Fighter Kensai Preview

[Aesop]

M_A don't forget you also get extra uses of your Boosts

again not saying I don't think Kensai could use a little love but its not that bad.


I think having a Competance Bonus to RoA would be a nice touch... even a small bonus. make it the same type of Bonus as Tempest so that it doesn't stack
tier 1. 5%
2. 7.5% total
3. 10% total

hell go lower and only make it the first 2 tiers

2.5%
5%

it'd be a nice little bonus for someone who is the supreme master with a specific weapon

Aesop

[EinarMal]

M_A don't forget you also get extra uses of your Boosts

again not saying I don't think Kensai could use a little love but its not that bad.


I think having a Competance Bonus to RoA would be a nice touch... even a small bonus. make it the same type of Bonus as Tempest so that it doesn't stack
tier 1. 5%
2. 7.5% total
3. 10% total

hell go lower and only make it the first 2 tiers

2.5%
5%

it'd be a nice little bonus for someone who is the supreme master with a specific weapon

Aesop

I still think Fighters are pretty weak on the DPS even if you compare a Paladin (WITHOUT a prestige class to a Kensai).

TWF Static Damage Bonus:
4(GWS) +2(K3) +2(Higher Str) = +8 per swing +1 critical threat +haste boost

Paladin Static Damage Bonus:
3(DF) +6(DM) = +9 per swing +10% faster attack speed +smites/sacrifices

So DPS, is pretty close to a wash for a Fighter with Kensai III and a Paladin with no prestige class. Against Evil Outsiders a KOTC would pull way ahead.

At the same time the Paladin has much better saves, access to spells/lay on hands/healing wands/30 pt resists etc....

You can say Fighters have a lot of feats, however I already burned 4 of the extra ones to get DPS on par with the Paladin, and most burn a few more to get saves that are still inferior as well.

All in all I think Fighter is currently the worst class in the game (other than being a handy splash). The Kensai enhancements are not good enough for the cost.

They should at least double the static bonuses to +2 (Hit/Damage) at Tier 1 and Tier 2, and adding the 2%, 4%, 6% speed bonus you indicated would be good as well.

Math on a +1 critical range vs. 10% extra attacks while TWF

Fighter with Rapier crits 14-20 (50 dmg non-crit 100 crit):
10 swings = 35% * 100 + 60% * 50 = 65 * 10 = 650

Paladin with Rapier crits 15-20 (51 dmg non-crit 102 crit):
11 swings = 30% * 102 + 65% * 51 = 63.75 * 11 = 701.25

So the 10% faster attack speed and slightly higher base damage wins with a rapier easily with some realistic (IMO) current damage numbers. In general attack speed is very desirable, especially with classes like Fighter/Paladin that get a nice static bonus to damage with each swing.

[Cold_Stele]

EM - valid points for Pally vs Ftr but don't forget the class basics.

TWF Ftr has say 18+3 Str compared to 15 or so for TWF Pally.

TWF Pally has trouble fitting in OTWF along with the other feats (3 TWF, PA, CE, Toughness, Imp Crit, Khopesh, etc).

So lacking Str and OTWF for a decent to hit, TWF Ftr is going to be able to keep PA on constantly in comparison to TWF Pally.

Edit - your numbers include DM 3 which on TWF Pally really needs a +3 tome minimum. You also need to add in Wpn Spec enhancement for a total to your numbers of Ftr +8, Pally -2.

[EinarMal]

EM - valid points for Pally vs Ftr but don't forget the class basics.

TWF Ftr has say 18+3 Str compared to 15 or so for TWF Pally.

TWF Pally has trouble fitting in OTWF along with the other feats (3 TWF, PA, CE, Toughness, Imp Crit, Khopesh, etc).

So lacking Str and OTWF for a decent to hit, TWF Ftr is going to be able to keep PA on constantly in comparison to TWF Pally.

Edit - your numbers include DM 3 which on TWF Pally really needs a +3 tome minimum. You also need to add in Wpn Spec enhancement for a total of Ftr +7, Pally -2.

There is a weapon spec enhancement? I did give the fighter a +2 higher strength, so you are saying it is most likely +3. I agree the two hit is a bit higher as well.

I don't think it is that hard to hit 18 charisma, at least on a Drow you can do it failry easily with a +2 tome I think

Str 16 (10)
Dex 15 (5)
Con 12 (6)
Int 10 (0)
Wis 9 (1)
Cha 16 (6)

Fighter would be 18 +5 Levels +2 Tome +3 Enh. +6 Item = 34
Paladin would be 16 +5 Levels +1 Tome +6 Item = 28

So no need to subtract from the pally for divine might. I should have put in +3 for strength for the fighter though.

