Fighter Kensai Preview

[EKKM]

I already posted some suggestions on defence, although it is hard to quantify those.

So I fixed DDO, now onto world peace..

[Aesop]

So using thses numbers as a basis we are assuming that S&B need to increase from about 45% offensive effectiveness to about 60%, or an increase of 33%.

A few ideas (not all need be used and not all may be feaible to program);
1- allow the use if shield bash when not blocking, i beleive it is referred to as adding hooks to the animation
2- add enhancements which provide an alactrity bonus when fighting with a shield
3- the subject of this thread, the Kensai provides a solid damage boost for fighters. Although it does benefit TWF moreso, that really serves to just equalize TWF fighters to TWF rangers and barbs. Perhaps the future fighter PrEs will eliminate this choice however (i.e Defender may be just to good for S&B to consider Kensai)
4- my above mentioned increase in mob fortification does more to reduce TWF offense than S&B so provides a relative increase to S&B DPS.
5- add guard effects to shields

Others may have more ideas.

OK this is a bit off topic for this thread as its specifically about the Kensai enhancement... I suggest moving over to a different thread.

feel free to come over here
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=163189

as this is where I've been making suggestions and revamping suggestions and etc

however to address what you have here

1- allow the use if shield bash when not blocking, i beleive it is referred to as adding hooks to the animation

Shield Bashing (or how to marginally improve S&B Damage):


a:One perhaps two passive Shield Bashing Attacks based on attack sequence. Perhaps on the second and fourth or fifth attack in a sequence have a shield bash hook.

b: The Feat Improved Shield Bash could have a new effect built in that when a character Blocks an attack the amount of damage blocked is reflected back at the attacker.

2- add enhancements which provide an alactrity bonus when fighting with a shield

I actually suggested earlier in this thread that Kensai in the first 2 tiers add a small % (probably no higher than 5%)increase in attack speed while using the Favored Weapon. This attack speed would NOT stack with Tempest

3- the subject of this thread, the Kensai provides a solid damage boost for fighters. Although it does benefit TWF moreso, that really serves to just equalize TWF fighters to TWF rangers and barbs. Perhaps the future fighter PrEs will eliminate this choice however (i.e Defender may be just to good for S&B to consider Kensai)

Unless the Defensive PrE also improves the Damage of Shield fighting (significantly) it will still get plowed under by a light fighter build

4- my above mentioned increase in mob fortification does more to reduce TWF offense than S&B so provides a relative increase to S&B DPS.

Ceartain Mobs should and do have Fort... however adding Fort to mobs would actually only help Tempest builds as the Large Crit effects would no longer be effective thus reducing the effectiveness of Rogues Barbarians Paladins and Fighters vrs these Mobs

5- add guard effects to shields

Guard effects, while they would be an interesting Add to shield fighting and could make for some interesting shields would not really fix the problem. I like the idea over all but again its not soley an equipment thing, the styles themselves are imbalanced.


Aesop

[Desteria]

I just got to say at the high levels we are at there really isn't much place for S&B in regular dnd at least 3.5. Other then melee tactics its all about spellcasters, high dps melee, and archers. All this indignation with and need for S&B love well in pnp S&B at high levels are not that great so why are you getting so worked up. The S&B should actually be disappearing from the game because this game is based on dnd.

Hey my High level PnP 3.5 S&B Melle resents that remark.. HOWEVER his S&B was a GREATSWORD and ANIMATED TOWER SHEILD High AC with decent DPS not raging barbarian dps but I was a dwarven defender, so virtual untouchable PnP AC, while still dealign sweet damage, it worked well since healign resorces are a bit more limited in PnP where money for consumables actuly matters

Any way I now return you to your regularly sceduled disscution.

[Desteria]

Normal 5 numbers ...Weapon damage+Holy+acid+slicing+Shield Energy
Crit 6 numbers...Weapon damage+Holy+acid+acid burst+slicing+Shield Energy
natural 20 7 Numbers ....Weapon damage+Holy+acid+acid burst+acid blast+slicing+Shield Energy

Wouldn't that be awesome to see. (Yeah I know peeps with Sneak attack see that many numbers.)

Don;t you have Force Ritual on all your DPS weapons?

