Fighter Kensai Preview

[Grimdiegn]

I would make it whatever the rules were when (I think) it was introduced in Oriental Adventures hardcover?

I'm not worried about balances, let the devs do that. I would just like to build a monk like I did in PnP.

[Borror0]

I would just like to build a monk like I did in PnP.

I would also let monks have crazy AC while dishing top notch DPS...

[query]

...
You got to understand that a S&B DPS character is a flawed concept. There is nothing you can do about it via a PrE.

When we are max EPIC level and everything else is released and Eldarin (or whomever is doing the reelases or information then) says that, then I will buy it as true. Speculating about something that can be updated or even changed is just that, speculating.


Even the (missing) MT is not as complete as a developer with all past and pending dynamic information.


Now stop posting your way or the highway and start learning the only constant is change.


Why I laughted at the DDO sayers of 13 red o doom for coming up on three years now.......wait, some said it was doomed pre-testing...make that OVER three years now.

[Borror0]

Speculating about something that can be updated or even changed is just that, speculating. [...]

Now stop posting your way or the highway and start learning the only constant is change.

Let me rephrase that:
"S&B DPS can only exist if you decide to either to back to a Module 2 era where AC was king and where DPS builds were wearing a shield or if Turbine finally decides that TWF are the real AC kings and makes of S&B better DPS builds than TWF. A third way could be debated if Turbine would allow shield bashing hooks while swinging in a manner that would allow insane DPS, however that most likely make of S&B the new overpowered build around and that is why I dismiss it.

DDO force us into overspecialization and that is a trend that cannot be changed as anything that will be added will go into that direction. That is simply the way thing goes. Nearly every feat, spell, piece of equipment and enhancement do that, if they are not worthless."

When deciding the optimal way to build your character, it is all about deciding which sacrifice are worth making. S&B sacrifice DPS by putting a shield on, however they gain AC. Conversely, THF sacrifice AC put gain DPS. Currently, TWF barely sacrifice anything and that is why it's overpowered.

You can't make fully DPS spec'd builds and S&B DPS builds be efficient in the same metagame. Unless you decide S&B is just a matter of aesthetics.

[nbhs275]

When we are max EPIC level and everything else is released and Eldarin (or whomever is doing the reelases or information then) says that, then I will buy it as true. Speculating about something that can be updated or even changed is just that, speculating.


Even the (missing) MT is not as complete as a developer with all past and pending dynamic information.


Now stop posting your way or the highway and start learning the only constant is change.


Why I laughted at the DDO sayers of 13 red o doom for coming up on three years now.......wait, some said it was doomed pre-testing...make that OVER three years now.

OK, its NOT speculation. Its simple math. 1 weapon does x damage. 2 weapons do 2x damage. No matter what you do, two weapons are going to do more damage then one, just like 2lbs of TnT are going to make a bigger hole then 1lb.

S&B is not a DPS setup, its a defensive set up. Because you are sacrificing potental DPS(THF or TWF) for the benefit of the shields AC and DR, both defensive attributes.

[query]

oh wait, looke here tempest!


As I said, wait and see. The concept of the THF was fewer attacks but potentially more damage (assuming the PA 2x damage vs 1.5 of course) vs the more potential hits but less damage per hit (and also based on the str penalties of the offhand) of TWF.....


then monks and TWF changed everything again.......

the math you act is constant...I act as a variable...

you use euclidian geometry looking at the constant state of a limited area....

I think non euclidian where the rules can be warped as something literally gets more power almost "sucking away" the force to itself from others as a black hole does.


No this is not 1+1 is 2, but more the Special Theory of relativity...which is about as insane to explain to your average Joe as the way the DDO rulesets evolved (thank you Borrow for your ammendment as that clearly shows the mutation instead of the evolution we have had at times.)

And if weapon 1 fails to hit it does 0 damage. But what if 2 hits compared to the greataxe which also is a burst but weapon 2 is a vorpal but the creature is red named but the greataxe is about 2 plusses down but the enhancements give it a boost about 15%..........


Yeah I've seen people do the math line by line...and sometimes you get two "perfectly logical and completely different results."


While we like to think the system we have is basic, if that were so, we culd not have so many overpowered underpowered and realocated powered (whether you cry broken or nerf) changes.


Once the math said warforged must spend x enhancements to gain their abilities. Now that is a null set. That changed a LOT of variables.


As i said, wait until everything is done, at least L 20 if not end of epic.......


which turn the standard combat rules on their ear...and who knows trhere what will be allowed, banned or altered........