The overall point is still valid I think, DPS of a plain Paladin without a PRE is pretty much even with a Kensai III Fighter +/- a tiny amount we could debate. Given all the other Paladin benefits Fighters are in pretty bad shape IMO.

Keep in mind if I were building this Pally it would be with either 2 Fighter or 2 Monk. Probably 2 Fighter in this case, so the strength difference would go back to +2, and you would have all the feats you need.

TWF x 3
Khopesh
PA
(FB)OTWF
(FB)IC Slashing
CE or Toughness or Extend (Pick 2)

[Cold_Stele]

Drow? /meh sure they can get DM3 but if you want a REAL race, nope.

Your Pally also has to sacrifice his capstone enhancement to try to match the +5 per swing the Ftr gets from PA and OTWF. Even then his to hit is 3 lower than Ftr on top of the -7, certainly enough to make a difference.

Not saying you're wrong that Pally DPS doesn't have potential compared to Ftr on paper, but they have to spread their stats too thin to properly capitalize on that.

You just have to look how the differing classes perform in the game to see that.

[EinarMal]

Drow? /meh sure they can get DM3 but if you want a REAL race, nope.

Your Pally also has to sacrifice his capstone enhancement to try to match the +5 per swing the Ftr gets from PA and OTWF. Even then his to hit is 3 lower than Ftr on top of the -7, certainly enough to make a difference.

Not saying you're wrong that Pally DPS doesn't have potential compared to Ftr on paper, but they have to spread their stats too thin to properly capitalize on that.

You just have to look how the differing classes perform in the game to see that.

I disagree and the math supports that essentially a Paladin (with no PRE) is about dead even with a Fighter with Kensai III. In game a properly built TWF with zeal + divine favor + divine might is clearly ahead of a Fighter today. Kensai will close the gap to make them essentially even.

To me a Fighter who is even with a Paladin in DPS (if you are building a TWF DPS build) is overall much worse than a Paladin. If you are even in DPS, you are still behind in saves, AC potential, and utility (spells/wands etc...).

Capstones are for non min/max people who roleplay builds and want to stay "pure". Almost every melee is better off by taking 2 levels of another class.

[Cold_Stele]

I disagree and the math supports that essentially a Paladin (with no PRE) is about dead even with a Fighter with Kensai III. In game a properly built TWF with zeal + divine favor + divine might is clearly ahead of a Fighter today. Kensai will close the gap to make them essentially even.

OK let's look at the math again. You've chosen Drow for your Pally because you need the Cha. I can dump stat Cha for my Ftr so I'm going to choose Dwarf -

Ftr TWF Static Damage Bonus:
+6(GWS) +2(K3) +3(Higher Str) + 4(K2 Power Surge) +2(Dwarf Axe enhancement) = +17 per swing +1 critical threat and 8-10 haste boosts.

Paladin TWF Static Damage Bonus:
+3(DF) +6(DM) = +9 per swing +10% faster attack speed and smites/sacrifices.

And my Ftr has +3 (Str) +2 (K3) +3 (SWF) +8 to hit compared to your Pally's dispellable +3. My Ftr can consistently hit with PA on for a total of +22 per swing which your Pally cannot. So in level appropriate content, where large minuses to hit are going to affect DPS, my Ftr does 13 more points per swing.

Capstones are for non min/max people who roleplay builds and want to stay "pure". Almost every melee is better off by taking 2 levels of another class.

I guess we'll know the answer to that one soon...

[Monkey_Archer]

Honestly i dont think extra feats giving dps is a valid arugument for keeping a fighter on par with paladins...
Feats are a defining aspect of a fighter, much like paladin saves, spells, ac, immunities, etc... need i go on?

A fighter giving up all these feats to match a pali dps is like telling the pali to give up his saves, spells etc....
Feats *should* be an extra consideration *after* comparing dps cababilites.... just like pali abilites...

In terms of pure max dps potential though I could hazard a guess at FB being in first, followed closely by Tempest rangers, followed by paladins vs Evil, and a Kensai (using khopesh of course, god forbid they chose a sword) in a distant 4th.

Although tempest rangers vs favored enemies might be better then FB actually....

[Monkey_Archer]

My issues with crit range aside... and assuming its here to stay....
I think the best way to "fix" kensai would be to double the tier 1&2 damage bonuses and have tier 3 allow powersurge to temporarily increase your weapons critical multiplier by 1.