MY melle already all see stuff like this

Weapon+Sneak(VoD goggles)+Force+holy+Slicing+acid
Then add one for bursts and Blasts, or Monk Ki attacks wich with Tier 3's eventualy would add Another number on crits as well... you could get up to
Weapon+sneak+force+Holy+acid+acid burst+acid burst+acid blast+Ki damage+ki crit damage..... a monk right now could get 10 numbers!!!!

[maddmatt70]

Hey my High level PnP 3.5 S&B Melle resents that remark.. HOWEVER his S&B was a GREATSWORD and ANIMATED TOWER SHEILD High AC with decent DPS not raging barbarian dps but I was a dwarven defender, so virtual untouchable PnP AC, while still dealign sweet damage, it worked well since healign resorces are a bit more limited in PnP where money for consumables actuly matters

Any way I now return you to your regularly sceduled disscution.

I had a dwarven defender once myself with a monkey gripped greatsword as a matter of fact. The bad guys never attacked him which is what he always wanted them to do (it was always best when they attacked him instead of his friends the casters, healers, and offensive melee), but instead attacked the other players unless the dm felt sorry for him. There was an occasional mindless mob who attacked him because he always tried to charge into the middle of any bad mob he saw.

I did whatever I could to get mobs to attack him even had an arrow catching shield and would have the party stand right next to him when archers were shooting at the party but the bad guys just went after the casters and everybody squishy and more threatening first and then found a way to whittle down my character after others were incapacitated. I didn't have great mobility so somebody could just spring attack me or fly above me in essence or cast a silly spell at me, and if I ever caught somebody I couldn't kill things quickly in comparison to others, but at least I had a shield.. haha..

[Emili]

[QUOTE=Aerendil;1947531]Maybe I didn't play 3.0 or 3.5 enough, or maybe I just played non-munchkin campaigns, but seeing stuff like that makes me roll my eyes.

"I'm going to attack you and hit you for 10 damage + holy + acid + flaming + icy + icy burst + acid burst + good + slicing + radiance damage!!!11!"

Seriously. Doesn't anyone else see anything odd about the weapons currently ingame?[/QUOTE]


The symptom of a over-generous DM... Most campaigns we've run were less magical, Clerics, Mage's, etc... were special, Warriors, Rogues, etc... still more elite and average people more common... thus less magic item rich... I've know people in PnP attempt craft icy bursting/flaming mighty cleaving vorpal greatswords of xxxx and when I was DM... I would 1.) make the materials to produce such items so scares they had to quest them out in many quests... ie.) the balast glands of a mature red dragon, the bicep of a stone giant, etc... they had to hunt. 2.) make it an overly complicated process to produce the item... 3.) allow for a margin of error based on their crafting skill vs lvl of objects^2 for the crafting to fail in process... and... 4.) allow for the crafting error go unnoticed x% based on crafting knowledge thus the item back-fires in use thus hurting, maiming or ever so sad killing the user.

[assamite]

• S&B: Low DPS, high AC.
• TWF: High DPS, decent AC.
• THF: Higer DPS, practically no AC

Lol, ran numbers and my TWF is going to have more ac than any sheild could get you <.< lol i know the're are some of you who like kensai and other who do not. I personaly believe its a gift from god for the fighter XD seriously. Not gona post me build or anything but i will post ac and dmg. AND GO MONK lol because monk is your friend and 11+11+8+6+5+5+5+3+1+1+1+1=58 dualing unbuffed +4insight,+4sheild,+4madstone,+5FAB= 75 selfbuffed <.< looks sexie to me. just had to go robe and bracers ditch armor mastery and invest those AP in Fighter armor boost why not XD lol. Kensai provides enough extra hit to run around with CE and or PA on so you can run around gangster with (+40 hit 26-33 x2 14-20 +20)lol orrr throw on madstone, power surge, PA and have (+40 hit 36-46 x2 14-20 +20) rofl this is of course if you go 18 fighter And MmmMmmmMmmmm, yummy 1d6 elemental spammage presuming you become centered with your weapon of choice, and would be overwhelmingly obsered if you don't. NOTE!!!! post did not take Weapon+sneak+force+Holy+acid+acid burst+acid burst+acid blast+Ki damage+ki into consideration because i wanted you to se fighter for fighter ^_^ not uber items XD

[Borror0]

Lol, ran numbers and my TWF is going to have more ac than any sheild could get you <.<

/facepalm

If you had read properly, you would have noticed that I said so as well, but I tagged it as a design flaw that had to be corrected as there no way S&B can still be viable for as long as TWF out-AC it on top of out-DPSing it. So, while it is possible right now, it shouldn't.