Also:

as any good programmer knows,
you can change the value of a constant....


just ask the human pc's who once had versatility another way which made math problems a different way to solve before the "New math" change of boost timers.


Now my calculus isn't that good, but if you wish for me to apply the constant derivative against both positive and negative infinities...gimme some time to restudy

Finally going back to algrbra II...i could look up the imaginary divide by 0 i thing and use that BS locic system applied to fantasy since this is a fantasy game with completely insanely different rulesets for player vs mob abilities.

Alas, logic (daughter of philosophy) is only an agreed upon system of paths, even yes no is trumped by XOR.

So leave your "constants" at the door where again the only constant is change.


The rest is one big freaking variable, even in DDO.

OK, its NOT speculation. Its simple math. 1 weapon does x damage. 2 weapons do 2x damage. No matter what you do, two weapons are going to do more damage then one, just like 2lbs of TnT are going to make a bigger hole then 1lb.

S&B is not a DPS setup, its a defensive set up. Because you are sacrificing potental DPS(THF or TWF) for the benefit of the shields AC and DR, both defensive attributes.

[Mhykke]

oh wait, looke here tempest!


As I said, wait and see. The concept of the THF......

......

[Borror0]

thank you Borrow for your ammendment as that clearly shows the mutation instead of the evolution we have had at times.

DPS S&B can only become a viable option if we throw away all we currently know about S&B.

While it is possible, I am not sure it is desirable.

[SteeleTrueheart]

DPS S&B can only become a viable option if we throw away all we currently know about S&B.

While it is possible, I am not sure it is desirable.

I vaguely remember that KotOR had single handed fighting feats, I assume the same and similar enhancements could be done.

Realistically though the whole concept is sword and BOARD. An S&B character should get something for wearing the shield (Defense in some form or other), not for weilding the weapon (DPS), currently they don't. If you want DPS you go THF or TWF. Shield users need to be given something that makes using a shield worthwhile and that has to be of a defensive nature.

[nbhs275]

oh wait, looke here tempest!


As I said, wait and see. The concept of the THF was fewer attacks but potentially more damage (assuming the PA 2x damage vs 1.5 of course) vs the more potential hits but less damage per hit (and also based on the str penalties of the offhand) of TWF.....


then monks and TWF changed everything again.......

the math you act is constant...I act as a variable...

you use euclidian geometry looking at the constant state of a limited area....

I think non euclidian where the rules can be warped as something literally gets more power almost "sucking away" the force to itself from others as a black hole does.


No this is not 1+1 is 2, but more the Special Theory of relativity...which is about as insane to explain to your average Joe as the way the DDO rulesets evolved (thank you Borrow for your ammendment as that clearly shows the mutation instead of the evolution we have had at times.)

And if weapon 1 fails to hit it does 0 damage. But what if 2 hits compared to the greataxe which also is a burst but weapon 2 is a vorpal but the creature is red named but the greataxe is about 2 plusses down but the enhancements give it a boost about 15%..........


Yeah I've seen people do the math line by line...and sometimes you get two "perfectly logical and completely different results."


While we like to think the system we have is basic, if that were so, we culd not have so many overpowered underpowered and realocated powered (whether you cry broken or nerf) changes.


Once the math said warforged must spend x enhancements to gain their abilities. Now that is a null set. That changed a LOT of variables.


As i said, wait until everything is done, at least L 20 if not end of epic.......


which turn the standard combat rules on their ear...and who knows trhere what will be allowed, banned or altered........


Also:

as any good programmer knows,
you can change the value of a constant....


just ask the human pc's who once had versatility another way which made math problems a different way to solve before the "New math" change of boost timers.


Now my calculus isn't that good, but if you wish for me to apply the constant derivative against both positive and negative infinities...gimme some time to restudy

Finally going back to algrbra II...i could look up the imaginary divide by 0 i thing and use that BS locic system applied to fantasy since this is a fantasy game with completely insanely different rulesets for player vs mob abilities.

Alas, logic (daughter of philosophy) is only an agreed upon system of paths, even yes no is trumped by XOR.

So leave your "constants" at the door where again the only constant is change.


The rest is one big freaking variable, even in DDO.

Rangers actually where always a good class, but it got a poor rep because of the morons running around with a bow.

WF where suppose to get their immunities and abilities naturally. It wasnt so much of an "increase" as giving them their normal abilities. So there isnt any aspect of DDO changing the races role.