[Cold_Stele]

Oh I forgot Madstone boots in the above numbers, which only the Ftr can use with impunity, for an exta +1-2 to hit and damage.

[EinarMal]

OK let's look at the math again. You've chosen Drow for your Pally because you need the Cha. I can dump stat Cha for my Ftr so I'm going to choose Dwarf -

Ftr TWF Static Damage Bonus:
+6(GWS) +2(K3) +3(Higher Str) + 4(K2 Power Surge) +2(Dwarf Axe enhancement) = +17 per swing +1 critical threat and 8-10 haste boosts.

Paladin TWF Static Damage Bonus:
+3(DF) +6(DM) = +9 per swing +10% faster attack speed and smites/sacrifices.

And my Ftr has +3 (Str) +2 (K3) +3 (SWF) +8 to hit compared to your Pally's dispellable +3. My Ftr can consistently hit with PA on for a total of +22 per swing which your Pally cannot. So in level appropriate content, where large minuses to hit are going to affect DPS, my Ftr does 13 more points per swing.

First your counting power surge which may be very short duration we don't know. Haste boosts are about 12s of benefit real time factoring activation time and lost seconds of use. You left out rapier enhancements for the Paladin. If you are going to count temp affects like haste boost and power surge might as well add in exalted smites/divine sacrifice as well. SWF is that superior weapon focus? That doesn't even exist. How are you getting +6 from weapon spec?

In general the 10% faster attack speed is better than +1 critical range. Also, that is again without any prestige enhancements for the Paladin. The fact is against current and next mod end game mobs ( a lot of them Evil Outsiders) you have to add in 4d6 more damage for the Paladin and +4 to hit.

Again, you may get a small ~5% difference in DPS between the two, except against Evil Outsiders which the Paladin's win. Again the point you seem to be ignoring is that at the same time as doing virtually the same DPS as a Fighter I have better saves, better AC potential and can cast a lot of very useful spells/effects.

Kensai is weak IMO in making fighters more competitive with the other melee classes. They are worse than Rangers and Paladins to me as both splash very well with monk.

[maddmatt70]

I lead alot of shroud specifically speed shrouds. I like to go for speed record attempts on occasion. An unspoken rule of thumb is no fighters (can be on if have 6 ranger levels) and monks on these speed run record attempts. Now monks are a newer class and we all know that the developers are improving it - it also is not due any prestige classes until at least module 10. Fighters have been around since day one, but they can not compete with the other classes in dps terms and the kensai is not going to change things especially since the other classes got alot of love too. They need to improve kensai (at least double the static damage for each tier and adjust for the inflation of ddo and make the power surge +12), but they also need to give fighters real dps feats (weapon mastery is my recommendation - +1 crit range). It shouldn't be you have to be a kensai as a fighter to get in a group either.

[Monkey_Archer]

I lead alot of shroud specifically speed shrouds. I like to go for speed record attempts on occasion. An unspoken rule of thumb is no fighters (can be on if have 6 ranger levels) and monks on these speed run record attempts. Now monks are a newer class and we all know that the developers are improving it - it also is not due any prestige classes until at least module 10. Fighters have been around since day one, but they can not compete with the other classes in dps terms and the kensai is not going to change things especially since the other classes got alot of love too. They need to improve kensai (at least double the static damage for each tier and adjust for the inflation of ddo and make the power surge +12), but they also need to give fighters real dps feats (weapon mastery is my recommendation - +1 crit range). It shouldn't be you have to be a kensai as a fighter to get in a group either.

As a base class fighters are completly capable of dealing dps when compared with barbs rangers and paladins.
The problem is Rangers can then add tempest and favored enemy damage.
Paladins can add smites, zeal etc..
Barbarians can critical rage (or frenzy next mod instead)..
Fighters have nothing other then a possible +2 damage with weapon spec.

Since kensai is the only real dps prestige for fighters (not really sure how purple dragon knight is gonna work) it should be able to stack up against these dps advantages for the other melee classes. Honestly i dont even think kensai 3 can even beat tempest 1 atm, is comparable to a regular paladin, and not even close to a barbarian...

The problem with monks can be summarized as: "no transmuting greenweave handwraps" and build choice....
Monks get most of their dps from handwraps, not staff or kama, and not being able to use your best dps option because i cant bypass DR is a huge problem for monk dps.... try handing a barbarian a non-transmuting club and see how well he does....
Also, most monks i know are not str based, further decreasing dps potential.

