannot.

Now I know you say my math is bad, but I think that's a touch more than 5% more DPS.

EDIT - I'm not saying Pallies aren't great, they're amazing. TWF Pure KOC is going to rule.

Neither am I saying Kensai is all that. It isn't, it really could use some love.

I am saying though that no way can non-PrE Pally out DPS Kensai.

And if that isnt making much sense to you, lets see if a nice pretty picture helps you

[Monkey_Archer]

While the comparisons with all these variables may sway this argument towards the fighter or paladin depending on who runs the numbers.....

Both a paladin and a fighter can be the SAME race, use the SAME weapons, and start with the SAME strength.... Why would you even try to compare with different races, weapons and stats????

A fighter gets +3 str over a paladin and +2 damage with weapon spec... a paladin can boost damage +2-6 with divine might...

Fighters have a short haste boost that costs ap... Paladins have zeal which costs sp...

Fighters can take damage boosting feats.... Paladins can smite/divine sacrifice...

Dont even need to compare numbers to realize that ..
1) Completely unboosted a fighter can out dps a paladin...
2) With boosts like divine might and zeal (which will be active most of the time) a paladin can out dps a fighter
3) Paladins can do massive damage to evil that fighters cannot with smites
4) For 100 seconds per rest (haste boost) a fighter can out dps a completly boosted paladin


So... (point #2) paladins will out dps a fighter most of the time..
And... (point #1,4) fighters can out dps when fighting near beholders...
But... (point #3) Paladins will do more damage to the beholder anyway...


While most paladins will split their stats and abilities for things like wisdom, AC, etc... in terms of pure max dps potential paladins win (in most circumstances).....

[Cold_Stele]

And if that isnt making much sense to you, lets see if a nice pretty picture helps you

Wow, thanks so much for the pretty picture.

Don't want to burst your bubble but you 'accidentally forgot' Kensai Power Surge. Your Pally seems to have 'mistakenly' boosted his Str to 32 as well. Silly you.

Oh nice try with the base damage too. See what it looks like with 2d8 vs 1d8 on the primary hand too, eh?


Now let's talk about this 18 Str Drow Pally. I'm going to give him a bunch of +2 tomes so he can get GTWF and DM3, I'm generous like that.

So he's going to buy Dex 15 and Cha 16 for his DPS, he leaves Int at 10 and Wis at 8. How many points does he have left to buy stats?

1

He has a Con of 7.

How about you do yourself a favor and stop writing this nonsense?

Or do me a favor and stop me having to waste seconds of my life answering it?

[Desteria]

Wow, thanks so much for the pretty picture.

Don't want to burst your bubble but you 'accidentally forgot' Kensai Power Surge. Your Pally seems to have 'mistakenly' boosted his Str to 32 as well. Silly you.

Oh and let's talk about this 18 Str Drow Pally.

So he's going to buy Dex 15 and Cha 16 for his DPS, he leaves Int at 10 and Wis at 8. How many points does he have left to buy stats?

1

He has a Con of 7.

How about you do yourself a favor and stop writing this nonsense?

Or do me a favor and stop me having to waste seconds of my life answering it?

my drow pally started with 9 con!!! he survives purty good, the change to tougeness AP's hurt a bit, but he still does nto have a shroud hp item....

[Cold_Stele]

No don't quote me yet!

I had to edit cos I noted I had /sarcasm off!

[Monkey_Archer]

It is a lot easier for a fighter to max strength and get all the feats required for high dps, but it is theoretically possible for a paladin to get higher dps that a fighter just cannot achive. Period.

[Cold_Stele]

Here's a pretty picture for you too.


Hit 'modify' and I'll show you my breakdown.

Extra damage is Holy/Acid for Min II plus 6 for Kensai (2 Wpn Spec Ehn, 2 Kensai, 2 Dorf) and 11 for Pally (3 DF, 6 DM, 2 Drow).

Wpn To Hit is 5 +3 Kensai (1 SWF, 2 Kensai) and +3 for Pally (DF).

Extra crit is Acid Burst

Strength is -

Kensai 18 +5 Levels +2 Tome +3 Enh +6 Item +8 Kensai +2 Madstone = 44
Paladin 16 +5 Levels +2 Tome +6 Item = 29

I'll reiterate - Pally cannot Madstone with impunity as his DPS relies on spell casting.

Target AC range is a much more realistic 30-60.


Looks like you got pwned son.

[Monkey_Archer]

Here's a pretty picture for you too.


Hit 'modify' and I'll show you my breakdown.

Extra damage is Holy/Acid for Min II plus 6 for Kensai (2 Wpn Spec Ehn, 2 Kensai, 2 Dorf) and 11 for Pally (3 DF, 6 DM, 2 Drow).

Wpn To Hit is 5 +1 Kensai (SWF) and +3 for Pally (DF).

Extra crit is Acid Burst

Strength is -

Kensai 18 +5 Levels +2 Tome +3 Enh +6 Item +8 Kensai +2 Madstone = 44
Paladin 16 +5 Levels +2 Tome +6 Item = 29

I'll reiterate - Pally cannot Madstone with impunity as his DPS relies on spell casting.

Target AC range is a much more realistic 30-60.


Looks like you got pwned son.

Not to intervene on a pointless off topic argument.... but why are you comparing a kensai with better weapons and feats with a paladin thats clearly missing alot like smites, divine sacrifice and possible paladin prestige class bonuses?

Not to mention a paladin can hit 32 str without rages...

[Cold_Stele]

Not to intervene on a pointless off topic argument.... but why are you comparing a kensai with better weapons and feats with a paladin thats clearly missing alot like smites, divine sacrifice and possible paladin prestige class bonuses?

Not to mention a paladin can hit 32 str...

Why am I comparing non-PrE Pally to Kensai?

Because Einer claimed that non-PrE Pally does more DPS than Kensai and I disproved it.

I thought that was done and settled but now nbhs275 is trying to flog this dead horse too.

Please read above about max Str Drow Pally. With DM 3 and GTWF (which is what Einer chose for his comparison) he has a Con of 7.

Oh, and I agree that it's a pointless off topic argument too. It should have ended long ago.