It is highly unbalancing. As I have said later in the thread, if you had bothered reading properly...

It was a description of what it should. Not what it is. A description of what it currently is would look like this:

• S&B: Crappy DPS, decent AC.
• THF: High DPS, practically no AC.
• TWF: Higher DPS, crazy high AC.

But, ideally, it should look like this:

• S&B: Low DPS, high AC.
• TWF: High DPS, decent AC.
• THF: Higer DPS, practically no AC

It was only 6 posts under if understanding my first post too complicated for you.

[assamite]

And prop for Kensai, would be sweet for 1HW to get +2 threat range and 2HW get +1 multiplier XD just throinw that out there.

[Desteria]

[shock] lol i started skimming through content from page 3 onword<.< rofl long ass thread.
TWF FTW!!!! FOREVER!!! and ever[devil] **** your S@B if you ****in have it, implament 60intim+ into your ****in build so that 45% or whatever dmg/dps numbers you ran doesnt happen to the rest of the ****in party and it happens to you. I have an S@B fighter, a twf previously posted and sry i "stepped on someones nuts with it"[plain] and a THF thats has 2 <.< 2 less ac than my TWF puttin him in the "crazy high ac" catagory [sarcastic] yes overpowered my imagination is. So overpowered i realized a S@B toon has 1 really UBER advantage over all others come on guess this one guess it!!! Dmotha****inR. since a S@B toons soul purpose shoud be to sheild block and intim why not make the most of it. **** hits you for 0 your guard hits **** for 600 partys happy. I mean.... im lvl 16 and my S@B toon is overpowered in the sence that i can say **** the sheild[shock].... throw on my +3 shocking burst falchion ROFL and hit **** with heavy fort for 45+dmg Yummmy Yummy Yummy being a fighter is ****in [thumbsup]. Sorry lvl 16 isnt like lvl 8 when sword and bord "was" the way to go for ac :/ and it pains me to say this but... the caps gona be 20 soon, its not anymore, and **** was bound to change. ****IN rofl nerf me and all the other twf out there with baddass ac and i will gladly reroll the toon again to **** someone with another way my imagination is more overpowered than others. *cough* mainly ******* named Borroro.[angry] nope, dont have to be a rocket scientist to comprehend that one [cool] /slaps forhead, im usually so nice on forums here borro ill let you punch my S@B toon in the face.




0...... 400
(\_/) (\_/)
~,.,~ x.x
(< >) <(< )
Assamite rolls a 2+62 intim success
Borro can't wait to hit him....
Borro hits Assamite but does no dmg 73 was stopped by Assamites DR
Assamite's items disintigration effect hit Borro for 400 dmg
Assamite says "whoops sorry man forgot to take that off, if only i had 75 ac and you missed me pffft to bad im sitting on 37[wink],go rez and come back down so i can hit you with a DC 50 imp trip and use the clickie on you to "

GS= time consuming effort "unless" your a rich bastard then its GS= There are some things money cant buy, and scales aren't one of them,[shock] "purification is however" hint hint to you casual players.[wink]

my brain hurts....

At least my hard to read posts normaly actuly have a point to them....

[TreknaQudane]

But, ideally, it should look like this:

Ideally, THF, and TWF should have the same AC.. you can TWF without being dex based, at most there should be about a four point difference between the two.

[Aesop]

my brain hurts....

At least my hard to read posts normaly actuly have a point to them....

screen shot or it didn't happen

[Borror0]

my Brain Hurts....

At Least My Hard To Read Posts Normaly Actuly Have A Point To Them....

LOL

Ideally, THF, and TWF should have the same AC.. you can TWF without being dex based, at most there should be about a four point difference between the two.