Also, debating race or class to combat style is rather a poor idea. Its like comparing tomatos to eggs.

Your trying to hard to make yourself sound intelligent, and are stepping over your own feet. The theory of relativity is pretty simple if you think about it. E=MC^2 mass x speed of light in a vacuum squared. It desribes the converstion of mass to energy. The rest of the theory deals with the effects of the equation, and how perspective has its effects.

Basically, it all boils down to the fact that S&B is fighting with 1 stick that is only ever going to do X. TWF is fighting with 2 sticks, which is going to do X+Y. And considering that a weapon is unable to actually do negative damage, is always > 0. And if you don't understand that, then please, show me a true example that supports your arguement. And if there is no support for your arguement, then your arguement has no logical base to stand on.

There has never been any time when S&B was meant to be a DPS role, and there isn't any that has been reported to us. One can make the logical leap and informed guess that it isnt intended, and wont happen.

[EKKM]

Let me rephrase that:
"S&B DPS can only exist if you decide to either to back to a Module 2 era where AC was king and where DPS builds were wearing a shield or if Turbine finally decides that TWF are the real AC kings and makes of S&B better DPS builds than TWF. A third way could be debated if Turbine would allow shield bashing hooks while swinging in a manner that would allow insane DPS, however that most likely make of S&B the new overpowered build around and that is why I dismiss it.

DDO force us into overspecialization and that is a trend that cannot be changed as anything that will be added will go into that direction. That is simply the way thing goes. Nearly every feat, spell, piece of equipment and enhancement do that, if they are not worthless."

When deciding the optimal way to build your character, it is all about deciding which sacrifice are worth making. S&B sacrifice DPS by putting a shield on, however they gain AC. Conversely, THF sacrifice AC put gain DPS. Currently, TWF barely sacrifice anything and that is why it's overpowered.

You can't make fully DPS spec'd builds and S&B DPS builds be efficient in the same metagame. Unless you decide S&B is just a matter of aesthetics.

I agree, currently the traditional DnD combat style balance is destroyed beyond all recognition. TWF can do higher DPS and have a higher AC than S&B or THF. THF is on its way to being fixed (I think) in a way that is radically different than how it functions in PnP, I think the S&B fix needs to be the same departure to make it viable.

Also, stat damaging and effects are ruling the game for the most part, so TWF and now THF will rule in that area as they either occur more often (TWF) or affect more mobs (THF) than S&B can possibly do.

IMO, the only way to make S&B a viable option is to accept the fact that it is offesively limited and give it other benefits. First, increase the casual gamer S&B AC so it is the same as the casual gamer TWF AC though enhancments, PrEs or better shields. Second, improve the shield blocking mechanic by having a portion of it constant to provide damage mitigation to partially offset the DPS deficiency. Third, put some "guard" effects on shields like blind, stun etc. to provide some CC when intimidate is active.

Hopefully the two defender PrEs coming will provide an equalization of their effectiveness. Trying to give S&B comparable DPS is just not a viable option IMO, the benefits need to be damage mitigation and CC related.

As an aside, raid loot which does the above is not a fix for a significant portion of the population.

[Aerendil]

IMO, the only way to make S&B a viable option is to accept the fact that it is offesively limited and give it other benefits. First, increase the casual gamer S&B AC so it is the same as the casual gamer TWF AC though enhancments, PrEs or better shields. Second, improve the shield blocking mechanic by having a portion of it constant to provide damage mitigation to partially offset the DPS deficiency. Third, put some "guard" effects on shields like blind, stun etc. to provide some CC when intimidate is active.

Yep, and this is an argument I've seen a LOT in the past couple of months.
Right now, DDO is holding on dearly to some aspects of PnP D&D rules (i.e. armor class on items), while drastically straying in other aspects (i.e. WoP, +6 stat items, icy rainments, etc.), which makes for some really skewed characters.

I think Turbine realizes that S&B needs help. And there have been plenty of options put forth by the playerbase as to how to fix it (i.e. your shield perma-DR I've seen in another thread. I've also seen suggestions to put perma-DR on armor, especially the heavy armours, so as to give the non-Evasion folk *something*. Sure, you're not evasive with super AC, but you can absorb a hit that a robed character can't!).
End result, though, is that something needs to be done for S&B.

Kensai clearly isn't any help to them, but we expected that, really. A PrE that improves weapon specialization benefits the people that will dual-wield that weapon more than the person who uses that weapon + shield.
I guess we'll just have to wait and see what other changes come to pass.
The THF changes, for instance, were completely out of the blue (and appreciated). So for all we know, S&B changes could be right around the corner...

