Fighter Kensai Preview

[Angelus_dead]

Here is my basis. In pnp, a fighter has consistant damage across everything, while a ranger gets more, but against fewer targets. So while a lvl 12 fighter would get +4 damage against all enemy types, rangers at 12 get +6 against 3 different races.

That's not how D&D works: the ranger12 has +6 against orcs, +4 against giants, and +2 against humans.

[Monkey_Archer]

Lets say i agree with you that context is everything...
Within the context of this preview post for this class in this game, let me direct you to the original post....

The base prestige class requires a specific weapon, but we've expanded that as well to all longswords instead of just "the one given to me by my lord".

The base prestige class possesses a strong Eastern warrior-monk philosophy to it, so it seemed natural to make this a potentially desirable multiclass option.

Precision is the mark of a true swordmaster.

Sounds alot like the original translation of "swordsaint" still applies in this context....

[Monkey_Archer]

Anyways, i was thinkin about it this morning, and anyone think they should maybe increase the amounts of damaged added, and maybe add more benefit to the last tier?

I think someone suggested making it a crit multiplier instead of crit range for tier 3 to possibly justify the cost of kensai..... oh wait that was me

[MysticRhythms]

Sounds alot like the original translation of "swordsaint" still applies in this context....

Are you actually attempting to use a fluff argument to defend a game mechanics balance argument? Doesn't that seem contradictory? Kensai can certainly use swords if they wish. I don't understand why the name is such an issue.

[Borror0]

Sounds alot like the original translation of "swordsaint" still applies in this context....

Ever heard of poetic language?

[Cold_Stele]

You're telling me Ftrs are somewhat close to Rgrs? Smoked something nasty this morning Stele?

LOL Hell no

What I'm trying to say is that if Ftrs gets a solid melée capstone and the Rgr one is, for example, ranged, then Ftrs may not be so screwed (especially if STWF and SWpnSpec are trainable feats).

That's an awful lot of maybes though, and leaves out the poor multiclassed Ftrs

[Borror0]

That's an awful lot of maybes though, and leaves out the poor multiclassed Ftrs

You do realize how grossly overpowered the capstone would have to be for that?

[Draccus]

Any chance of rewriting the Assassin III PrE? It's glaringly inferior to the other PrE's released so far.

[Cold_Stele]

You do realize how grossly overpowered the capstone would have to be for that?

Grossly overpowered? In DDO?

Yeh like that's ever gonna happen

Seriously though good capstone with new feats vs a mediocre one will tip the scales somewhat. Just gonna have to wait for the rest of the previews I guess.

[Angelus_dead]

Any chance of rewriting the Assassin III PrE? It's glaringly inferior to the other PrE's released so far.

It's one of the very few specialties with NO feat requirements. None.

How does Assassin3 compare to Acrobat3 or Mechanic3? Yeah.

The cost of Assassin3 is is 6 AP, and the benefit is about +1 attack, +0.5 damage, +2 to some skills, and an insta-kill effect that could potentially be awesome. It's arguably worth the 6 AP.

[Draccus]

It's one of the very few specialties with NO feat requirements. None.

Which has no impact at all on it's relative power compared to the other specialties. None.

Additionally, it's the most expensive PrE from an AP cost standpoint.

Kidding aside, yes, having no feat requirement is a slight benefit but when comparing PrE effectiveness, Assassin III is pathetic compared to Tempest III and Kensai III. It's even more pathetic when you realize that they haven't announced the vorpal proc rate yet. At 100%, it's weak and we can be reasonably assured it will be something less than 100%.

[nbhs275]

I think someone suggested making it a crit multiplier instead of crit range for tier 3 to possibly justify the cost of kensai..... oh wait that was me

thats not really fixing anything. I much rather just see the attack/damage/seeker bonuses extended to the third tier, (with an increase on the damage).

[nbhs275]

Which has no impact at all on it's relative power compared to the other specialties. None.

Additionally, it's the most expensive PrE from an AP cost standpoint.

Kidding aside, yes, having no feat requirement is a slight benefit but when comparing PrE effectiveness, Assassin III is pathetic compared to Tempest III and Kensai III. It's even more pathetic when you realize that they haven't announced the vorpal proc rate yet. At 100%, it's weak and we can be reasonably assured it will be something less than 100%.

most of which are AP an self respecting rogue has anyways...

oh, and capstones should not be the point where they try to balance fighters vs the other melee classes.

[Angelus_dead]

Kidding aside, yes, having no feat requirement is a slight benefit but when comparing PrE effectiveness, Assassin III is pathetic compared to Tempest III and Kensai III.

Oh really? You've got the numbers on the Asssasin3 vorpal rate and Tempest3 attack rate?

Tell us.

As for Kensai3: A fighter18 is a weaker character than a rogue18, so he deserves a better specialty.

[Deathseeker]

Which has no impact at all on it's relative power compared to the other specialties. None.

Additionally, it's the most expensive PrE from an AP cost standpoint.