[Cold_Stele]

SWF is that superior weapon focus? That doesn't even exist. How are you getting +6 from weapon spec?

Epic Fail.

SWF is in game.

You're also wrong about AC potential which is also WORSE than a Ftr, unless you go Dwarf (no FAM, FTSM or TS proficiency).

+6 Wpn Spec is +4 from 2 feats, +2 from enhancement.

If we add +2 for Rapier that means you're gimping yourself and not using Khopesh.

If we both go Human you lose 2 for DM and I lose 2 for Dorf Axe so remains unchanged.

You're...to...hit...is...too...low...to...run...wi th...PA...on...24/7.

This is even more true now that you can't splash for extra feats.

Must I go on? Seriously? Give it up, eh?

Oh, and learn how to use haste boost properly. 12 seconds?

You are right about one thing though, pure Pallies are gonna rock against Outsiders, even more so with the new capstone. Not bad for, what did you say?

Capstones are for non min/max people who roleplay builds and want to stay "pure".

Oh yes that was it

[Cold_Stele]

Fighter's capstone is going to be.....

Weapon Alacrity.

http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p...7&postcount=61

There was a feat of the same name that was dropped from the game for being too powerful, back in mod 3.

IIRC it was an attack speed boost.

[Borror0]

IIRC it was an attack speed boost.

Weapon Alacrity: Slashing
Weapon Alacrity: Piercing
Weapon Alacrity: Bludgeoning

These feats allow a combatant using a single one-handed weapon (or a weapon and a shield) to attack faster by making their fourth standing attack a double-attack. These feats do not work with dual wielding or with two handed weapons and you must have a BAB 11.

http://www.ddo-europe.com/developmen...ment%20Updates

[nbhs275]

Oh I forgot Madstone boots in the above numbers, which only the Ftr can use with impunity, for an exta +1-2 to hit and damage.

fighters, barbarians, rangers, paladins, and rogues. So that being a fighter excusive item is a no go.

Its simple math Cold, even with the current kensia, a fighters damage numbers are far behind all of the classes i mentioned before. And thats because of a reason that is also the cause for the pnp fighter being a gimped weaksauce class. Lack of feats and overall weak feat choices.

Weapon specialization requires a feat, and 4 fighter levels for 2 damage. Boom, right there you gotta see that and kinda gawk.

Rangers get +2 str +2 damage from Ram's, paladins and clerics get +3 attack and damage from divine favor, barbarians get a rage thats +4/4 to start(+2 attack +2 damage from str) and +10str at cap(+5 attack +5 damage), and rogues get a vanilla +12 SA damage.

See the imbalance? Fighters can spend 4 feats for an overall +2 attack, +4 damage. Thats 4 out of their 8 class feats at level 16. Seems like an awful steep investment for what ends up being less then what other classes get for free. Even the weapon specific enhancments are too little, too late. The only way these could make a large enough differents to keep fighters from being a distant last place is if the bonus was ramped up, and its tiers where increased. such as +2/+4/+6 at 1/2/3.

The only way kensia is changing any of this is if they double the damage bonuses, extend them to the third tier, and improve the crit range bonus to both range and multiplier.



Heres another one to gnaw on. A 20 fighter kensia, would have +8 damage, which cost him 9 AP and 4 feats, VS the lvl 20 ranger which would have +2 against everything, for free, and +10 against the 5 main enemy types in the game, for free.

[Cold_Stele]

Looks like I got it wrong with the old feat. From Eladrin's hint it looks like something to do with Str and/or attack speed though.

I just pray that it's not just for S&B (no offence Borro).

[Cold_Stele]

fighters, barbarians, rangers, paladins, and rogues. So that being a fighter excusive item is a no go.

All very, very true. I'm under no illusions where Ftrs are in the DPS food chain.

This discussion though is about Einermal's assertation that Pally (no PrE or capstone) is better DPS than Kensai.

Hence I include Madstone as his Pally's DPS is dependent upon DF and so he cannot use Madstone boots at will.

Whilst I also agree that Kensai need more love the assertation they do less DSP than a non-PrE Pally is pretty absurd.

If a third party wants to come in and look at the numbers, I'm all ears though.

[Angelus_dead]

fighters, barbarians, rangers, paladins, and rogues. So that being a fighter excusive item is a no go.

Paladins can't use Madstone Boots "with impunity", because they run a risk of needing to refresh one of their short-duration DPS buffs. They can only use Madstone in controlled situations.