/fingers crossed.

[EKKM]

There are two defensive PrE's expected for mod 9 which seem to cater to S&B - The dwarven Defender (which doesnt have to be dwarven) for fighters and the Defender of Siberys for Pallys. Hopefully they give us boost and don't become the Deepwood Sniper of the fighter class.

There is no real info on either though.

[Borror0]

TWF can do higher DPS and have a higher AC than S&B or THF. THF is on its way to being fixed (I think) in a way that is radically different than how it functions in PnP, I think the S&B fix needs to be the same departure to make it viable.

Depending on what we mean, we may disagree.

The changes made to THF were elegant. They are quite simple. Easy to understand the moment you used a two-handed weapon a couple of time. Easy to balance, as it works in percentage. TWF has gotten overpowered as it is possible for them to reach insane AC. That will have to be corrected, not accepted.

S&B, other other hand, as yet to receive anything. Hence why it is behind TWF and THF. It has to be made viable somehow.

There are two options to take:

• Make of S&B the defensive option again.
• Make of S&B a good DPS option and try to justify that logically. (Good luck!)

I know it is a very biased presentation, but quite honestly I have a lot of difficulty in accepting that someone could logically want to defend option #2. "Putting a shield on makes you deal more DPS." Unless it is magically enchanted, it does make any sense.

If we take option #1, we are faced with another dilemma:

• Make of S&B the king of AC once again.
• Make of S&B the king of defense, but leave AC to TWF.

Personally, I think it'd be best to go with option #1.

If you remember what I said earlier on about the modification they did to THF, I said it was elegant. It's elegant because it is simple, easy to understand and easy for them to balance. There is very little variable that makes you worried. Maybe Vorpal, Paralysers and Weighted but those can be playtested quite easily. One of the easiest way for any game developer to seriously mess up if to create something he has no comparison to. That's the problem with option #2.

If we add this and this and that... what do we got? None of us can answer. It will be an headache to balance.

Armor Class is easier to balance. They know the mobs to-hit, they know what AC each build can achieve. Check that things look fine. Done. If you add immunity to this and maybe that too, plus maybe DR and guard effects with a deflection... it does a lot of stuff to take into account. I'll even say too much.

S&B is also way too behind in DPS, but that is a different topic. An elegant fix can be found to this as well. Probably more than one.

Also, stat damaging and effects are ruling the game for the most part, so TWF and now THF will rule in that area as they either occur more often (TWF) or affect more mobs (THF) than S&B can possibly do.

We have to get rid of this demon soon.

Sta-damage is not fun. It takes forever, it's not creative and your efficiency is solely based on your fighting style and the weapon you use. Boring as well.

As an aside, raid loot which does the above is not a fix for a significant portion of the population.

I don't think I can emphasis this enough. I'll even add "plus it worsen another problem".

[Junts]

there are some simple fixes that could help, too, really

i think i would really favor something to the extent of increasing the str and a half for 2h weapons to strx2 (thats not that big a bonus for thf, not nearly game-breaking, though its quite nice), and then give strength and a half to any single weapon used without an offhand weapon (s/b or other hand empty).

im sure that's gonna spawn numerous *******, but the reality is that if you are positioning your body so to use one weapon in one hand, you are going to be putting more leverage, momentum and etc behind that arm's blows than you are if you are positioning and manuvering yourself to swing two weapons at once.

that's a net gain of 4-7 damage per swing for these builds, which is nice, but not a huge advantage. if that's deemed inadequate, you could eaisly look into doing the same thing with power attack (5/-5 for twf, 7-8/-5 for 1wf and 10/-5 for thf).

those are not that huge an advantage to either, but they would definitely bring both up dps wise relative to twf, without reducing twfs other advantages (number of chances to proc effects, attack speeds, etc).

[EKKM]

Depending on what we mean, we may disagree.

-----------

".

I don't think we disagree much here. We both agree that TWF is unbalanced and S&B needs help. We also both agree that giving S&B a massive dps increase is not a good idea.

I'm not sure giving S&B a constant DR is elegant, but it doesn't seem to be any harder to test that giving effects to THF glancing blows.

Adding guard type CC effects doesn't appear to be game breaking as TWF currently use them all the time, just replacing offensive CC with defensive CC.