Kidding aside, yes, having no feat requirement is a slight benefit but when comparing PrE effectiveness, Assassin III is pathetic compared to Tempest III and Kensai III. It's even more pathetic when you realize that they haven't announced the vorpal proc rate yet. At 100%, it's weak and we can be reasonably assured it will be something less than 100%.

I think you are making a very, very common mistake of comparing the PrE's to each other as opposed to the complete set of enhancements/abilities/feats compared to each other. Without knowing more detail on the other things available between levels 16 through 20, its hard to make this statement. The PrE is only one factor in the equation.

With that said, either the Fighter better get a whole lot of help from level 16 to 20 or some great new feats better be added (which help fighters due to their abundance of feats) or something. I don't mind Kensai as a PrE vs Tempest vs Assassin vs Frenzied...but since fighters otherwise seem lacking, if the PrE doesnt help them something else needs to.

I think this is why in the last mod the two new fighter feats were added that increase weapon specific damage. Just not sure they go quite far enough.

I also think people are overestimating the effectiveness of Tempest III. I think the extra attacks may be much less effective in the real world depending on when they come (though Im assuming they are consistent with the previously released detail on STWF) and on which hand. Moving completely tears up the attack chain, and thus many of those expected attacks may never occur...whereas a straight damage enhancement, or speed enhancement, always applies.

[Monkey_Archer]

thats not really fixing anything. I much rather just see the attack/damage/seeker bonuses extended to the third tier, (with an increase on the damage).

True, replacing the existing imbalance that favors axes with a more powerful one that favors swords is a bad way to fix kensai (even if in my oppinion it would make more sense). But then im biased toward the original meaning of kensai being translated into a similar focused ddo class.....

I too, would also rather see attack/damage/seeker extend to tier 3 instead of crit range.

[nbhs275]

True, replacing the existing imbalance that favors axes with a more powerful one that favors swords is a bad way to fix kensai (even if in my oppinion it would make more sense). But then im biased toward the original meaning of kensai being translated into a similar focused ddo class.....

I too, would also rather see attack/damage/seeker extend to tier 3 instead of crit range.

If they extended the bonuses to all 3 tiers, or increased them and made tier 3 +1 range/ +1 multiplier, then it would be a good power balance between most weapons, and comparable to the other DPS classes.

[Monkey_Archer]

If they extended the bonuses to all 3 tiers, or increased them and made tier 3 +1 range/ +1 multiplier, then it would be a good power balance between most weapons, and comparable to the other DPS classes.

Agreed. This would balance weapon choices.

Without running any numbers im guessing that would put dps around equal to a frenzied barbarian.... not counting that piece of insanity they call supreme cleave...

[nbhs275]

Agreed. This would balance weapon choices.

Without running any numbers im guessing that would put dps around equal to a frenzied barbarian.... not counting that piece of insanity they call supreme cleave...

16 str from their rage is +8 damage main, 4 offhand, or 12 on a 2hander. Nevermind the 6d6 insanity damage.

As is, the kensia gets a max of 8 main, 8 offhand, or just 10 with a 2hander. We have no answer for the 21 avg vicious damage a swing. If we had +1 range +1 multiplier, it would perserve the balance between the different weapon types, be about the same strength of the barbarians +2 multiplier, tho a different flavor.

But to balance the damage aspect as compared to a berserker or tempest, the extra damage bonus really should be doubled, to +2 on S&B TWF and ranged, and +4 on two handers. A constant 10 on each hand compared to the barbs STR based 8/4, and 14 to their 12. We get slightly more base, they get the large dice boost. And fighters get the niche of being a consistant, moderatly high damage dealer against all enemies, barbarians get the top tier burst damage, and rangers are the best against their FE. Seems fair all around.

[Monkey_Archer]

16 str from their rage is +8 damage main, 4 offhand, or 12 on a 2hander. Nevermind the 6d6 insanity damage.

As is, the kensia gets a max of 8 main, 8 offhand, or just 10 with a 2hander. We have no answer for the 21 avg vicious damage a swing. If we had +1 range +1 multiplier, it would perserve the balance between the different weapon types, be about the same strength of the barbarians +2 multiplier, tho a different flavor.

But to balance the damage aspect as compared to a berserker or tempest, the extra damage bonus really should be doubled, to +2 on S&B TWF and ranged, and +4 on two handers. A constant 10 on each hand compared to the barbs STR based 8/4, and 14 to their 12. We get slightly more base, they get the large dice boost. And fighters get the niche of being a consistant, moderatly high damage dealer against all enemies, barbarians get the top tier burst damage, and rangers are the best against their FE. Seems fair all around.

Yeah, im guessing FB would do more damage mainly due to the vicious, which has the drawback of self damage, so it makes sense and balances out (or close enough i think).

damage,attack,seeker could be close to vicious damage and str bonus.
+1 range and multiplier would be a bit better then +2 multiplier 19-20.....
but powersurge doesnt even compare to supreme cleave.

seems pretty fair to me... if only ac actually did something then it might equal the barb's DR