Two-Weapon Fighting is likely to get more AC with TWF, higher Dex and Tempest-like bonuses.

Not much of a difference, but still a few points.

[Ilundel]

Originally Posted by Borror0
S&B: Low DPS, high AC.
TWF: High DPS, decent AC.
THF: Higer DPS, practically no AC

Borror - This is where I somewhat disagree.. it should be:

S&B: Low DPS, high AC.
TWF: Higher single target DPS, High DPS overall, Decent AC
THF: High single target DPS, Higher DPS overall, Practically no AC.

Sure, getting a greataxe through the ribs is painfull, but getting two dwarven axes swung with equal force through both side of your rib cage should be as effective as that greataxe or worse... but then the greataxe should be able to keep moving through to other targets while the two dwarven axes are gonna have to stop there :P

[Aesop]

I disagree I had to say it


Sword and Board: Moderate DPS, High AC, High Damage Mitigation
TWF: High DPS, Moderate to High AC, Moderate Damage Mitigation
THF: Highest DPS, Moderate AC, Moderate to Low Damage Mitigation

Ranged: Moderate DPS, Moderate AC, Moderate to Low Damage Mitigation

But then again that's just me

Aesop

[maddmatt70]

I disagree I had to say it


Sword and Board: Moderate DPS, High AC, High Damage Mitigation
TWF: High DPS, Moderate to High AC, Moderate Damage Mitigation
THF: Highest DPS, Moderate AC, Moderate to Low Damage Mitigation

Ranged: Moderate DPS, Moderate AC, Moderate to Low Damage Mitigation

But then again that's just me

Aesop

Actually in pnp ranged is the most terrifying type of attack and really the only type of attack that has a shot against spellcasters/clerics. Ran around with an archer in a campaign who routinely did 200+ damage a round shooting a bow. He was also far far away from the fracas and with magic items had good escapability so didn't take much damage. Archers are absolutely scary in pnp, but in ddo they are total weaksauce. Ranged players in pnp take the least damage and does nearly the same damage per round as thf if not more.

[Aesop]

Actually in pnp ranged is the most terrifying type of attack and really the only type of attack that has a shot against spellcasters/clerics. Ran around with an archer in a campaign who routinely did 200+ damage a round shooting a bow. He was also far far away from the fracas and with magic items had good escapability so didn't take much damage. Archers are absolutely scary in pnp, but in ddo they are total weaksauce. Ranged players in pnp take the least damage and does nearly the same damage per round as thf if not more.

Shhh don't tell the melee that they would try to Nerf Ranged

I was banned from playing Archers in my home game thanks to a little character I called Auryan. I think it was killing the Red Dragon before he got an action that pushed it over the top... My DM still hasn't forgiven me

Aesop

[Borror0]

Borror - This is where I somewhat disagree.. it should be:

S&B: Low DPS, high AC.
TWF: Higher single target DPS, High DPS overall, Decent AC
THF: High single target DPS, Higher DPS overall, Practically no AC.

This is sort of what I was thinking about, except that I'd put TWF and THF nearly equal on single target, with THF best on multiple targets.

[assamite]

S@B: Suck ass dps, Can take an as whoopin
TWF: Extreme dps, Dodges ass whoopins
THF: Good, bad? im the +5 semi, Dodges whoopins and or meat shield

Yes pnp.... pnp..... i dont play this game because it's like pnp, if this game was like pnp i wouldn't play it..... i would play pnp....

[Desteria]

Actually in pnp ranged is the most terrifying type of attack and really the only type of attack that has a shot against spellcasters/clerics. Ran around with an archer in a campaign who routinely did 200+ damage a round shooting a bow. He was also far far away from the fracas and with magic items had good escapability so didn't take much damage. Archers are absolutely scary in pnp, but in ddo they are total weaksauce. Ranged players in pnp take the least damage and does nearly the same damage per round as thf if not more.

QFT

Totaly second what Norg is sayign about PnP archers... they tend to be a bit mroe gear dependint then a THF PA guy, they gain a LOT form stuf flike holy bows etc due to high attakc rate, (just like TWF does in DDO actuly), But they can do frightnign damage whole remaning relativly safe.