I also agree that stat damaging weapons are not good for the game. The only thing I can think of is having fortification reduce the stat damage accordingly (i.e. wounding wont hit 75% of the time if mob has med fort) and to add fortification to certain, not all, mobs. I don't like certain mobs just being immune though. In conjunction with this, I think an increase in mob AC and a rediction in HP would also help a great deal here so it is possible for DPS to kill mobs on par with stat damage.

edit - a reduction in mob HP would also mean spell caster AoE spells would be more useful. Most arcanes I see are buffing and PK/fingering everything (with some CC thrown in). It would be nice to see a few more fireballs and cone of colds dropping HPs so melees can finish them off (or vice versa).

[Borror0]

I'm not sure giving S&B a constant DR is elegant, but it doesn't seem to be any harder to test that giving effects to THF glancing blows.

There is something about DR that I dislike. Just a bad feeling.

Adding guard type CC effects doesn't appear to be game breaking as TWF currently use them all the time, just replacing offensive CC with defensive CC.

Defensive guards are less powerful and harder to balance.

I also agree that stat damaging weapons are not good for the game. The only thing I can think of is having fortification reduce the stat damage accordingly (i.e. wounding wont hit 75% of the time if mob has med fort) and to add fortification to certain, not all, mobs.

Your life will come to an end soon. With that comment, you have all the stat-damagers AND all the rogues against you.

Seriously now, having stat-damage as a decent way to kill isn't a bad thing. It's having DPS as less attractive that is.

[Korvek]

Your life will come to an end soon. With that comment, you have all the stat-damagers AND all the rogues against you.

/Against increase in fortification to enemies.

[EKKM]

There is something about DR that I dislike. Just a bad feeling.

Defensive guards are less powerful and harder to balance.

Your life will come to an end soon. With that comment, you have all the stat-damagers AND all the rogues against you.

Seriously now, having stat-damage as a decent way to kill isn't a bad thing. It's having DPS as less attractive that is.

I still don't see how having a less powerful effect (defensive guards) than one already in the game is hard to balance. It does increase the power scale of the game slightly but that is unfortunately a given as a nerf isn't going to happen IMO.

As to more fortification on mobs, I never said all mobs, or even most mobs, I said certain mobs. I also never said all should have heavy fortification. I also said I don't like blanket immunities. One of the things I like about PnP DnD is that there isn't one way to always kill something. In DDO the WoP or even paired pucturers or wounders are that one way. Implimenting more fortification for CERTAIN mobs would provide a increase in effectivemness of straight DPS. In conjunction with a decrease in HP and increase in AC you will start to see DPS gain more prominence.

also you said:
We have to get rid of this demon soon.

Sta-damage is not fun. It takes forever, it's not creative and your efficiency is solely based on your fighting style and the weapon you use. Boring as well.
then said:
Seriously now, having stat-damage as a decent way to kill isn't a bad thing. It's having DPS as less attractive that is.

I've always assumed that not fun, taking forever, and being boring were bad things. I'm sure you realize that there cannot be an increase in DPS to bring it on par with stat damage. Consequently a nerf to stat damaging in conjunction with an increase in DPS is the only way to equalize the two. Is there another way to reduce stat damging effectiveness that I'm not considering?

Are you just arguing this point now because I'm from Ontario

[Borror0]

I still don't see how having a less powerful effect (defensive guards) than one already in the game is hard to balance. It does increase the power scale of the game slightly but that is unfortunately a given as a nerf isn't going to happen IMO.

Lego block explanation.

also you said:
We have to get rid of this demon soon.

Sta-damage is not fun. It takes forever, it's not creative and your efficiency is solely based on your fighting style and the weapon you use. Boring as well.
then said:
Seriously now, having stat-damage as a decent way to kill isn't a bad thing. It's having DPS as less attractive that is.

I've always assumed that not fun, taking forever, and being boring were bad things.

Swinging for hours is boring. However, it is not mandatory that stat-damage equals swinging for that long.

Having stat-damage as a viable option is a good thing. It gives Dex-based builds a reason to not be totally gimped. It also let rogues use w/e weapons.

I'm sure you realize that there cannot be an increase in DPS to bring it on par with stat damage. Consequently a nerf to stat damaging in conjunction with an increase in DPS is the only way to equalize the two. Is there another way to reduce stat damging effectiveness that I'm not considering?

Increase in DPS? There is no need for that part

Are you just arguing this point now because I'm from Ontario

Not at all. I usually don't argue with Ontarians. Consider that an honor.